# Penn St. hit hard **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [July 23, 2012, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/penn-st-hit-hard/629138 "2012-07-23T15:17:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![LonghornDave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@LonghornDave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonghornDave)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2012, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/penn-st-hit-hard/629138/61 "2012-07-23T18:45:29Z")
> [@Tom\_Scud](#): > > There were some additional circumstances in SMU’s case, though; they aren’t a very big school, share their recruiting area with a large number of other schools, and had their upper-tier conference dissolve on them while they were still either still under sanctions or just barely done with them (I don’t remember which); since then, their backup conference split in two and then they left that one for another lower-tier conference; none of this is likely to happen to Penn State, which I would bet will be back in the top 25 by 2020 or so. They were also not a good progam to begin with, and their only real period of success being directly related to cheating. ---
**Author:** ![LonghornDave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@LonghornDave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonghornDave)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2012, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/penn-st-hit-hard/629138/62 "2012-07-23T18:57:04Z")
> [@Labrador\_Deceiver](#): > > For the record, SMU received a 1-year ban. The second year was self-imposed. They received a 1-year ban and home games were banned the second year. The second year was therefore partially self-imposed. The SMU penalty dwarfs this penalty (except for the fine). SMU was also banned from television, had limitations on the number of coaches they could hire, limited scholarships, extended probation, etc. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2012, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/penn-st-hit-hard/629138/63 "2012-07-23T19:17:13Z")
> [@Peremensoe](#): > > No, not in [this case](http://www.ncaa.com/news/ncaa/article/2012-07-23/ncaa-imposes-sanctions-penn-st). This is one part they got right, IMO. Ignorance fought, thanks. Yes, this is the way it should be, and I can see that it is the right thing to do in this case for those student-athletes. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2012, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/penn-st-hit-hard/629138/64 "2012-07-23T19:32:56Z")
> [@Telemark](#): > > These penalties will effectively make Penn St unable to field a competitive football team for a decade or more. It’s pretty bad. The vast majority of universities don’t field a “competitive” football team \*ever \*and they manage to survive. ---
**Author:** ![Philster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/13edae/32.png) [@Philster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Philster)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2012, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/penn-st-hit-hard/629138/65 "2012-07-23T19:35:55Z")
> [@LonghornDave](#): > > They received a 1-year ban and home games were banned the second year. The second year was therefore partially self-imposed. > > The SMU penalty dwarfs this penalty (except for the fine). SMU was also banned from television, had limitations on the number of coaches they could hire, limited scholarships, extended probation, etc. According to NCAA spokesman: Penn State could not be handed a similar penalty. Per NCAA rules, the death penalty is only available as a punishment when a team has additional violations while they are already being sanctioned. Penn State was not under any type of sanctions. ---
**Author:** ![That\_Don\_Guy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/that_don_guy/32/538_2.png) [@That\_Don\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/That_Don_Guy)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2012, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/penn-st-hit-hard/629138/66 "2012-07-23T19:36:40Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > This is ‘hard’? > > 1. Vacating past victories - I’m sorry, but big fucking deal. > 2. Bowl ineligible for 4 years - they were talking about killing the program forever. This is, by comparison, nothing. > 3. The fine: given the revenues the program generates just from Big Ten membership, it doesn’t seem like a killer - a lot of money, but money they can afford. > 4. Players allowed to transfer - well, of course. Again, bfd. > 5. The scholarship reductions: will this be in effect permanently, or just for the next 4 years? This is really the only meat to the penalty, as best as I can tell - and only if it’s permanent. Because my guess is that that would really demote the importance of football at Penn State. With 20 fewer scholarships than everyone else, they’d have a hard time competing nationally anymore, and might want to find a different conference rather than become a Big Ten doormat. 1. Normally, you are right - but in this case, the NCAA did something I am pretty sure is unprecedented when its official report mentioned a head coach by name (rather than saying something generic like “The head football coach”) when it said that Penn State had to remove the vacated wins from Paterno’s record. Almost certainly, it was to make sure that there is no “official” recognition of Paterno as the “winningest NCAA football coach” or the “winningest NCAA Division I/I-A/FBS football coach”; if the school bookstore so much as sells a T-shirt saying that he is, then the NCAA can claim both a violation of the agreement and a violation of the probation. 2. The Big 10 announced that, for the next four years, Penn State’s share of the conference’s BCS money will be donated to charities. Then again, I am hearing rumors that alumni and booster donations are increasing sharply. 3. The scholarship restrictions apply for four years, but don’t take immediate effect. The “first counters” (freshmen and JC transfers) drop starts in 2013; the “total” drop starts in 2014. > [@YogSosoth](#): > > 100% of them will be allowed to transfer. Yes, but who has any scholarships available? Remember, there is no such thing as a partial scholarship in FBS football. > [@DCnDC](#): > > I believe that PSU transfers won’t count against their new school’s scholarship limit. They’re trying to give the players the easiest possible way out (as they should). The NCAA did say that it is considering letting schools take Penn State players on scholarship in violation of the limit this season, but must correspondingly have fewer than the maximum number of scholarships next season (so a school that has 85 now and gives two scholarships to Penn State transfers for 2012 is limited to 83 for 2013). Here’s something that few sources have mentioned: there is a winner in all of this - Penn State’s non-football sports programs. One of the conditions is, none of the school’s non-football programs can have its expenditures reduced or eliminated to help pay the $12 million/year fine. Don’t expect to see a press conference announcing that, “for unreleated reasons,” the school is terminating its, say, baseball and softball programs. Meanwhile, who’s going to be the first to start selling, “Joe Paterno - winningest college (don’t use the ‘NCAA’ trademark) football coach if you include wins vacated for reasons not involving ineligible players”? Of course, the school’s on-campus bookstores can’t sell them, but what stops a textbook store that’s just off-campus from doing it on its own? ---
**Author:** ![Clawdio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/d07c76/32.png) [@Clawdio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clawdio)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2012, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/penn-st-hit-hard/629138/67 "2012-07-23T19:40:59Z")
I think a bit much is being made of the “suffering” by the innocents/students. What exactly is this horrible attrocity they must bear? Oh, right, the football team probably won’t be very good for a while. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2012, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/penn-st-hit-hard/629138/68 "2012-07-23T19:43:57Z")
> [@Philster](#): > > According to NCAA spokesman: Penn State could not be handed a similar penalty. Per NCAA rules, **the death penalty is only available as a punishment when a team has additional violations while they are already being sanctioned**. > > Penn State was not under any type of sanctions. Do you have a link to that quote? My understanding was that the bolded part was a widespread assumption among fans and commentators because of the SMU circumstances, but was not a rule as such. In fact, the repeat-violator rule of 1985 works the other way–it _requires_ the “death penalty” in such cases; it doesn’t set minimum conditions before the penalty can be given. ---
**Author:** ![dalej42](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@dalej42](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dalej42)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2012, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/penn-st-hit-hard/629138/69 "2012-07-23T19:46:54Z")
> [@That\_Don\_Guy](#): > > 1. The Big 10 announced that, for the next four years, Penn State’s share of the conference’s BCS money will be donated to charities. Then again, I am hearing rumors that alumni and booster donations are increasing sharply. I can see alumni and booster donations increasing over the past few months as a knee jerk reaction about Penn State being ‘picked on.’ But, fast forward to November 2014 and the only win has been against Northwestern. Does, “What have you done for me lately?” take hold and donations being to really dry up as well? ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2012, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/penn-st-hit-hard/629138/70 "2012-07-23T19:49:02Z")
> [@That\_Don\_Guy](#): > > Of course, the school’s on-campus bookstores can’t sell them, but what stops a textbook store that’s just off-campus from doing it on its own? Nothing, of course. Which is why I think that this particular penalty really means nothing at all. > [@Clawdio](#): > > I think a bit much is being made of the “suffering” by the innocents/students. What exactly is this horrible attrocity they must bear? Oh, right, the football team probably won’t be very good for a while. Exactly. It’s not like there aren’t hundreds of other football teams that people can root for, if football is what they care about. ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2012, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/penn-st-hit-hard/629138/71 "2012-07-23T19:50:17Z")
> [@Clawdio](#): > > I think a bit much is being made of the “suffering” by the innocents/students. What exactly is this horrible attrocity they must bear? Oh, right, the football team probably won’t be very good for a while. For me, the perfect example of this is all the businesses in Happy Valley that are going to take a huge hit. They didn’t have anything at all even remotely connected to the scandal, but they’ll take their portion of the brunt. ---
**Author:** ![zamboniracer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e9a140/32.png) [@zamboniracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zamboniracer)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2012, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/penn-st-hit-hard/629138/72 "2012-07-23T20:00:19Z")
> [@Munch](#): > > For me, the perfect example of this is all the businesses in Happy Valley that are going to take a huge hit. They didn’t have anything at all even remotely connected to the scandal, but they’ll take their portion of the brunt. Exactly. But those people must pay the price, so the sanctimonious NCAA/media/mob can pretend to have its revenge on the late Coach Paterno, who had the temerity to die before his pound of flesh could be extracted. ---
**Author:** ![oreally](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/7ab992/32.png) [@oreally](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/oreally)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2012, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/penn-st-hit-hard/629138/73 "2012-07-23T20:01:59Z")
> [@Mince](#): > > [Penn State Nittany Lions hit with $60 million fine, 4-year bowl ban, wins dating to 1998 - ESPN](http://espn.go.com/college-football/story/_/id/8191027/penn-state-hit-60-million-fine-4-year-bowl-ban-wins-dating-1998) > > Did the innocent employees of Enron suffer such a penalty, other than the loss of jobs, which was merely consequent? (And they were compensated, presumably, with unemployment benfits, etc.) They’re punishing the masses for the actions of a few. Obviously. Thank you for getting it. But this whole thing has been an absurdly hysterical witch hunt from the start, so a joke of a decision like this hardly surprises me. What a clusterfuck and horrific overkill this is. The SCHOOL didn’t abuse those kids or fail to act swiftly and severely enough. ONE guy did it and a handful either covered it up or failed to do all they could. So based on that, let’s burn the entire school including the players, other coaches, students ad nauseum at the stake? And at the front of the line is STILL Paterno. Firing him was bad enough; now they want to take away wins? Including wins that occurred before he even knew anything about this? Screw you NCAA. I’ve been basically neutral about Penn St over the years but always admired how they won without tolerating crap from players, which is more than schools like Miami, Fla St, Ohio St, Nebraska (and on and it goes) can say. This is a joke. Dear NCAA: go fuck yourself. I will never support you in any way in terms of collegiate sports. I have attended my last college game of any kind. To all Penn St fans, I am sorry for you and for this witch hunt. Careful, don’t admit you’re a fan or they might just pull out a gun and shoot you too. :smack: ---
**Author:** ![garygnu](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/garygnu/32/2924_2.png) [@garygnu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/garygnu)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2012, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/penn-st-hit-hard/629138/74 "2012-07-23T20:02:30Z")
> [@Munch](#): > > For me, the perfect example of this is all the businesses in Happy Valley that are going to take a huge hit. They didn’t have anything at all even remotely connected to the scandal, but they’ll take their portion of the brunt. The community’s veneration of Paterno certainly aided his ability to dictate the scandal being swept under the rug. ---
**Author:** ![Mince](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecd19e/32.png) [@Mince](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mince)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2012, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/penn-st-hit-hard/629138/75 "2012-07-23T20:07:45Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > The vast majority of universities don’t field a “competitive” football team \*ever \*and they manage to survive. Yeah, but those programs are _used_ to not fielding a competitive football team. Tell a millionaire he _has_ to live in a shanty for 4 years, see how he responds, then tell a homeless family they \*get \* to live in a shanty for 4 years and see how they respond. Compare. ---
**Author:** ![Skammer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skammer/32/143_2.png) [@Skammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skammer)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2012, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/penn-st-hit-hard/629138/76 "2012-07-23T20:07:52Z")
> [@dalej42](#): > > But, fast forward to November 2014 and the only win has been against Northwestern. Hey! Northwestern’s gonna kick their ass! You take that back! ---
**Author:** ![Enginerd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/bcef8e/32.png) [@Enginerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enginerd)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2012, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/penn-st-hit-hard/629138/77 "2012-07-23T20:09:27Z")
> [@Mince](#): > > Yeah, but those programs are _used_ to not fielding a competitive football team. Tell a millionaire he _has_ to live in a shanty for 4 years, see how he responds, then tell a homeless family they \*get \* to live in a shanty for 4 years and see how they respond. Compare. Is this supposed to make people feel sorry for Penn State fans? Is Mitt Romney writing your posts? ---
**Author:** ![oreally](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/7ab992/32.png) [@oreally](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/oreally)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2012, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/penn-st-hit-hard/629138/78 "2012-07-23T20:13:21Z")
O yay let’s turn this into a political digression. :rolleyes: > [@garygnu](#): > > The community’s veneration of Paterno certainly aided his ability to dictate the scandal being swept under the rug. Course that’s not what he did, but let’s not let facts get in the way of a highly emotional witch hunt. Burn baby burn! ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2012, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/penn-st-hit-hard/629138/79 "2012-07-23T20:14:45Z")
> [@oreally](#): > > To all Penn St fans, I am sorry for you and for this witch hunt. It’s only a witch _hunt_ when there aren’t real witches around. PSU is a target-rich environment. ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2012, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/penn-st-hit-hard/629138/80 "2012-07-23T20:15:03Z")
> [@zamboniracer](#): > > Exactly. But those people must pay the price, so the sanctimonious NCAA/media/mob can pretend to have its revenge on the late Coach Paterno, who had the temerity to die before his pound of flesh could be extracted. Actually, I believe that the current penalties against Penn St. mitigated the collateral damage about as much as they could have been. If a 2 year death penalty had been instituted, it would have been far worse. At least now there will still be games being played. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/penn-st-hit-hard/629138.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/penn-st-hit-hard/629138.md?page=5)