# Penn St. hit hard **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [July 23, 2012, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/penn-st-hit-hard/629138 "2012-07-23T15:17:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![Hippy\_Hollow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hippy_hollow/32/4841_2.png) [@Hippy\_Hollow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hippy_Hollow)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2012, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/penn-st-hit-hard/629138/181 "2012-07-24T16:03:22Z")
Yeah, my money was on a PSU alumnus to put their foot in their mouth during this time. It’s the Paternos. They would be well advised to not say a damn thing right now. Time has a way of correcting legacies. Nixon’s legacy improved many years after Watergate. I think there is a lot of anger at PSU and Paterno right now; as time passes, maybe there will be a more sympathetic view of his role. (I don’t necessarily agree, but I don’t have a crystal ball.) Being quiet for a good long while is probably the best they can do to preserve his legacy _aside_ from this horrible chapter. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2012, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/penn-st-hit-hard/629138/182 "2012-07-24T16:08:40Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > I’d like to see Penn State challenge this in court. Somebody has to stand up to the NCAA once and for all. > … > The NCAA over reached this time. I hope Penn State has the guts to fight this stupidity. > [@Accidental\_Martyr](#): > > Penn State has agreed to the NCAA sanctions. Indeed, having read some more, it seems that the penalties we’re seeing _are_ the deal Penn State was able to salvage. The NCAA _did_ consider laying a “death penalty” on them, but agreed to step back from that in exchange for Penn State’s written acceptance of this package, so that both institutions could hope to begin putting the nightmare behind them. > [@Marley23](#): > > Apparently one reason Penn State accepted these sanctions was that even tougher ones - including a four-year football ban - were discussed. Yep. The NCAA is still a little chickenshit for pretending that what they dealt out here was somehow worse than a death penalty (and commentators who repeated that line are dopes), but given that they decided to bring the hammer down swiftly and without their own additional investigation, getting Penn State’s immediate formal submission counts for something. Also, it seems that the NCAA is considering _not_ counting the scholarships of PSU players who transfer against the allotments of their new schools. Which means that even in trickle-down theory, _no college football players anywhere_ would lose their opportunities. And, of course, it means that the pool of players who might be persuaded right now to leave Penn State is more attractive than ever. There must be some furious second-wave recruiting going for those guys. ---
**Author:** ![Labrador\_Deceiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7c8e57/32.png) [@Labrador\_Deceiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Labrador_Deceiver)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2012, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/penn-st-hit-hard/629138/183 "2012-07-24T18:08:40Z")
> [@brickbacon](#): > > Even using the dates of a know event? It seems a fairly broad, damning claim like this would be fairly easy to substantiate via something other than one’s memory. The story in question has been linked to multiple times in this thread. ---
**Author:** ![brickbacon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/898d66/32.png) [@brickbacon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brickbacon)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2012, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/penn-st-hit-hard/629138/184 "2012-07-24T18:23:25Z")
> [@Labrador\_Deceiver](#): > > The story in question has been linked to multiple times in this thread. Can you help me with a link then? ---
**Author:** ![kidchameleon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/898d66/32.png) [@kidchameleon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kidchameleon)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2012, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/penn-st-hit-hard/629138/185 "2012-07-24T18:58:59Z")
> [@brickbacon](#): > > Can you help me with a link then? [Here](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=15306167&postcount=171). ---
**Author:** ![brickbacon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/898d66/32.png) [@brickbacon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brickbacon)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2012, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/penn-st-hit-hard/629138/186 "2012-07-24T19:18:01Z")
> [@kidchameleon](#): > > [Here](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=15306167&postcount=171). Thanks. Pretty damning stuff. ---
**Author:** ![That\_Don\_Guy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/that_don_guy/32/538_2.png) [@That\_Don\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/That_Don_Guy)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2012, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/penn-st-hit-hard/629138/187 "2012-07-24T19:28:02Z")
> [@Peremensoe](#): > > Penn State is losing a _total_ of 20 scholarship slots per year for four years (reducing the annual allotment from 85 to 65). For each year, 10 of those 20 must be _initial_ scholarships (reducing the annual allotment of initial scholarships from 25 to 15). Actually, for some strange reason, while the reduction to 15 “initial counters” (i.e. someone receiving a football scholarship anywhere for the first time) starts in the 2013 season, the reduction to 65 total scholarships starts in the 2014 season. Each lasts for four seasons. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2012, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/penn-st-hit-hard/629138/188 "2012-07-24T19:35:45Z")
> [@brickbacon](#): > > First, most organizations don’t have a team to protect. Organizations are protecting themselves. Whether it’s a team, a company, or a religion there are always reasons. The fact that it’s a football team is irrelevant. > [@](#): > > Second, **how do you know**? Have you ever worked in a high enough position where such decisions are typically made? If you had asked anyone at PSU a few years back, what do you think they would have said? If you honestly think Apple’s board wouldn’t have covered up crimes committed by Steve Jobs, or that Facebook executives wouldn’t cover up something Zuckerberg did, you are fooling yourself. Yes, this exact situation, a cover up of child abuse, will likely never arise, but organizations cover up serious things all the time for a variety of reasons. These are good points, and the situation in the Roman Catholic church is a good parallel. But the point is that both organizations were abnormal. If Facebook or Apple did the same thing, they would be abnormal. I believe it is possible but unlikely that individuals in either company could pull off something like that and maintain secrecy for long enough, or would want to. It’s just too abhorrent. > [@](#): > > Paterno, et al., did much of what they should have during this particular incident. The mistakes were allowing him to have emeritus status, and not informing Second Mile and other relevant parties of the accusations. Once they take that somewhat understandable half measure, they are arguably complicit in the future actions of Sandusky. That slippery slope is, IMO, what lead to coverups and inaction far more than trying to “protect football”. No, it goes well beyond that. Paterno took an active roll in covering up the problem and changing the minds of the administration who planned to report this to the authorities. It wasn’t a slippery slope; it was a calculated decision at least by my reading of the report. The measures taken were not “somewhat reasonable”, they were reprehensible and representative of a culture gone bad. ---
**Author:** ![sachertorte](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sachertorte/32/3727_2.png) [@sachertorte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sachertorte)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2012, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/penn-st-hit-hard/629138/189 "2012-07-24T19:55:15Z")
> [@kidchameleon](#): > > [Here](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=15306167&postcount=171). Holy crap. That is both surprising and unsurprising at the same time. I feel bad for that admin. It must have been terribly hard for her. What makes Penn State look even _worse_ is that when they get a decent admin who apparently was trying to do the right thing, she gets harassed and asked to re-evalute her future at Penn State. ---
**Author:** ![brickbacon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/898d66/32.png) [@brickbacon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brickbacon)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2012, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/penn-st-hit-hard/629138/190 "2012-07-24T19:59:59Z")
> [@Telemark](#): > > Organizations are protecting themselves. Whether it’s a team, a company, or a religion there are always reasons. The fact that it’s a football team is irrelevant. Of course it’s irrelevant. That’s the point. Why are you punishing the football team when the program’s tangential involvement is incidental at best. All the guilty parties are gone. What you have left are innocent people. Why punish them? > [@Telemark](#): > > These are good points, and the situation in the Roman Catholic church is a good parallel. But the point is that both organizations were abnormal. If Facebook or Apple did the same thing, they would be abnormal. I believe it is possible but unlikely that individuals in either company could pull off something like that and maintain secrecy for long enough, or would want to. It’s just too abhorrent. They are only abnormal in the sense that most crimes are not subject to workplace disclosure. The fact that people don’t report crimes, even serious ones, even when they are mandatory reporters, is pretty widespread. That said, why do you think a coverup is unlikely to be successful? > [@Telemark](#): > > No, it goes well beyond that. Paterno took an active roll in covering up the problem and changing the minds of the administration who planned to report this to the authorities. My comments were limited to the first incident. The one where the DA declined to press charges. What actions should they have taken that they didn’t? ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2012, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/penn-st-hit-hard/629138/191 "2012-07-24T21:00:06Z")
> [@brickbacon](#): > > Of course it’s irrelevant. That’s the point. Why are you punishing the football team when the program’s tangential involvement is incidental at best. All the guilty parties are gone. What you have left are innocent people. Why punish them? Because the football team, and the cult of Paterno and “We are Penn State” are the motivating factor for all the offenses. The desire here was to protect the football team and Joe Pa’s legacy at all costs. It’s necessary to tear the entire structure down and rebuild from scratch. The players are certainly being affected, but they are not the victims here. The football players are being given opportunities to transfer to other schools or stay and get an education. It’s also a message to other schools that the cult of football will not be tolerated; if they go down that road they will be disassembled brick by brick. That’s the only thing that will get the attention of the schools that are headed down a similar road. > [@](#): > > My comments were limited to the first incident. The one where the DA declined to press charges. What actions should they have taken that they didn’t? I missed that, sorry. Not sure about the first incident since I haven’t read much on that. But it’s clear that eventually Paterno took an active role in covering up Sandusky’s activities. I don’t think there’s any way to view that as anything but self-serving at the expense of innocent children. Everyone involved, and the organization that fostered that culture deserves punishment. I don’t view this as a slippery slope; Paterno’s actions and the actions of those around him were abhorrent and no amount of “somewhat understandable half-measures” can ameliorate their guilt. The current football players are unfortunately affected but they have options. The Penn State student body and surrounding businesses will have to deal and move on. ---
**Author:** ![kidchameleon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/898d66/32.png) [@kidchameleon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kidchameleon)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2012, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/penn-st-hit-hard/629138/192 "2012-07-24T21:06:01Z")
> [@brickbacon](#): > > Of course it’s irrelevant. That’s the point. Why are you punishing the football team when the program’s tangential involvement is incidental at best. All the guilty parties are gone. What you have left are innocent people. Why punish them? For deterrence. If the only punishment for being caught covering up unethical practices is to remove those caught doing so, there’s no reason not to cover it up. If they get found out, they get fired but the culture remains the same, no need for the institution to have control over their athletic programs. ---
**Author:** ![RaftPeople](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/6f9a4e/32.png) [@RaftPeople](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RaftPeople)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2012, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/penn-st-hit-hard/629138/193 "2012-07-24T22:17:18Z")
I’m kind of laughing to myself about the B10 sanctions of no championship game. They have cleverly walked the line of trying to appear to send a message, while at the same time choosing something that wasn’t going to happen anyway due to the NCAA sanctions. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2012, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/penn-st-hit-hard/629138/194 "2012-07-24T22:52:48Z")
> [@RaftPeople](#): > > I’m kind of laughing to myself about the B10 sanctions of no championship game. > > They have cleverly walked the line of trying to appear to send a message, while at the same time choosing something that wasn’t going to happen anyway due to the NCAA sanctions. Actually I thought Penn State was already barred from the conference championship as well as bowl games, under the NCAA penalty. Not that it makes much difference, as you say. It’s a gesture. > [@Big Ten Council of Presidents and Chancellors](#): > > They have failed their great university, their faculty and staff, their students and alumni, their community and state–and they have failed their fellow member institutions in the Big Ten Conference. For these failures, committed at the highest level of the institution, we hereby condemn this conduct and officially censure Penn State. Ooh. ---
**Author:** ![Bartman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/779978/32.png) [@Bartman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bartman)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2012, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/penn-st-hit-hard/629138/195 "2012-07-25T00:23:29Z")
> [@brickbacon](#): > > Of course it’s irrelevant. That’s the point. Why are you punishing the football team when the program’s tangential involvement is incidental at best. All the guilty parties are gone. What you have left are innocent people. Why punish them? Because that is how you punish corporate wrong doing. A few years back my employer was investigated by the SEC (Securities and Exchange Commission) for insider trading. The guilty party was identified and fired. But the corporation was still heavy fined. Because that low level employee was a part of the body corporate. If a person stabs someone… we don’t just punish the offending hand (and arm) we punish the person. If a legal fiction person, like a corporation or a university, does wrong we punish the legal fiction person… even if the direct offenders are no longer associated with that body. Don’t like it? Then you need to go back and undo about 100 years of legal precedent. Who do you imagine is paying the price when say Microsoft is fined a few million dollars for one thing or another? ---
**Author:** ![brickbacon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/898d66/32.png) [@brickbacon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brickbacon)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2012, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/penn-st-hit-hard/629138/196 "2012-07-25T00:37:11Z")
> [@Telemark](#): > > Because the football team, and the cult of Paterno and “We are Penn State” are the motivating factor for all the offenses. The desire here was to protect the football team and Joe Pa’s legacy at all costs. It’s necessary to tear the entire structure down and rebuild from scratch. You know, everyone repeats this as gospel, and not having read all 267 pages of the Freeh report, maybe I am ignorant. But, is there any evidence that this was the case instead of just a normal CYA move? If the whole goal was to cover up for the football team, why was the first report given to the county DA? Why did Joe Paterno tell the president and the AD? Honestly, if you think Paterno is powerful enough to plan to coverup from day one in order to protect the team, why did he include more and more people? He could have easily told McQuery he told the cops, president, etc. without doing so. Why do you think his behavior is at all consistent with an all-powerful ruler trying to cover up for his program? I just don’t see it. Like I said, are there emails with him saying we have to protect the program, or is he justifiably worried that their foot dragging, obfuscation, and indifference made the liable and guilty. > [@Telemark](#): > > It’s also a message to other schools that the cult of football will not be tolerated; if they go down that road they will be disassembled brick by brick. That’s the only thing that will get the attention of the schools that are headed down a similar road. The school isn’t heading down any road, a few principle bad actors were, and there is no way to defend against that in a large institution. Especially if the standard is just a coverup or silence. Especially when a large percentage of people don’t report abuse even when they don’t have the institutional pressures working against them. By my count, 3 people, aside from Sandusky, involved in athletics were involved in this scandal. Paterno, the AD, and McQueary. One might argue McQueary, was not really involved too much in the cover up. How can a sports program guard against that if the actors don’t care about the consequences, or they decided to roll the dice? There are already extremely deleterious consequences for behaving the way Paterno did, why do you think hurting the football program that fired him, and is engaged in an effort to pretend he didn’t exist, is gonna stop the next coverup? Do you honestly think McQueary thought he made the right choice until yesterday? Paterno didn’t lose his scholarship. He is not going to have to pay $60mm. Anyone who argues this just doesn’t understand how incentives and deterrents work. The NCAA sanctions won’t work anymore than the actual death penalty deters people from committing murder. > [@Telemark](#): > > I missed that, sorry. Not sure about the first incident since I haven’t read much on that. But it’s clear that eventually Paterno took an active role in covering up Sandusky’s activities. I don’t think there’s any way to view that as anything but self-serving at the expense of innocent children. I do. It’s that you give this guy you know for 30 years the benefit of the doubt, thinking that maybe he just made a mistake. Maybe he just didn’t realize showering with a kid is way out of bounds. You think he has to go, but you don’t think the guy is a predator. You see the DA doesn’t press charges, and agree that maybe this is not a serious as it could be. Then you hear another, more serious accusation years later, and realize your previous decision were utterly wrong and hopelessly naive. You think nobody is gonna believe that you didn’t know this guy you knew for decades is a complete monster. You know it’s gonna come out that you lied and enabled this future behavior. You start to worry about how your friends and family and community will judge you. You panic. Then you figure your guilt and complicity cannot be assuaged by confessing, so you cover it up. And the longer it goes on, the more compromised you become. His actions, thought cowardly and thoughtless, do not strike me as a guy those of a man with no conscience; but rather as those of a man who lost his moral compass along the way in small, seemingly insignificant pieces. ---
**Author:** ![brickbacon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/898d66/32.png) [@brickbacon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brickbacon)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2012, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/penn-st-hit-hard/629138/197 "2012-07-25T00:54:56Z")
> [@kidchameleon](#): > > For deterrence. If the only punishment for being caught covering up unethical practices is to remove those caught doing so, there’s no reason not to cover it up. If they get found out, they get fired but the culture remains the same, no need for the institution to have control over their athletic programs. There is already sufficient deterrents for most all rational actors confronted with such choices. > [@Bartman](#): > > Because that is how you punish corporate wrong doing. A few years back my employer was investigated by the SEC (Securities and Exchange Commission) for insider trading. The guilty party was identified and fired. But the corporation was still heavy fined. Because that low level employee was a part of the body corporate. Yes, but also because **insider trading was a crime sufficiently related to the work being done at your company**. Should the company be fined if that employee covered up child rape committed by a fellow employee at a company event? Because that’s closer to what is being done here. Nobody would raise a brow if there were being punished for paying players, or telling their athletes to juice, because those infractions are RELATED TO THE “WORK” OF THE FOOTBALL PROGRAM. The program exists to put a team on the field, they are not tasked with preventing abuse or ensuring good citizenship on the part of employees. Although those are expectations we have of human beings, we don’t expect the institution to ensure compliance in those areas. > [@Bartman](#): > > Who do you imagine is paying the price when say Microsoft is fined a few million dollars for one thing or another? Show me a case where an institution was penalized by an outside entity for a unrelated crime committed by an employee. ---
**Author:** ![kidchameleon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/898d66/32.png) [@kidchameleon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kidchameleon)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2012, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/penn-st-hit-hard/629138/198 "2012-07-25T00:59:07Z")
> [@brickbacon](#): > > There is already sufficient deterrents for most all rational actors confronted with such choices. Based on the culture that exists at Penn State, I don’t agree. ---
**Author:** ![Zakalwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zakalwe/32/270_2.png) [@Zakalwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zakalwe)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2012, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/penn-st-hit-hard/629138/199 "2012-07-25T01:12:36Z")
> [@Mince](#): > > The actions of the administration in this case didn’t confer benefit to the football program, on field. They didn’t? You don’t think reporting a coach who helped you win two national championships as a child predator wouldn’t affect on-field competitiveness? Seriously? So here’s the deal, one of my employees sets up a program whereby any 5-star recruit that doesn’t sign with me is murdered. I get a whiff that the program is going on and demand that he retire! Immediately! 3 years later, I get a hint that the program is still going on, but I sweep that under the rug. You’re saying the NCAA shouldn’t punish the program? ---
**Author:** ![brickbacon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/898d66/32.png) [@brickbacon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brickbacon)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2012, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/penn-st-hit-hard/629138/200 "2012-07-25T01:18:12Z")
> [@kidchameleon](#): > > Based on the culture that exists at Penn State, I don’t agree. Again with this vague “culture” thing. Please explain to me how the culture at PSU is any different than what exists at around 25 other schools. Tell me where throughout this process you think the NCAA punishment would have led PSU to act differently, and why you think their compliance at that juncture would have prevent NCAA sanctions? More importantly, please let me know why you think this will prevent other coaches or employees at colleges from not reporting their close colleagues accused of crimes? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/penn-st-hit-hard/629138.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/penn-st-hit-hard/629138.md?page=11)