# Penn St. hit hard **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [July 23, 2012, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/penn-st-hit-hard/629138 "2012-07-23T15:17:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Pai325](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c68b51/32.png) [@Pai325](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pai325)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2012, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/penn-st-hit-hard/629138/41 "2012-07-23T17:32:53Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > 100% of them will be allowed to transfer. but where will they go? Most schools start practice in 2 weeks. Sure, smaller schools would take them in an instant, but Michigan? Notre Dame? This is a rough time of year to transfer. I wonder how many will quit football, keep the scholarship, and just finish their degrees. ---
**Author:** ![DragonAsh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/db5fbb/32.png) [@DragonAsh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DragonAsh)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2012, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/penn-st-hit-hard/629138/42 "2012-07-23T17:33:08Z")
The post-season ban is nothing. > [@](#): > > Penn State must also reduce 10 initial and 20 total scholarships each year for a four-year period. This is absolutely killer. Football at PSU is effectively dead for at least a decade. I approve. ---
**Author:** ![Enginerd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/bcef8e/32.png) [@Enginerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enginerd)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2012, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/penn-st-hit-hard/629138/43 "2012-07-23T17:36:45Z")
> [@Simplicio](#): > > The NCAA should use its provisions for punishing things that have to do with football. The State has much more effective, much more targeted and much more severe punishments available for punishing things that have to do with childrape. This is something that absolutely has to do with football. Sandusky was using his position within the football program to sexually abuse children in a football facility, and the university covered it up at the behest of the football coach. The NCAA isn’t punishing Sandusky for his actions; they’re punishing the Penn State program for theirs. **Ike Witt** posted an excerpt from the NCAA rules in another thread [here](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=15281736&postcount=131): > [@NCAA](#): > > 2.1 The Principle of Institutional Control and Responsibility > 2.1.1 Responsibility for Control. It is the responsibility of each member institution to control its intercollegiate athletics program in compliance with the rules and regulations of the Association. The institution’s president or chancellor is responsible for the administration of all aspects of the athletics program, including approval of the budget and audit of all expenditures. (Revised: 3/8/06) > 2.1.2 Scope of Responsibility. The institution’s responsibility for the conduct of its intercollegiate athletics program includes responsibility for the actions of its staff members and for the actions of any other individual or organization engaged in activities promoting the athletics interests of the institution. The university engaged in a coverup of abuse instigated by Paterno to protect the interests of the football program. That falls square within the NCAA’s definition of its jurisdiction. ---
**Author:** ![Enginerd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/bcef8e/32.png) [@Enginerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enginerd)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2012, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/penn-st-hit-hard/629138/44 "2012-07-23T17:40:05Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > Holy shit, I think Bobby Bowden just became the winningest college football coach! In the FBS. Bowden won 411 games, counting bowl games, but had 13 of those wins vacated. Grambling’s Eddie Robinson holds the DI record with 408 wins. ---
**Author:** ![DCnDC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dcndc/32/2842_2.png) [@DCnDC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DCnDC)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2012, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/penn-st-hit-hard/629138/45 "2012-07-23T17:41:40Z")
> [@Pai325](#): > > but where will they go? Most schools start practice in 2 weeks. Sure, smaller schools would take them in an instant, but Michigan? Notre Dame? This is a rough time of year to transfer. I believe that PSU transfers won’t count against their new school’s scholarship limit. They’re trying to give the players the easiest possible way out (as they should). ---
**Author:** ![Hippy\_Hollow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hippy_hollow/32/4841_2.png) [@Hippy\_Hollow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hippy_Hollow)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2012, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/penn-st-hit-hard/629138/46 "2012-07-23T17:45:34Z")
As catastrophic as the scholarship reductions will be, Penn State will come back much quicker than SMU. SMU was doing really well during the time before they got busted, but in the same region and state you had Texas, Texas A&M, Oklahoma, and Arkansas. Regionally, what’s the biggest competitor to Penn State? Pitt? Pennsylvania is a hotbed of football talent and when the suspensions are lifted I predict there will be a lot of interest in players “bringing back Penn State.” ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Scud](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f08c70/32.png) [@Tom\_Scud](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Scud)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2012, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/penn-st-hit-hard/629138/47 "2012-07-23T17:50:01Z")
> [@Skammer](#): > > To put it in context, RTF: the last school hit with the NCAA “death penalty” was Southern Methodist University in 1987, who was barred from fielding a team for two years. That may not seem too bad, but it was _twenty_ years before they ever recovered enough to appear in their first bowl game following the penalty. IMO these penalties against PSU are harsher, even if it allows them to field a nominal team next season. There were some additional circumstances in SMU’s case, though; they aren’t a very big school, share their recruiting area with a large number of other schools, and had their upper-tier conference dissolve on them while they were still either still under sanctions or just barely done with them (I don’t remember which); since then, their backup conference split in two and then they left that one for another lower-tier conference; none of this is likely to happen to Penn State, which I would bet will be back in the top 25 by 2020 or so. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2012, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/penn-st-hit-hard/629138/48 "2012-07-23T17:51:40Z")
On the one hand, that’s really rough. On the other, send a friggin’ message. Child rapists? Yeah, innocent bystanders can suffer. ---
**Author:** ![Keweenaw](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/da6949/32.png) [@Keweenaw](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Keweenaw)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2012, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/penn-st-hit-hard/629138/49 "2012-07-23T17:56:37Z")
> [@Pai325](#): > > but where will they go? Most schools start practice in 2 weeks. Sure, smaller schools would take them in an instant, but Michigan? Notre Dame? This is a rough time of year to transfer. > > I wonder how many will quit football, keep the scholarship, and just finish their degrees. Don’t athletic scholarships have an annual renewal? I bet keeping the scholarship probably only applies for the next school year. ---
**Author:** ![Great\_Antibob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Great\_Antibob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Great_Antibob)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2012, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/penn-st-hit-hard/629138/50 "2012-07-23T17:59:14Z")
I can see where the NCAA was riding a fine line on the death penalty. The only time they imposed it, it was to a program under sanction that was openly flaunting its defiance of the rules. Looks like that’s the standard the NCAA has set - death penalty applicable in practice only in cases where a program is already under some kind of punishment or probation. In practice, it’s also a big message to send to the big sports schools. Maybe it’s not a big message for the general public, but the real point is for member schools not to do this kind of thing. I couldn’t care less about public outrage or reaction as much as making sure athletics departments across the country get the message about covering up felonies. ---
**Author:** ![Mince](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecd19e/32.png) [@Mince](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mince)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2012, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/penn-st-hit-hard/629138/51 "2012-07-23T18:07:28Z")
> [@Enginerd](#): > > The university engaged in a coverup of abuse instigated by Paterno to protect the interests of the football program. That falls square within the NCAA’s definition of its jurisdiction. Paterno is dead, Sandusky is in jail for life (presumably), the rest of the administration who had knowledge of the affair have been fired and are suffering criminal investigations. You can’t punish the guilty more than that. The only remaining punishment targets the innocent. Criminal law is not the NCAA’s jurisdiction. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2012, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/penn-st-hit-hard/629138/52 "2012-07-23T18:09:22Z")
> [@Keweenaw](#): > > Don’t athletic scholarships have an annual renewal? I bet keeping the scholarship probably only applies for the next school year. Yup. If they quit football they will lose their football scholarship. ---
**Author:** ![Enginerd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/bcef8e/32.png) [@Enginerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enginerd)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2012, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/penn-st-hit-hard/629138/53 "2012-07-23T18:15:29Z")
> [@Mince](#): > > Paterno is dead, Sandusky is in jail for life (presumably), the rest of the administration who had knowledge of the affair have been fired and are suffering criminal investigations. You can’t punish the guilty more than that. The only remaining punishment targets the innocent. Criminal law is not the NCAA’s jurisdiction. The institution is guilty, not just those particular people. The environment at Penn State was such that the football program was deemed more important than the well-being of children, and that’s what the NCAA is punishing. Did you read the NCAA’s own rule? “The institution’s responsibility for the conduct of its intercollegiate athletics program includes responsibility for **the actions of its staff members** and for the actions of any other individual or organization engaged in activities promoting the athletics interests of the institution. [bolding mine]” The individuals have been punished by the legal system, but the institution failed to control its employees and is answerable to the NCAA because of it. ---
**Author:** ![Mince](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecd19e/32.png) [@Mince](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mince)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2012, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/penn-st-hit-hard/629138/54 "2012-07-23T18:18:56Z")
> [@Farmer\_Jane](#): > > On the one hand, that’s really rough. > > On the other, send a friggin’ message. Child rapists? Yeah, innocent bystanders can suffer. No. I will not be liable for a criminal act I did not witness. It’s my right as a human being. It is, of course, horrible when a child gets raped, but it is several orders of magnitude more horrible when I am accountable for such an act when I am not accountable for such an act. ---
**Author:** ![zamboniracer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e9a140/32.png) [@zamboniracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zamboniracer)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2012, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/penn-st-hit-hard/629138/55 "2012-07-23T18:22:39Z")
> [@Mince](#): > > Paterno is dead, Sandusky is in jail for life (presumably), the rest of the administration who had knowledge of the affair have been fired and are suffering criminal investigations. You can’t punish the guilty more than that. The only remaining punishment targets the innocent. Criminal law is not the NCAA’s jurisdiction. I agree. It seems to me that the additional penalties for Penn State amount to appeasing the mob mentality and the media, who for some reason inexplicable to me, say that harsh criminal penalties and the coming huge civil lawsuit judgments aren’t harsh enough. Says who? Rick Reilly of [SI.com](http://SI.com) and the self-righteous pundits of Espn? What the hell do they know about anything! Heck, they’re the news media that this scandal happened under the very noses of for over 10years. The story was finally broken not by the big sports media types - that are now calling for PSU’s and Paterno’s posthumous head - but by some little paper in PA. I’ve got a sneaking feeling that the $60M NCAA penalty is never going to get much beyond the NCAA’s bank accounts. ---
**Author:** ![aldiboronti](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@aldiboronti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aldiboronti)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2012, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/penn-st-hit-hard/629138/56 "2012-07-23T18:30:05Z")
There had to be a way to punish Penn State without raining shit on the heads of the students, who will be suffering the consequences of this for years. And all in the name of child care. Far more thought should have been given to this by the NCAA. ---
**Author:** ![Great\_Antibob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Great\_Antibob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Great_Antibob)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2012, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/penn-st-hit-hard/629138/57 "2012-07-23T18:31:51Z")
> [@zamboniracer](#): > > I’ve got a sneaking feeling that the $60M NCAA penalty is never going to get much beyond the NCAA’s bank accounts. It’s not going to hit the NCAAs general coffers. It’s going straight to an endowment to fund: [QUOTE=NCAA] external programs preventing child sexual abuse or assisting victims and may not be used to fund such programs at the university. [/quote] If they wanted to cave to public opinion, they’d have shut down the football program. Obviously, that didn’t happen. This is a message not only to PSU but to all member schools that a culture that makes covering up felonies acceptable is not tolerated. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2012, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/penn-st-hit-hard/629138/58 "2012-07-23T18:32:24Z")
> [@Telemark](#): > > Yup. If they quit football they will lose their football scholarship. No, not in [this case](http://www.ncaa.com/news/ncaa/article/2012-07-23/ncaa-imposes-sanctions-penn-st). This is one part they got right, IMO. > [@NCAA Release](#): > > The NCAA recognizes that student-athletes are not responsible for these events and worked to minimize the impact of its sanctions on current and incoming football student-athletes. Any entering or returning student-athlete will be allowed to immediately transfer and compete at another school. Further, any football student-athletes who remain at the university may retain their scholarships, regardless of whether they compete on the team. ---
**Author:** ![Pai325](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c68b51/32.png) [@Pai325](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pai325)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2012, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/penn-st-hit-hard/629138/59 "2012-07-23T18:33:26Z")
> [@Telemark](#): > > Yup. If they quit football they will lose their football scholarship. I thought they announced as part of the penalty that the players had this choice. I know scholarships are renewed annually (so far), but I thought when they announced it they meant for longer than this school year, but I must have misunderstood. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2012, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/penn-st-hit-hard/629138/60 "2012-07-23T18:34:52Z")
> [@Mince](#): > > But why must _anything_ come from the NCAA? Because if nothing else, the NCAA would look like a complete joke if they took no action. The coverup involved the football program on several levels and appears to have been undertaken at least in part to benefit the football program and preserve what it brought to the university, and the coverup also reflected how distorted Penn State had become with regard to the handling of its athletics. The NCAA punishes people for making too many phone calls to recruits or buying them small meals. To say here ‘Well, sure the coach and the athletic director covered up the actions of a child rapist so their school and their team wouldn’t be embarrassed and several of them committed crimes, but technically, this wasn’t a football thing’ would just have been absurd. > [@](#): > > The actions of the administration in this case didn’t confer benefit to the football program, on field. I disagree, and so did these four PSU officials or else they would have called the cops immediately. For more than a decade they kept the school and the team from being disgraced by this scandal, kept the money from ticket sales and alumni donations coming, and protected the name and the image of Joe Paterno. And of course as a side effect, Sandusky had the chance to abuse more children. It’s all out in the open now, but it wasn’t for a long time because they kept quiet. He was investigated in 1998 (the school did nothing) but not charged. McQueary saw him rape a child in 2001, again they did nothing. It wasn’t until 2008 that a parent got word to Pennsylvania’s child welfare department that this guy was abusing children. Imagine the guy had died in 2007, for example- this might all still be a secret, with Penn State football and the good name of Joe Paterno taking precedence over dozens of abused children and any possibility of getting justice done against a rapist. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/penn-st-hit-hard/629138.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/penn-st-hit-hard/629138.md?page=4)