# Penn St. hit hard **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [July 23, 2012, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/penn-st-hit-hard/629138 "2012-07-23T15:17:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![oreally](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/7ab992/32.png) [@oreally](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/oreally)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2012, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/penn-st-hit-hard/629138/101 "2012-07-23T20:39:16Z")
> [@RaftPeople](#): > > [report](http://www.collegian.psu.edu/archive/2012/07/09/chronicle_report_joe_paterno.aspx) > > It’s pretty easy to find info including emails like the one quoted in this report. You’re kidding I hope. This link backs none of your claims. More he said/she saids. But apparently that’s how our great legal system works now. Hey bout that OJ, dude he was innocent, ignore the truckloads of actual hard evidence. :smack: ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2012, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/penn-st-hit-hard/629138/102 "2012-07-23T20:40:10Z")
> [@Mince](#): > > So, kill the person to cure the cancer. Who or what, in your mind, is the person and who/what is the cancer? How does allowing the kids to transfer kill anything? There is not one person here who believes that should 100% of the current roster leave the school, that the school won’t have more recruits this year, or next year, or 5 years down the line. Nothing’s being killed > [@Mince](#): > > Sure, but why hold them liable for unknowingly accepting such benefits? > > "Look, I know you’ve earned thousands of dollars across several years with this employer, but he’s been stealing money from pension funds, so you have to give back your salary from the last 5 years. You’re looking at this the wrong way. The punishment isn’t to hold people accountable where its not deserved, its to remove the benefits that Penn State never should have gotten in the first place. If you buy a stolen item unknowingly, you’ve profited from that item. If it is later exposed that the item was stolen, you have to give it back even if you may not be compensated for it. Penn State has been getting money, recruits, and influence owing to its football program and those in charge of it. Now we know all of that should not have happened in the first place. Removing that isn’t an attack on those who are at the school now, its an attempt to return balance to a program that never should have gotten ahead > [@aldiboronti](#): > > There had to be a way to punish Penn State without raining shit on the heads of the students, who will be suffering the consequences of this for years. And all in the name of child care. Far more thought should have been given to this by the NCAA. I don’t understand why you think this is a collective punishment on…which students? If you’re talking about the ones associated with the football program, all of them are there because of the undue advantage Penn State has enjoyed. They may not be responsible, but now that they know they are playing with ill-gotten gains, they should be big enough to vacate any benefits they receive. Hurting the PSU football program is perfectly fine Anyways, you guys are lucky. Over here on the local sports talk, the DJs were wondering why, if the NCAA acknowledged the scandal reached back to 1998, why did they only fine PSU $60 million? The school’s endowment is worth somewhere between $1.5-$1.8 BILLION, with a B. $60 is one year’s worth and is a drop in the bucket. The local DJs were saying that all revenue from 1998 to 2011 should have been taken from the school. Even with these penalties, which I thought were large and substantive, PSU is apparently still not banned from TV, still allowed to recruit, and will have a smaller, weaker class for a few years but by the end of the decade still probably be doing fine. ---
**Author:** ![Mince](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecd19e/32.png) [@Mince](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mince)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2012, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/penn-st-hit-hard/629138/103 "2012-07-23T20:40:34Z")
> [@Labrador\_Deceiver](#): > > Hang on a sec, are you saying you think Sandusky was railroaded? > > Jesus Christ. I think we’re done here. Yeah, what was it, 8 individuals all colluding? Obvious Ohio St. fans. ---
**Author:** ![oreally](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/7ab992/32.png) [@oreally](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/oreally)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2012, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/penn-st-hit-hard/629138/104 "2012-07-23T20:40:42Z")
> [@Labrador\_Deceiver](#): > > Is that the sum total of your argument? You appear to not even have a basic knowledge of the scandal, so it’s hardly surprising that you’re now pulling your pants down for our amusement. > > Vicky Triponey is a former head of student affairs at Penn State who has outlined many of the ways that Paterno would resist her attempts to discipline football players. Is that the sum total of YOUR argument (whatever that even is)? “She said it, it must be true!” OK… ---
**Author:** ![oreally](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/7ab992/32.png) [@oreally](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/oreally)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2012, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/penn-st-hit-hard/629138/105 "2012-07-23T20:45:40Z")
> [@Labrador\_Deceiver](#): > > Hang on a sec, are you saying you think Sandusky was railroaded? No, I’m saying someone being convicted based ONLY on testimony of a handful of people (who were allowed to talk together beforehand, hey no corroboration of stories possible there) is not “proof beyond any reasonable doubt.” ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2012, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/penn-st-hit-hard/629138/106 "2012-07-23T20:49:26Z")
What makes the punishment great is allowing players to transfer if they want with no lose of eligibility. It lets current players not be punished and kills the program for almost a decade. ---
**Author:** ![Labrador\_Deceiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7c8e57/32.png) [@Labrador\_Deceiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Labrador_Deceiver)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2012, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/penn-st-hit-hard/629138/107 "2012-07-23T20:49:37Z")
> [@oreally](#): > > Is that the sum total of YOUR argument (whatever that even is)? “She said it, it must be true!” > > OK… No. There is plenty of supporting evidence that corroborates her story. Now, go back to defending the child rapist. That was more fun. ---
**Author:** ![RaftPeople](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/6f9a4e/32.png) [@RaftPeople](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RaftPeople)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2012, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/penn-st-hit-hard/629138/108 "2012-07-23T20:49:44Z")
> [@oreally](#): > > No, I’m saying someone being convicted based ONLY on testimony of a handful of people (who were allowed to talk together beforehand, hey no corroboration of stories possible there) is not “proof beyond any reasonable doubt.” Jerry, how did you get computer access? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2012, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/penn-st-hit-hard/629138/109 "2012-07-23T20:53:02Z")
> [@Mince](#): > > Yep! I hear (even possible) child rape, I’m on the phone to my nearest 911 (not my nearest Joe Paterno, may he rest in discomfort). That’s what most human beings would do even though we’ve heard a lot of nonsense to the contrary in this case. What kind of person hears that a child has been abused in their workplace, reports it to their boss, and just lets the whole thing drop without going to the police or even asking if the police are involved? > [@oreally](#): > > No, I’m saying someone being convicted based ONLY on testimony of a handful of people It wasn’t a handful of people. Eight people said he abused them and many other people tesified they either saw incidents of abuse at one time or another or witnessed contemporary evidence that supported those stories. > [@](#): > > who were allowed to talk together beforehand, hey no corroboration of stories possible there No, they weren’t. > [@](#): > > is not “proof beyond any reasonable doubt.” Fortunately a jury disagreed. Maybe we can go back to making implausible excuses for Joe Paterno, who only enabled the raping of children, rather than the guy who actually did it? ---
**Author:** ![mkecane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9e8a1a/32.png) [@mkecane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mkecane)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2012, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/penn-st-hit-hard/629138/110 "2012-07-23T20:53:29Z")
/semi-nervously awaits some of the **SA** arguments to appear ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2012, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/penn-st-hit-hard/629138/111 "2012-07-23T20:56:56Z")
> [@Labrador\_Deceiver](#): > > Now, go back to defending the child rapist. That was more fun. Take a paper towel roll and … ---
**Author:** ![Mince](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecd19e/32.png) [@Mince](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mince)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2012, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/penn-st-hit-hard/629138/112 "2012-07-23T20:58:52Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > You’re looking at this the wrong way. The punishment isn’t to hold people accountable where its not deserved, its to remove the benefits that Penn State never should have gotten in the first place. But that’s precisely what the NCAA sanctions do, hold people accountable where it’s not deserved. Who do you think will suffer most from these sanctions? Paterno (dead), Sandusky (prison for life), the administration (fired, under investigation), the rest of the football program who is asking WTF? That may not be what the punished was designed for, but it’s the practical effect the punishment will have. [QUOTE=YogSosoth] Who or what, in your mind, is the person and who/what is the cancer? How does allowing the kids to transfer kill anything? There is not one person here who believes that should 100% of the current roster leave the school, that the school won’t have more recruits this year, or next year, or 5 years down the line. Nothing’s being killed. [/QUOTE] But all of the talent will leave. And great, what we have left is a TE who hasn’t caught a pass since 8th grade and a QB who played RB in JC. ---
**Author:** ![Enginerd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/bcef8e/32.png) [@Enginerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enginerd)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2012, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/penn-st-hit-hard/629138/113 "2012-07-23T21:00:05Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > It wasn’t a handful of people. Eight people said he abused them and many other people tesified they either saw incidents of abuse at one time or another or witnessed contemporary evidence that supported those stories. > No, they weren’t. > Fortunately a jury disagreed. Maybe we can go back to making implausible excuses for Joe Paterno, who only enabled the raping of children, rather than the guy who actually did it? I think (it’s admittedly a little hard to follow) that he _is_ talking about Paterno, and alluding to his “conviction” in the Freeh report. He’s still wrong, of course, but less wrong than he might otherwise be. ---
**Author:** ![Labrador\_Deceiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7c8e57/32.png) [@Labrador\_Deceiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Labrador_Deceiver)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2012, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/penn-st-hit-hard/629138/114 "2012-07-23T21:02:39Z")
> [@Enginerd](#): > > I think (it’s admittedly a little hard to follow) that he _is_ talking about Paterno, and alluding to his “conviction” in the Freeh report. He’s still wrong, of course, but less wrong than he might otherwise be. No, he’s talking about Sandusky, as unbelievable as that is. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2012, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/penn-st-hit-hard/629138/115 "2012-07-23T21:02:48Z")
> [@Munch](#): > > For me, the perfect example of this is all the businesses in Happy Valley that are going to take a huge hit. They didn’t have anything at all even remotely connected to the scandal, but they’ll take their portion of the brunt. So what? I mean, they’ve been making money by riding on the back of the football program for years. You hitch your wagon to someone else’s horse, you take your chances that it’ll follow the road you want it to go down. That’s all part of the risk of business. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Scud](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f08c70/32.png) [@Tom\_Scud](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Scud)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2012, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/penn-st-hit-hard/629138/116 "2012-07-23T21:03:51Z")
> [@Enginerd](#): > > I think (it’s admittedly a little hard to follow) that he _is_ talking about Paterno, and alluding to his “conviction” in the Freeh report. He’s still wrong, of course, but less wrong than he might otherwise be. Nah, look at posts #98 and 105 again - he’s clearly arguing against the case against Sandusky. ---
**Author:** ![Enginerd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/bcef8e/32.png) [@Enginerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enginerd)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2012, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/penn-st-hit-hard/629138/117 "2012-07-23T21:05:50Z")
Ugh. Well, there goes a little more of my faith in humanity. ---
**Author:** ![Labrador\_Deceiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7c8e57/32.png) [@Labrador\_Deceiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Labrador_Deceiver)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2012, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/penn-st-hit-hard/629138/118 "2012-07-23T21:14:29Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > So what? > > I mean, they’ve been making money by riding on the back of the football program for years. You hitch your wagon to someone else’s horse, you take your chances that it’ll follow the road you want it to go down. > > That’s all part of the risk of business. Besides which, they aren’t going to lose that much business. Penn State didn’t get the death penalty. There are still going to be tens of thousands of fans in State College every home game. Yes, it might be a bit diminished, but it won’t be gone completely. ---
**Author:** ![brickbacon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/898d66/32.png) [@brickbacon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brickbacon)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2012, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/penn-st-hit-hard/629138/119 "2012-07-23T21:16:39Z")
> [@Anaamika](#): > > If we didn’t make these big punishments, what would be the incentive for reporting next time? Next time it will be, “Oh the boss says don’t report it, and even if we get caught, it will just be a slap on the wrist.”. The incentives are being a decent human being, avoiding public scorn, keeping your job, and avoiding possible jail time. I don’t think this penalty, or the fine really matter much to a guy like McQueary. A guy, who despite doing the wrong thing, still has a job AFAIK, and will not directly suffer at all as a result of the NCAA’s actions. That fact that people keep trying to pretend this is a deterrent instead of just feel-good vengeance is really kinda funny to me. Just own it. > [@Hippy\_Hollow](#): > > Think of Enron, the _Challenger_ disaster… people within the organizations tried to alert those in power that something was amiss - to no avail. McCreary might have been this person at PSU, at least it seems like he may have been. > > Everyone at Enron and NASA suffered because of these failures in leadership - they lost jobs, got demoted, and lived with the guilt of catastrophic losses. The same is happening at PSU. Neither of these are a particularly apt analogy because the criminal and/or bad conduct at Enron and NASA was sufficiently related to the work product they created, not just being bad people. If the leaders at Enron were running a human trafficking operation on the side, and others there didn’t turn them in, do you think government should shut Enron, the company, down because their “culture” is bad? What about if the executive board covered up a murder? The idea to shut down the company wouldn’t even merit serious discussion. Was Union Carbide shut down after the Bhopal disaster/coverup? Did people suggest shutting down Ford because of the Pinto design? Of course not. > [@The\_Hamster\_King](#): > > The problem at Penn State wasn’t just a few bad apples. The football program was rotten through and through. Their priorities were so out of whack that low-level employees were afraid they’d be fired for reporting a crime they’d witnessed because it would have made the football program look bad. That was just rationalizing. The reality is a near majority of people do not report abuse. These people come up with all sorts of reasons and rationales (eg. fear, family pressure, etc.). Most of these people do not have a football team to blame, yet they rationalize in the same manner. The reality is people have a hard time stepping up a doing the right thing for a variety of reasons. Even mandatory reporters like doctors often don’t report abuse. How do you explain that? Are they all bad people stuck in a “rotten culture”? Or maybe the situation is much more complicated than that. Honestly though, the worst part to me is this nonsensical vacation of wins. I get the point is to hurt Paterno, but Paterno didn’t actually win those games, the players did. They suffered concussions, broken legs, and torn ligaments to pile up those wins. These are guys whose brains were likely damaged to a point some of them will not even remember playing these games in a few decades, yet it’s okay to demean their sacrifices in order to try to make Paterno invisible? Complete bullshit. And more importantly, not even remotely in the NCAA’s purview. ---
**Author:** ![Enginerd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/bcef8e/32.png) [@Enginerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enginerd)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2012, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/penn-st-hit-hard/629138/120 "2012-07-23T21:22:35Z")
> [@Mince](#): > > But that’s precisely what the NCAA sanctions do, hold people accountable where it’s not deserved. Who do you think will suffer most from these sanctions? Paterno (dead), Sandusky (prison for life), the administration (fired, under investigation), the rest of the football program who is asking WTF? That may not be what the punished was designed for, but it’s the practical effect the punishment will have. And if there are no sanctions, it leaves an out for every future offender to simply fire a fall guy and then claim that the incident’s been taken care of and it won’t happen again. Penn State’s not unique in having an athletic program whose influence is way out of proportion with its academic mission, and it’s just dumb luck that Sandusky coached there instead of Texas (sorry, **HH** ) or Miami or Ohio State. The fact that this situation could have happened at any number of schools is why the NCAA _had to_ do something. And you noted before that the sanctions are going to have less of an impact on the players and the community than any of the other proposed courses of action. > [@](#): > > But all of the talent will leave. And great, what we have left is a TE who hasn’t caught a pass since 8th grade and a QB who played RB in JC. Well, yeah, it sucks to be a fan of Penn State right now. Oh well. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/penn-st-hit-hard/629138.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/penn-st-hit-hard/629138.md?page=7)