# Penn St. hit hard **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [July 23, 2012, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/penn-st-hit-hard/629138 "2012-07-23T15:17:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2012, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/penn-st-hit-hard/629138/21 "2012-07-23T16:43:07Z")
> [@Munch](#): > > I haven’t seen any serious discussion of killing the program forever. Were you under the impression that “the death penalty” permanently got rid of a football program? Yes, of course. Words usually mean what they usually mean. I know the word ‘death’ means different things in different contexts, but still it generally has the connotation of something coming to an end and not coming back. > [@Marley23](#): > > Nobody ever talked about getting rid of the program forever. There was talk about banning them from NCAA competition for one year. Too bad the NCAA can’t be penalized for unreasonable abuse to the English language. Their ‘death penalty’ sounds more like the guy in _Hitchhiker’s Guide_ who spent a year dead for tax reasons. Or like a year of house arrest, back here in our reality. Yeah, I’ll confess I was bamboozled and misled. > [@Mince](#): > > So you won’t mind if I steal $500 dollars from you every week when you make thousands? Of course I’ll mind, but the whole point is that this is supposed to be a _penalty_, not theft. It’s _supposed_ to hurt. So yeah, if a cop pulls me over for doing 70 in a 35 zone, and writes the ticket for 50 in a 35 zone with a much smaller fine coming as a result, you _bet_ I’m going to be thankful. > [@](#): > > So, will you thank me that I didn’t cut off your left hand when I cut off your right hand? Apparently ‘cut off your hand’ in this context means ‘cuff it to a post for a short time,’ so it’s not that bad, is it? ---
**Author:** ![Mince](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecd19e/32.png) [@Mince](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mince)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2012, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/penn-st-hit-hard/629138/22 "2012-07-23T16:46:24Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > It’s almost impossible to punish the school and the athletic department leadership without punishing the team…" Not true. Paterno was fired (and would have been, I think, criminally investigated had he not died—nice escape), Sandusky was jailed for life, and the bulk of the administration were fired and are suffering criminal investigations. That wraps it up nicely. [QUOTE=Marley23] The punishment to the football team is mitigated by the fact that they can transfer to other schools with no loss of eligibility if they don’t want to play for a team that is playing under these sanctions,… [/QUOTE] That’s not mitigation for the football team, it’s mitigation for individual players. Certainly, Penn St. will field a football team this year, 100% of whom will suffer undue sanctions. ---
**Author:** ![Skammer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skammer/32/143_2.png) [@Skammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skammer)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2012, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/penn-st-hit-hard/629138/23 "2012-07-23T16:48:08Z")
To put it in context, RTF: the last school hit with the NCAA “death penalty” was Southern Methodist University in 1987, who was barred from fielding a team for two years. That may not seem too bad, but it was _twenty_ years before they ever recovered enough to appear in their first bowl game following the penalty. IMO these penalties against PSU are harsher, even if it allows them to field a nominal team next season. ---
**Author:** ![Hippy\_Hollow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hippy_hollow/32/4841_2.png) [@Hippy\_Hollow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hippy_Hollow)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2012, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/penn-st-hit-hard/629138/24 "2012-07-23T16:48:12Z")
I’ve seen this meme of “why punish the players” quite a bit, and I have a perspective that might make sense. Part of ethical behavior is the ability to self-regulate. It should not be incumbent on outsiders to point out shortcomings or deficits in an organization - organizations need procedures (and protections) for those within who are whistleblowers. Think of Enron, the _Challenger_ disaster… people within the organizations tried to alert those in power that something was amiss - to no avail. McCreary might have been this person at PSU, at least it seems like he may have been. Everyone at Enron and NASA suffered because of these failures in leadership - they lost jobs, got demoted, and lived with the guilt of catastrophic losses. The same is happening at PSU. Perhaps on an individual level, people were not personally responsible, but they were part of an organization that put money, wins, or PR ahead of moral and ethical behavior. One would think that the consequences would lead to individuals in the organization to speak up before catastrophe struck. While we know that Paterno, Schultz, and Spanier knew what was going on, I strongly suspect others knew or had suspicions about Sandusky beside McCreary. No individual player (unless he had knowledge of what happened) should be singled out for punishment, but these organizational sanctions are logical given the moral failure of those in charge. What’s really sad is that for all the lessons that Paterno taught, he apparently inculcated a culture of “look the other way” when it came to Sandusky’s behavior. Forthright moral leadership in the organization would have encouraged people coming forward when something harmful was happening. That didn’t exist at Penn State, and it started with Paterno and crept upward and downward in the organization. ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2012, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/penn-st-hit-hard/629138/25 "2012-07-23T16:48:16Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > Apparently ‘cut off your hand’ in this context means ‘cuff it to a post for a short time,’ so it’s not that bad, is it? It’s a common misconception, so you’re not alone. But the “death” penalty is effective - look at how long SMU wallowed in obscurity after they came back from the DP. The problem is that it penalizes too many people - eliminating the entire football program not only kills the athletic department’s main source of revenue (I know, you’re not concerned about that), but it also destroys the local economy that depends heavily on that program existing. I think these measures are quite severe - more so than the death penalty would be in directly punishing Penn St., while minimizing the damage to those outside of Penn St.'s sphere of influence. ---
**Author:** ![JSexton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/96bed5/32.png) [@JSexton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JSexton)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2012, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/penn-st-hit-hard/629138/26 "2012-07-23T16:49:43Z")
I think it was necessary. I do feel for the players and staff who were not guilty but are suffering anyway, but it was necessary. You have to come down so hard on this that the message is: you cannot hide this kind of thing. No one should look at Penn State, then look at their own problems and think “eh, it’s worth it to keep the secret.” The message is that if the PSU staff would have come forward, they would have been treated as heroes. But they didn’t, and that makes them villains. ---
**Author:** ![Skammer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skammer/32/143_2.png) [@Skammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skammer)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2012, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/penn-st-hit-hard/629138/27 "2012-07-23T16:49:59Z")
> [@Mince](#): > > Sandusky was jailed for life. To be nit-picky, Sandusky hasn’t actually been sentenced yet. But given his age and the seriousness of the crimes, life in prison is a foregone conclusion. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2012, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/penn-st-hit-hard/629138/28 "2012-07-23T16:51:40Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > Too bad the NCAA can’t be penalized for unreasonable abuse to the English language. I doubt the NCAA is responsible for the nickname “death penalty.” > [@Mince](#): > > Not true. Paterno was fired (and would have been, I think, criminally investigated had he not died—nice escape), Sandusky was jailed for life, and the bulk of the administration were fired and are suffering criminal investigations. That wraps it up nicely. None of those punishments come from the NCAA, and no, they don’t wrap it up nicely. They punish Sandusky and the four powerful people who covered for him, but not the situation that allowed the coverup to occur. At no university should this kind of situation exist: when a staffer is accused of a crime, the football coach and the AD decide to take care of it in-house by giving him a talking-to and the president and VP of the school agree to help facilitate that? That’s just fucked up. > [@](#): > > Certainly, Penn St. will field a football team this year, 100% of whom will suffer undue sanctions. They’ll have chosen to be there knowing what the situation is. Penn State isn’t entitled to a good football team- particularly knowing what they did to win in the past. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2012, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/penn-st-hit-hard/629138/29 "2012-07-23T16:52:54Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > Apparently ‘cut off your hand’ in this context means ‘cuff it to a post for a short time,’ so it’s not that bad, is it? These penalties will effectively make Penn St unable to field a competitive football team for a decade or more. It’s pretty bad. While it doesn’t compare to the hurt that the kids who were abused suffered it’s also silly to diminish the impact of the penalties. ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2012, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/penn-st-hit-hard/629138/30 "2012-07-23T16:56:24Z")
> [@Mince](#): > > Not true. Paterno was fired (and would have been, I think, criminally investigated had he not died—nice escape), Sandusky was jailed for life, and the bulk of the administration were fired and are suffering criminal investigations. That wraps it up nicely. Disagree, and I’m going to use an analogy that may derail the topic a little (though I hope it won’t). The school and students who had nothing to do with the football program or even the scandal itself benefits from the past earnings of those who perpetuated the coverup. Its like slavery reparations, when white people complain that any reparations punishes them for something they had no control over. But those whose families passed down earnings and fortunes made on the backs of slaves are benefiting, and they don’t deserve it. Things would be much different now if whites had to actually work the fields themselves or hire people to do them instead of getting free labor from slave ships. Penn State is what it is now because of Paterno and the coverups. The money they earned through the football program built the university into what it is today. Many of the students and alumni likely may not have gone to Penn State had they not had such a legendary football coach and earned millions of dollars from TV and other sources relating to football. Their shiny new buildings are built using child molester money, and that makes them fair game for punishment. They’re not responsible of course, which is why harm to these other students should be minimized, but they continue to benefit from the decades of coverups. > [@Mince](#): > > That’s not mitigation for the football team, it’s mitigation for individual players. Certainly, Penn St. will field a football team this year, 100% of whom will suffer undue sanctions. Wrong. 100% of them will be allowed to transfer. ---
**Author:** ![Mince](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecd19e/32.png) [@Mince](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mince)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2012, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/penn-st-hit-hard/629138/31 "2012-07-23T16:59:09Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > None of those punishments come from the NCAA… But why must _anything_ come from the NCAA? There were no rule violations (the NCAA’s providence), no illegal recruiting, no gambling, no tv contracts, no fixed games. The NCAA doesn’t judge on criminal matters. The actions of the administration in this case didn’t confer benefit to the football program, on field. ---
**Author:** ![Mince](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecd19e/32.png) [@Mince](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mince)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2012, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/penn-st-hit-hard/629138/32 "2012-07-23T17:01:15Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > Wrong. 100% of them will be allowed to transfer. So, kill the person to cure the cancer. ---
**Author:** ![Labrador\_Deceiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7c8e57/32.png) [@Labrador\_Deceiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Labrador_Deceiver)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2012, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/penn-st-hit-hard/629138/33 "2012-07-23T17:03:53Z")
> [@Skammer](#): > > To put it in context, RTF: the last school hit with the NCAA “death penalty” was Southern Methodist University in 1987, who was barred from fielding a team for two years. That may not seem too bad, but it was _twenty_ years before they ever recovered enough to appear in their first bowl game following the penalty. IMO these penalties against PSU are harsher, even if it allows them to field a nominal team next season. For the record, SMU received a 1-year ban. The second year was self-imposed. ---
**Author:** ![Simplicio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c37758/32.png) [@Simplicio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simplicio)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2012, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/penn-st-hit-hard/629138/34 "2012-07-23T17:07:30Z")
> [@Mince](#): > > But why must _anything_ come from the NCAA? There were no rule violations (the NCAA’s providence), no illegal recruiting, no gambling, no tv contracts, no fixed games. The NCAA doesn’t judge on criminal matters. The actions of the administration in this case didn’t confer benefit to the football program, on field. I agree with this. If someone covered up childabuse, they need to go to jail. Fining the place they worked at isn’t really relevant, doesn’t adequately punish the guilty parties and does punish a bunch of people that aren’t guilty. The NCAA should use its provisions for punishing things that have to do with football. The State has much more effective, much more targeted and much more severe punishments available for punishing things that have to do with childrape. ---
**Author:** ![Mince](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecd19e/32.png) [@Mince](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mince)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2012, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/penn-st-hit-hard/629138/35 "2012-07-23T17:07:47Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > Disagree, and I’m going to use an analogy that may derail the topic a little (though I hope it won’t). The school and students who had nothing to do with the football program or even the scandal itself benefits from the past earnings of those who perpetuated the coverup. Sure, but why hold them liable for unknowingly accepting such benefits? "Look, I know you’ve earned thousands of dollars across several years with this employer, but he’s been stealing money from pension funds, so you have to give back your salary from the last 5 years. ---
**Author:** ![Mince](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecd19e/32.png) [@Mince](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mince)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2012, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/penn-st-hit-hard/629138/36 "2012-07-23T17:09:32Z")
> [@Labrador\_Deceiver](#): > > For the record, SMU received a 1-year ban. The second year was self-imposed. Under a lot…a lot…of pressure. ---
**Author:** ![drewtwo99](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d07c76/32.png) [@drewtwo99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drewtwo99)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2012, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/penn-st-hit-hard/629138/37 "2012-07-23T17:11:39Z")
Good. If PSU never becomes a top school for college football again it will be too soon. ---
**Author:** ![Mince](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecd19e/32.png) [@Mince](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mince)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2012, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/penn-st-hit-hard/629138/38 "2012-07-23T17:23:37Z")
> [@Skammer](#): > > To be nit-picky, Sandusky hasn’t actually been sentenced yet. But given his age and the seriousness of the crimes, life in prison is a foregone conclusion. Yeah, yeah, I know. I was just going with the odds. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Hamster\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8edcca/32.png) [@The\_Hamster\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Hamster_King)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2012, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/penn-st-hit-hard/629138/39 "2012-07-23T17:28:54Z")
The problem at Penn State wasn’t just a few bad apples. The football program was rotten through and through. Their priorities were so out of whack that low-level employees were afraid they’d be fired for reporting a crime they’d witnessed because it would have made the football program look bad. And the priorities of a lot of Penn State boosters are still out of whack – just witness all the ridiculous wailing about Paterno’s statue being removed. The only way to end the rot is to radically change football culture at Penn State. And that means rooting out the “win at any cost” mentality by making it impossible for them to field a championship team any time in the near future. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2012, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/penn-st-hit-hard/629138/40 "2012-07-23T17:31:05Z")
Holy shit, I think Bobby Bowden just became the winningest college football coach! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/penn-st-hit-hard/629138.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/penn-st-hit-hard/629138.md?page=3)