# Pennsylvania college cancels play after author objects to white actors **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 21, 2015, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pennsylvania-college-cancels-play-after-author-objects-to-white-actors/738138 "2015-11-21T01:03:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2015, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pennsylvania-college-cancels-play-after-author-objects-to-white-actors/738138/201 "2015-11-24T21:00:18Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > Well, at least not when the “technicalities” contradict your preferred interpretation of events, right? No, they don’t matter because even with a fully executed and iron clad contract Suh almost certainly had the legal right to do what he did. Ultimately this is a moral and ethical question. Suh has the moral and ethical right to control his work, but he does not have the moral and ethical right to do so in a way that doesn’t cause harm to innocent victims. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2015, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pennsylvania-college-cancels-play-after-author-objects-to-white-actors/738138/202 "2015-11-24T21:01:29Z")
> [@treis](#): > > No, they don’t matter because even with a fully executed and iron clad contract Suh almost certainly had the legal right to do what he did. Ultimately this is a moral and ethical question. Suh has the moral and ethical right to control his work, but he does not have the moral and ethical right to do so in a way that doesn’t cause harm to innocent victims. What victims? ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2015, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pennsylvania-college-cancels-play-after-author-objects-to-white-actors/738138/203 "2015-11-24T21:04:35Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …cite for this please. The word “ambiguous” is not used in your cite. > [@](#): > > While the totality of the agreement prepared by Suh’s agency required signatures by both parties, a phrase early in the agreement (“when signed by you” as opposed to, say, “when signed by us both”) could suggest that only an official Clarion signature and a payment was required. Clarion maintains that they nonetheless returned a signed contract and made the required payment, which was accepted; the agency acknowledges receipt of the payment but not the signed contract, which is why a countersigned agreement was never returned to Clarion. Short of legal discovery to reveal all communications between the parties, the discrepancy over the sending and receipt of the agreement cannot be sorted definitively. Read cites people. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2015, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pennsylvania-college-cancels-play-after-author-objects-to-white-actors/738138/204 "2015-11-24T21:05:36Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > What victims? The students that put their time and effort into performing a play that they now do not get to perform. Did you miss my previous post when I quoted them? ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2015, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pennsylvania-college-cancels-play-after-author-objects-to-white-actors/738138/205 "2015-11-24T21:07:11Z")
> [@treis](#): > > The students that put their time and effort into performing a play that they now do not get to perform. Did you miss my previous post when I quoted them? Ah. By “victims” you mean “third parties uninvolved in the contract negotiations, to whom Suh had no moral and ethical obligations whatsoever.” Got it. Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2015, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pennsylvania-college-cancels-play-after-author-objects-to-white-actors/738138/206 "2015-11-24T21:08:34Z")
> [@treis](#): > > You have read the cite? Specifically the part where Michel says: > > So the contract not being executed correctly isn’t her fault. …Michel is the professor of theatre in the Department of Visual and Performing Arts at Clarion University who was turning this play into a freaking musical. If she didn’t at least read the contract then she is at the very least negligent. And if she had read the contract and continued the production as is without consulting the agent that makes her, in your words, an asshole. She’s just passing the buck. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2015, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pennsylvania-college-cancels-play-after-author-objects-to-white-actors/738138/207 "2015-11-24T21:13:13Z")
> [@treis](#): > > Read cites people. …I read it, but still can’t see the bit where the contract was ambiguous. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2015, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pennsylvania-college-cancels-play-after-author-objects-to-white-actors/738138/208 "2015-11-24T21:17:54Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > Ah. > > By “victims” you mean “third parties uninvolved in the contract negotiations, to whom Suh had no moral and ethical obligations whatsoever.” > > Got it. Thanks. Of course Suh has moral and ethical obligations to them. Suh willingly entered into discussions and a relationship with their representatives that lasted nearly a year. When he chooses to enter into things like that he accepts the duty to act ethically and bears responsibility for the damage he causes when he doesn’t. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2015, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pennsylvania-college-cancels-play-after-author-objects-to-white-actors/738138/209 "2015-11-24T21:33:58Z")
> [@treis](#): > > Of course Suh has moral and ethical obligations to them. Suh willingly entered into discussions and a relationship with their representatives that lasted nearly a year. When he chooses to enter into things like that he accepts the duty to act ethically and bears responsibility for the damage he causes when he doesn’t. > [@](#): > > “My first contact with Clarion was in January, when Marilouise Michel requested a copy of the play and invited me to work on it with her students. Due to other commitments, I was unable to participate, but I did express willingness to let them use the play for classroom purposes without me.” > [@](#): > > “I didn’t hear anything again until late May, when I was informed they were experimenting with the piece as a musical. It is highly atypical to do such work without direct collaboration from the author, so I asked for more information.” > [@](#): > > “I did not hear anything else from anyone at Clarion again until October 30, well into the rehearsal process.” …permission was given to use the play for classroom purposes. When informed that they were experimenting with the piece as a musical, he asked for clarification, and didn’t get it. The next he heard back from the school was in October 30, well into the rehearsal process. Your characterization that “Suh willingly entered into discussions and a relationship with their representatives that lasted nearly a year” is disingenuous at best. And also irrelevant. A discussion is not an obligation. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2015, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pennsylvania-college-cancels-play-after-author-objects-to-white-actors/738138/210 "2015-11-24T21:57:57Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …permission was given to use the play for classroom purposes. **When informed that they were experimenting with the piece as a musical, he asked for clarification, and didn’t get it.** The next he heard back from the school was in October 30, well into the rehearsal process. Your characterization that “Suh willingly entered into discussions and a relationship with their representatives that lasted nearly a year” is disingenuous at best. And also irrelevant. A discussion is not an obligation. He says he didn’t get it. The article I posted says this: > [@](#): > > It’s important to know that the planned production of Jesus in India at Clarion transformed the play, which had a few songs, into a full-blown musical. With permission from the playwright, Michel commissioned an original score which ran to 21 songs and underscoring. The\*\* playwright and his agent approved the composer\*\*, but for this one production, did not seek approval over the material itself. [http://www.hesherman.com/2015/11/13/erasing-race-on-stage-at-clarion-university/](http://www.hesherman.com/2015/11/13/erasing-race-on-stage-at-clarion-university/) I can’t emphasis this enough. Read. The. Cite. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2015, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pennsylvania-college-cancels-play-after-author-objects-to-white-actors/738138/211 "2015-11-24T22:09:04Z")
> [@treis](#): > > He says he didn’t get it. The article I posted says this: > > [» Erasing Race On Stage At Clarion University Howard Sherman](http://www.hesherman.com/2015/11/13/erasing-race-on-stage-at-clarion-university/) > > I can’t emphasis this enough. Read. The. Cite. …I can’t emphasis this enough. I’ve. Read. The. Freaking. Cite. The composer was approved based on the originally agreed usage of “classroom purposes” only. Clarification was sought on the nature of the performance. That clarification wasn’t given until October 30th. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2015, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pennsylvania-college-cancels-play-after-author-objects-to-white-actors/738138/212 "2015-11-24T22:14:32Z")
> [@treis](#): > > Of course Suh has moral and ethical obligations to them. Suh willingly entered into discussions and a relationship with their representatives that lasted nearly a year. When he chooses to enter into things like that he accepts the duty to act ethically and bears responsibility for the damage he causes when he doesn’t. He has acted ethically. He has no obligation to do the college’s legal work for them. If the students have been let down by anyone in all of this, it is by their own theater director, and by the department chair and the student association who, per your own cites, are the ones who fucked up with the contract negotiations. You claim to believe that Suh actually does have the moral and legal right to control the use of his work, but you have spent the whole thread suggesting that he is an asshole for not giving up those rights in order to fix a problem that was, for the most part, created by the representatives of the college. By your logic, if i promise a bunch of kids a bus trip to the zoo, but i steal a bus in order to take them, the bus owner, in order to be fair to the kids, has an obligation to allow me to take them to the zoo before i return his stolen bus. Genius! ---
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2015, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pennsylvania-college-cancels-play-after-author-objects-to-white-actors/738138/213 "2015-11-24T22:41:35Z")
Well, there we get into the meat of it. As we’ve seen in this thread, there are a lot of people who think that the issue over which this was objected to is silly and should never matter to anyone. That’s what this thread comes down to, really. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2015, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pennsylvania-college-cancels-play-after-author-objects-to-white-actors/738138/214 "2015-11-24T22:42:50Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > He has acted ethically. He has no obligation to do the college’s legal work for them. If the students have been let down by anyone in all of this, it is by their own theater director, and by the department chair and the student association who, per your own cites, are the ones who fucked up with the contract negotiations. My cite doesn’t assign blame to who fucked up the contract. Read closer. And again, the contract negotiations are irrelevant. Even with a fully executed contract, Suh likely had the legal right to do what he did. > [@mhendo](#): > > You claim to believe that Suh actually does have the moral and legal right to control the use of his work, but you have spent the whole thread suggesting that he is an asshole for not giving up those rights in order to fix a problem that was, for the most part, created by the representatives of the college. I don’t agree that this was caused by the representatives of the college. Their one mistake, not ensuring that the contract was fully executed, wouldn’t have materially changed the outcome. Even with a fully executed contract, Suh almost certainly retained enough artistic control to enforce his no whites policy. Again, the point is not Suh exercising artistic control. It is when he did it. > [@mhendo](#): > > By your logic, if i promise a bunch of kids a bus trip to the zoo, but i steal a bus in order to take them, the bus owner, in order to be fair to the kids, has an obligation to allow me to take them to the zoo before i return his stolen bus. > > Genius! The situation is more akin to: you spent a year speaking with the owner of the bus, sign a contract saying you can use the bus, paid him, made modifications to the bus, and then a week before your trip he cancels saying “I don’t want any white kids on my bus”. Then he’s an asshole. It doesn’t matter that he can find a legal technicality to get out of his contract. ---
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2015, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pennsylvania-college-cancels-play-after-author-objects-to-white-actors/738138/215 "2015-11-24T23:12:03Z")
I don’t get what you think happened here. Do you think the school and the playwright communicated for twelve months and the casting requirement didn’t come up once? Or that the realities were fully communicated to him, and he just waited until the last minute out of fun? ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2015, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pennsylvania-college-cancels-play-after-author-objects-to-white-actors/738138/216 "2015-11-24T23:19:37Z")
> [@Leaper](#): > > Well, there we get into the meat of it. As we’ve seen in this thread, there are a lot of people who think that the issue over which this was objected to is silly and should never matter to anyone. That’s what this thread comes down to, really. In a way, it does. You’re right. And if **treis** had just said “The guy is an asshole for objecting to white people in his play,” that is pretty much all he needed to say, and he could have avoided all his contorted efforts to make Suh look bad. The hilarious thing about **treis** ’s approach to this is that he will claim in one breath that the contract technicalities don’t matter, and then spend paragraphs teasing out the nuances of who saw the contracts, who signed the contracts, who was responsible for the contracts, etc., etc., etc. If the contract technicalities don’t matter, none of that should even be relevant. If you believe that Suh’s policy is silly, that can still be treated as a separate issue to the question of these contract negotiations and his copyright authority over the use of his work. That’s what i’ve been doing. I don’t think i’ve even weighed in yet on whether i agree or disagree with his objections to having white people in his play. For the record, if you or anyone else is interested, my general position on Suh’s attitude to race and ethnicity of the actors, and what i would say to him if he asked me my opinion on the issue, is something like this: I understand why he places the restrictions on actors’ race and ethnicity in his plays, and i understand and applaud his desire to create roles explicitly for people of color. I think that this sort of thing serves as a reasonable corrective to the historical marginalization of people of color in the entertainment industry, and i don’t think that it’s racism to place these sorts of requirements on his plays. I would also suggest to him, however, that if the play itself speaks to important issues, then maybe it might, in some cases, be better to have it performed using white actors than not performed at all, especially in places where there might not be enough minorities even to fill the part. I would suggest that, in cases like the one under discussion here, he might think about allowing them to use the play, with the condition that an announcement be made before the show regarding the playwright’s desire for a non-white cast, and maybe also a more general comment or discussion of the limited opportunities for people of color in major theatrical roles. Maybe under those conditions, the play to could actually serve to further the cause of raising awareness about the issue, even in cases where the “wrong” people were playing the parts. After making those points, i would respect his right to disagree with me, and his right to hold his line on who can and cannot play the parts in the play. And i would respect those rights from a legal and a moral and ethical standpoint. ---
**Author:** ![NAF1138](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/naf1138/32/3245_2.png) [@NAF1138](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NAF1138)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2015, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pennsylvania-college-cancels-play-after-author-objects-to-white-actors/738138/217 "2015-11-24T23:37:46Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > For the record, if you or anyone else is interested, my general position on Suh’s attitude to race and ethnicity of the actors, and what i would say to him if he asked me my opinion on the issue, is something like this: > > I understand why he places the restrictions on actors’ race and ethnicity in his plays, and i understand and applaud his desire to create roles explicitly for people of color. I think that this sort of thing serves as a reasonable corrective to the historical marginalization of people of color in the entertainment industry, and i don’t think that it’s racism to place these sorts of requirements on his plays. > > I would also suggest to him, however, that if the play itself speaks to important issues, then maybe it might, in some cases, be better to have it performed using white actors than not performed at all, especially in places where there might not be enough minorities even to fill the part. I would suggest that, in cases like the one under discussion here, he might think about allowing them to use the play, with the condition that an announcement be made before the show regarding the playwright’s desire for a non-white cast, and maybe also a more general comment or discussion of the limited opportunities for people of color in major theatrical roles. Maybe under those conditions, the play to could actually serve to further the cause of raising awareness about the issue, even in cases where the “wrong” people were playing the parts. > > After making those points, i would respect his right to disagree with me, and his right to hold his line on who can and cannot play the parts in the play. And i would respect those rights from a legal and a moral and ethical standpoint. That was very eloquently put. I don’t really have more to add, but that was well said and very sane. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2015, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pennsylvania-college-cancels-play-after-author-objects-to-white-actors/738138/218 "2015-11-24T23:42:43Z")
> [@treis](#): > > It is when he did it. …he chose to do it immediately on discovering that the college had changed the agreed upon usage of the play. Which was October 30th. The only way for him to be able to it sooner would be if the college **had told him sooner**. Or if he had a time machine. Do you understand how people make their money in creative fields? I’m a photographer. I don’t “sell” my images. I licence them. When I licence an image, the client agrees to only use that image in certain ways. I can tell them that the image can only be used on the internet. Or that it can only be used in print. Or they can only use that image for five years. If a client wants to change the usage they have to ask first. I can choose to allow the change in usage either for a fee or for free, or I can say no. This is all really basic stuff. And it is the sort of thing that the professor of theatre in the Department of Visual and Performing Arts at Clarion University would be expected to know but in this case both she and the college have shown extraordinary ignorance. ---
**Author:** ![slash2k](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/439d5e/32.png) [@slash2k](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/slash2k)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2015, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pennsylvania-college-cancels-play-after-author-objects-to-white-actors/738138/219 "2015-11-24T23:56:09Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …he chose to do it immediately on discovering that the college had changed the agreed upon usage of the play. > > Which was October 30th. When did Suh’s AGENT find out about the usage? To me, that’s still not clear, but certainly there were far more contacts between the college and the agent than between the college and Suh himself. If the agent knew, well, look at the definition of “agent” (“a person who acts on behalf of another”). If the agent acting on Suh’s behalf didn’t communicate well with Suh (which is a big “if” but certainly part of the impression I’m forming), how is that Clarion’s problem? > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > I’m a photographer. I don’t “sell” my images. I licence them. When I licence an image, the client agrees to only use that image in certain ways. I can tell them that the image can only be used on the internet. Or that it can only be used in print. Or they can only use that image for five years. > > If a client wants to change the usage they have to ask first. I can choose to allow the change in usage either for a fee or for free, or I can say no. And if your agent sends me a contract, then takes my money, can I assume that your agent has the power to authorize my usage, or do I have to bypass your agent and get your permission specifically? ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2015, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pennsylvania-college-cancels-play-after-author-objects-to-white-actors/738138/220 "2015-11-25T00:31:15Z")
> [@slash2k](#): > > When did Suh’s AGENT find out about the usage? …by all accounts the usage was not discovered until October 30th. > [@](#): > > "Instead, on October 30, I was asked whether I would be able to Skype with the actors. Usually my response would be of course. However, because I had no idea a production was even taking place, my reaction was What? > > So I searched online to find out what was happening, and saw photos that seemed to show two of the Indian characters portrayed by Caucasian actors, in total disregard for my earlier query. \*\*My agent immediately wrote to Ms. Michel for clarification. \*\*Her response on November 2 acknowledged receipt of our previous question on casting, but in her words: > > “When you asked, I hadn’t cast the show, and then I forgot.” > [@](#): > > To me, that’s still not clear, but certainly there were far more contacts between the college and the agent than between the college and Suh himself. If the agent knew, well, look at the definition of “agent” (“a person who acts on behalf of another”). If the agent acting on Suh’s behalf didn’t communicate well with Suh (which is a big “if” but certainly part of the impression I’m forming), how is that Clarion’s problem? If you have evidence to the contrary please feel free to post it here. Considering the way Clarion has acted in all of this if they had proof that the agent knew all along that this was going to be a public performance they would have revealed it by now. > [@](#): > > And if your agent sends me a contract, then takes my money, can I assume that your agent has the power to authorize my usage, or do I have to bypass your agent and get your permission specifically? It is only a fully executed license agreement once the agent has a copy of the contract in hand. And if that contract specified certain usage: then only that certain usage is authorised. If you want to change that usage, you ask the agent. The agent asks the writer. The writer either responds to the agent or goes directly to the client and either authorises the new usage or doesn’t. A new contract is written up and needs to be signed and returned before it is valid. This really isn’t that hard to figure out. As Suh stated: the first thing he did when he found out that the play was scheduled to be a public performance was to check if a fully executed license agreement existed: and it didn’t. If that licence agreement did exist: then Suh would have expected the school to abide by the usage stated in the agreement which would have been to use the play in the classroom only. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pennsylvania-college-cancels-play-after-author-objects-to-white-actors/738138.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pennsylvania-college-cancels-play-after-author-objects-to-white-actors/738138.md?page=12)