# Penn & Teller's Bullshit series...is bullshit? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [August 28, 2006, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/penn-tellers-bullshit-series-is-bullshit/370534 "2006-08-28T15:51:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2006, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/penn-tellers-bullshit-series-is-bullshit/370534/81 "2006-08-29T22:29:28Z")
Actually, I think she brings up an interesting point. I think what she’s saying is that she understands her situation, and that she’s profiting from animal testing, but that while that is bad she believes the good side (allowing her to continue to fight against animal testing) _outweighs_ the bad. I’m not entirely sure that makes her a hypocrite. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2006, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/penn-tellers-bullshit-series-is-bullshit/370534/82 "2006-08-29T23:29:31Z")
[QUOTE=Revenant Threshold] Actually, I think she brings up an interesting point. I think what she’s saying is that she understands her situation, and that she’s profiting from animal testing, but that while that is bad she believes the good side (allowing her to continue to fight against animal testing) _outweighs_ the bad. I’m not entirely sure that makes her a hypocrite. [/QUOTE] PETA’s platform calls for the outlawing of all animal testing. PETA has provided financial and moral support to people who have fire-bombed animal testing labs. I’m pretty sure she is a hypocrite. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2006, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/penn-tellers-bullshit-series-is-bullshit/370534/83 "2006-08-29T23:37:23Z")
Of course, Sweetland’s a hypocrite. She says she’s opposed to animal products but she justifies her own use of insulin because she’s fighting for animal rights - in other words it’s okay for her to personally violate her standards of what constitutes animal abuse because she’s trying to stop other people from violating those standards. When you try to argue that other people should follow rules that you’re excused from, you’re being a hypocrite. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2006, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/penn-tellers-bullshit-series-is-bullshit/370534/84 "2006-08-30T00:04:53Z")
Y’know, I’m with all the people who are tired of the “hypocrite” charge. It’s ludicrous to imagine that the only immoral action is to violate your own professed code of conduct. Why can’t we condemn the code of conduct that such people profess? There are much worse things than hypocrisy. Hypocrisy is a pecadillo, not a mortal sin. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2006, 3:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/penn-tellers-bullshit-series-is-bullshit/370534/85 "2006-08-30T03:53:13Z")
Hypocrisy isn’t the only sin, but it’s a major one - look how many problems in the world have been caused by people trying to tell other people what to do. One of the few effective restraints on this behavior is forcing people to live under the conditions they helped create. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2006, 4:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/penn-tellers-bullshit-series-is-bullshit/370534/86 "2006-08-30T04:33:35Z")
[QUOTE=Otto] If she was an adult diabetic _who was opposed to animal testing_ then you _might_ be able to make a charge of hypocrisy stick although ITSM that it’s not so black and white. Saying she’s a hypocrite based on what she may have done when she believed different things than she believes now is not reasonable. For instance, I’m a vegetarian but I ate meat for about 20 years of my life. Am I a hypocrite if I speak out now against eating meat because I used to eat it myself? I don’t think I am. [/QUOTE] I’d say it was awfully convenient that she had her moral revelation after her life no longer depended on animal-derived insulin. As I find her opinion on medical testing on animals morally repugnant, I’m not inclined to give her the benefit of the doubt when it comes to her claims of what she believed and when she believed it. Although it’s academic now, as **flight** ’s cite\* shows that the woman admits that the insulin she’s currently using violates her stated principles, but that she’s just so gosh-darn important that she gets to violate them. Hypocrite, with a huge ego. [sub]\*Hee![/sub] ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2006, 4:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/penn-tellers-bullshit-series-is-bullshit/370534/87 "2006-08-30T04:37:14Z")
[QUOTE=Contrapuntal] PETA’s platform calls for the outlawing of all animal testing. PETA has provided financial and moral support to people who have fire-bombed animal testing labs. I’m pretty sure she is a hypocrite. [/QUOTE] Quite possibly. I’m just saying she isn’t a hypocrite for her usage of insulin. She may very well be a hypocrite in many other ways. If only I had thought to say “I’m not entirely sure that makes her a hypocrite” and not “I’m not entirely sure she’s a hypocrite”. Ah, missed opportunities. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2006, 10:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/penn-tellers-bullshit-series-is-bullshit/370534/88 "2006-08-30T10:41:05Z")
[QUOTE=Lemur866] Y’know, I’m with all the people who are tired of the “hypocrite” charge. It’s ludicrous to imagine that the only immoral action is to violate your own professed code of conduct. Why can’t we condemn the code of conduct that such people profess? There are much worse things than hypocrisy. Hypocrisy is a pecadillo, not a mortal sin. [/QUOTE] People get so vexed by hypocrisy not because it’s so destructive or evil, but because it’s so ANNOYING. Particularly when it’s someone whom you might agree with in some way who destroys his/her own credibility by being a hypocrite. Oh, and if this thread had been any more effectively hijacked, there would be terrorists appearing on CNN demanding passage to Cuba and blowjobs from Campbell Brown. ---
**Author:** ![flight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbce88/32.png) [@flight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flight)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2006, 1:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/penn-tellers-bullshit-series-is-bullshit/370534/89 "2006-08-30T13:21:24Z")
[QUOTE=Revenant Threshold] Quite possibly. I’m just saying she isn’t a hypocrite for her usage of insulin. She may very well be a hypocrite in many other ways. If only I had thought to say “I’m not entirely sure that makes her a hypocrite” and not “I’m not entirely sure she’s a hypocrite”. Ah, missed opportunities. [/QUOTE] I don’t get this. She believes that people should never use anything made from animal products. Shes uses something made from animal products. She is a huypocrite. She justifies her actions by their value to the cause, but that justification doesn’t relieve her of hypocrisy. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2006, 1:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/penn-tellers-bullshit-series-is-bullshit/370534/90 "2006-08-30T13:26:45Z")
Hmmmm… I hate to leap into such a heated argument halfway, but is it actually PETA’s official position that we could immediately and entirely cease exploitation of animals, instantly, say, tonight? Or is it that they wish to wean humanity off dependence on animals as _quickly and completely as practically possible_? ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2006, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/penn-tellers-bullshit-series-is-bullshit/370534/91 "2006-08-30T13:54:06Z")
[QUOTE=Mangetout] Hmmmm… I hate to leap into such a heated argument halfway, but is it actually PETA’s official position that we could immediately and entirely cease exploitation of animals, instantly, say, tonight? Or is it that they wish to wean humanity off dependence on animals as _quickly and completely as practically possible_? [/QUOTE] [Here’s](http://www.peta.org/about/) the Mission Statement. Read into it what you will. Whether or not PETA believes that exploitation could end immediately, the fact remains that they support, both financially and morally, groups that fire bomb labs that do animal testing. That suggests to me that they are in the business of immediate change, through violence if necessary. Their website asserts that diabetes can be controlled without insulin. Sweetland states [here](http://www.defeatingdiabetes.com/control.asp) that she now uses a synthetic insulin, but neglects to add that it contains some animal products. For her to take the position that her use of it is justified while others’ is not is hypocritical. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2006, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/penn-tellers-bullshit-series-is-bullshit/370534/92 "2006-08-30T15:00:12Z")
[QUOTE=flight] I don’t get this. She believes that people should never use anything made from animal products. Shes uses something made from animal products. She is a huypocrite. She justifies her actions by their value to the cause, but that justification doesn’t relieve her of hypocrisy. [/QUOTE] I would say the justification does relieve her of hypocrisy, at least in this case. She’s accepted that her actions are contradictory to her beliefs, but she’s saying that the benefit outweighs the problems. Now, if she’s said that there are no circumstances in which using products from animal testing is ok - that there are no “special situations” in which it’s reasonable to do so - then yes, that’d make her a hypocrite. Quite possibly she’s said that, too, since it seems like one of those sweeping statements an animal rights activist would use. But until then, I don’t think she’s a hypocrite. ---
**Author:** ![Nonsuch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nonsuch/32/2922_2.png) [@Nonsuch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nonsuch)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2006, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/penn-tellers-bullshit-series-is-bullshit/370534/93 "2006-08-30T15:07:54Z")
Two pages and no one’s mentioned the “Sex” episode of _Bullshit_? With all the naked people striding around? One of the finest television half-hours I’ve seen. Much more interesting than arguing _ad nauseum_ about PETA. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2006, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/penn-tellers-bullshit-series-is-bullshit/370534/94 "2006-08-30T15:10:34Z")
I’m not sure that this quote is being taken in context. If it is (and if I had to bet, I’d bet that it is), then yeah, hypocrisy is a very fair charge against her. But by searching PETA’s website for “insulin,” I came across [this article by her](http://www.defeatingdiabetes.com/control.asp). In it, she doesn’t advocate that diabetics give up insulin; instead, she advocates that they use other measures to minimize the amount of insulin that they take: > [@](#): > > [F]ive years after I became diabetic, I discovered that the real secret to being a healthy diabetic is to adopt a vegan diet. Being able to cut my dosage from more than 50 units of insulin in the morning when I first became diabetic to taking only 15 units today can be directly attributed to not eating any animal products. Instead, I eat lots of legumes, vegetables, and carbohydrates, and I stay away from fat as much as possible. I believe that fat may be more dangerous to diabetics than sugar-a small bag of potato chips sends my glucose sky-high. > > When I exercise regularly, I have to take even less insulin! The Stairmaster or 30 minutes of quick walking every day are excellent ways to lower your need for insulin. Because I now use Humulin, a synthetically produced insulin much more appropriate for the human animal, I have regained the muscle mass that I lost when I was on animal-based insulin. Her science may be questionable, but it appears here that she’s calling for diabetics to take the least-harmful path to animals that still keeps the diabetic healthy, not calling for them to die rather than take animal-derived insulin. That seems to me to be a consistent position. It doesn’t seem to jibe with the earlier quote, though. If the earlier quote had left off the last sentence–“I need my life to fight for the rights of animals”–it would be innocuous. It’s the last sentence that really grates, with its not-so-subtle implication that those who don’t fight for the rights of animals don’t need their lives as much. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2006, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/penn-tellers-bullshit-series-is-bullshit/370534/95 "2006-08-30T15:13:04Z")
[This is also interesting](http://www.stopanimaltests.com/feat/gta/Medtronic.asp): > [@](#): > > Medtronic is one of the top manufacturers of medical devices in the world, marketing a range of products that includes cardiac pacemakers, defibrillators, valves, stents, and insulin pumps. Government regulations require a certain amount of animal testing for medical products, but companies are afforded some flexibility to choose which tests they will use to establish the safety and effectiveness of new products. > > PETA’s “Give the Animals 5” Campaign calls on companies to abandon five crude and cruel animal tests and replace them with state-of-the-art and scientifically valid non-animal methods that are already in use in other countries. With the help of PETA supporters who hold stock in Medtronic, a resolution was filed in the spring of 2005, calling on the company to do the following: > > [a bunch of animal-rights stuff] > > **Based on subsequent discussions between Medtronic executives and PETA’s science advisors, PETA voluntarily withdrew its shareholder resolution.** (emphasis added) Why, I wonder, did PETA withdraw its resolution? Daniel ---
**Author:** ![control-z](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/eada6e/32.png) [@control-z](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/control-z)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2006, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/penn-tellers-bullshit-series-is-bullshit/370534/96 "2006-08-30T15:17:33Z")
[QUOTE=Nonsuch] Two pages and no one’s mentioned the “Sex” episode of _Bullshit_? With all the naked people striding around? One of the finest television half-hours I’ve seen. Much more interesting than arguing _ad nauseum_ about PETA. [/QUOTE] No, everyone appears to be off on a PETA tangent. Start a new thread, people! ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2006, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/penn-tellers-bullshit-series-is-bullshit/370534/97 "2006-08-30T15:38:26Z")
[QUOTE=Unauthorized Cinnamon] I kind of think it’s part of the beauty of the show. If you turn off your brain and just believe what P&T spoon-feed you, you’re as gullible as the rubes they show believing in John Edward (TBDITU)… [/QUOTE] Never saw the acronym “TBDITU” before, and my Google-fu has failed me. What’s it mean? ---
**Author:** ![Bill\_Door](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/50afbb/32.png) [@Bill\_Door](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bill_Door)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2006, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/penn-tellers-bullshit-series-is-bullshit/370534/98 "2006-08-30T16:59:38Z")
[QUOTE=Elendil’s Heir] Never saw the acronym “TBDITU” before, and my Google-fu has failed me. What’s it mean? [/QUOTE] **T** he **B** iggest **D** ouchebag **I** n **T** he **U** niverse. It’s from “South Park” ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2006, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/penn-tellers-bullshit-series-is-bullshit/370534/99 "2006-08-31T03:35:42Z")
I see; thanks. There’ve gotta be some better claimants to the title, though, doncha think…? ---
**Author:** ![ChordedZither](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e9c0ed/32.png) [@ChordedZither](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ChordedZither)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2006, 3:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/penn-tellers-bullshit-series-is-bullshit/370534/100 "2006-08-31T03:52:09Z")
[QUOTE=Mangetout] I’d like to like P&T’s _Bullshit!_, but… Ultimately, it doesn’t matter whether the position they adopt on any given issue is wrong or right; they attack the subject with fallacious arguments - every show is overflowing with ad-hominem, quote-mining and strawmen. I mean, I admire his hard-headed, no-nonsense style of presentation, but I get the impression Penn could argue the case for anything he liked, and appear every bit as plausible, regardless of truth. [/QUOTE] I entirely agree, but I think that having Penn do it for so many episodes is like having a magician who works the same trick over and over again. Eventually, you just get tired of seeing the same sleight of hand, even if he keeps changing the patter. In too many cases, P&T resort to ridiculing their targets (and, let’s be honest, some of these people are pretty easy targets) rather than actually offering any counter-evidence. It’s all too easy to poke fun at a cause by selecting its most ludicrous spokespeople to put on camera, which seems to be their stock in trade. They are fond of accusing others of “cherry-picking” evidence. Yet, they are clearly willing to do the same. In the episode on 2nd hand smoke, for example, they proclaim that “there is no scientific basis for the belief that second-hand smoke harms people”, show the cover page of an oft-cited scientific paper from the W.H.O., highlighting **one** sentence in the abstract that says the study found no link between childhood exposure and alter cancer. A-ha, they say, no scientific evidence! But if you hit pause and read the very **next** sentence after that highlighted one, it says that the W.H.O. **did** find evidence of a link between spousal and workplace exposure and lung cancer. By flashing something in front of us for a short time, using a video highlight to direct our attention to a selected place, they try to convince us that we have actually seen just what they _claim_ we would see. It’s misdirection, pure and simple. Well, by golly, they **are** stage magicians, aren’t they? I enjoyed the first episode or two, then started getting annoyed as it became obvious that they were pulling the same schtick over and over again. By the end of the 4th episode, I already felt that the fun was gone, and they just came off as rather manipulative and mean-spirited. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/penn-tellers-bullshit-series-is-bullshit/370534.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/penn-tellers-bullshit-series-is-bullshit/370534.md?page=6)