# Pennsylvania rednecks beat and kill Mexican illegal immigrant; get same sentence as beating a dog **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 18, 2009, 1:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pennsylvania-rednecks-beat-and-kill-mexican-illegal-immigrant-get-same-sentence-as-beating-a-dog/500166 "2009-06-18T13:26:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2009, 5:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pennsylvania-rednecks-beat-and-kill-mexican-illegal-immigrant-get-same-sentence-as-beating-a-dog/500166/81 "2009-06-19T05:21:44Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > 12 people disagree with you. It used to be that southern juries routinely used to look the other way when whites lynched blacks. That was a disgrace and this is a disgrace. It does not excuse the crime, it compounds the crime. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2009, 5:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pennsylvania-rednecks-beat-and-kill-mexican-illegal-immigrant-get-same-sentence-as-beating-a-dog/500166/82 "2009-06-19T05:34:59Z")
> [@sailor](#): > > It used to be that southern juries routinely used to look the other way when whites lynched blacks. That was a disgrace and this is a disgrace. It does not excuse the crime, it compounds the crime. That was 50 years ago. Again, no blame should attach to the jury here unless you know at least at much at they did. Which you certainly do not. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2009, 5:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pennsylvania-rednecks-beat-and-kill-mexican-illegal-immigrant-get-same-sentence-as-beating-a-dog/500166/83 "2009-06-19T05:57:57Z")
Well, at least they didn’t fine the poor white boys. [Woman fined $1.9 million for illegal song downloads - The BBQ Pit - Straight Dope Message Board](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=521603) This country is beyond disgusting in its justice system. Don’t steal from the corporations or you will be ruined for ever, but kill a brown guy, or torture him? We need to do it to keep the country safe. It’s fucking evil. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2009, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pennsylvania-rednecks-beat-and-kill-mexican-illegal-immigrant-get-same-sentence-as-beating-a-dog/500166/84 "2009-06-19T14:00:58Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > That was 50 years ago. Again, no blame should attach to the jury here unless you know at least at much at they did. Which you certainly do not. What we do know already is that this incident and the blatant racism prevailing in that town was already brought-up by a SD poster _from Shenandoah_ at the time the incident happened. [**I Weep for my Hometown**](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=476913) How’s **that** for some background? Disgusting that anyone would even make an attempt to excuse what happened there. ETA, I see he just posted again upthread. ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2009, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pennsylvania-rednecks-beat-and-kill-mexican-illegal-immigrant-get-same-sentence-as-beating-a-dog/500166/85 "2009-06-19T15:38:30Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > That was 50 years ago. Again, no blame should attach to the jury here unless you know at least at much at they did. Which you certainly do not. Of course the same was said 50 years ago: “you don’t know as much as the jury”. And yet people then knew it was wrong and we now universally confirm it was wrong. The prejudice of jurors and judges has lead and still leads to innumerable miscarriages of justices. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2009, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pennsylvania-rednecks-beat-and-kill-mexican-illegal-immigrant-get-same-sentence-as-beating-a-dog/500166/86 "2009-06-19T16:45:56Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > What we do know already is that this incident and the blatant racism prevailing in that town was already brought-up by a SD poster _from Shenandoah_ at the time the incident happened. > > Disgusting that anyone would even make an attempt to excuse what happened there. > > ETA, I see he just posted again upthread. Yes, he did and here’s the first line of his post " **hocow** _For what it’s worth, the jury are not to blame for the outcome of the trial. "_ Juries can only make decisions based upon the evidence provided to them, the arguments made, and the judges instructions. Based upon **hocows** post,\* the jury\* made the only decision they could. I am excusing the jury, not the outcome. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2009, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pennsylvania-rednecks-beat-and-kill-mexican-illegal-immigrant-get-same-sentence-as-beating-a-dog/500166/87 "2009-06-19T16:56:03Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Yes, he did and here’s the first line of his post " **hocow** _For what it’s worth, the jury are not to blame for the outcome of the trial. "_ > > Juries can only make decisions based upon the evidence provided to them, the arguments made, and the judges instructions. Based upon **hocows** post,\* the jury\* made the only decision they could. > > I am excusing the jury, not the outcome. Well he seems to be contradicting himself going by what he [wrote in the original thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=10039562&postcount=1): > [@hocow](#): > > …Shenandoah is a very “white” town. When I was growing up there was maybe a handful of minorities. Even today, our area is mostly white, with much tension between races. However, we have had an increase in the Hispanic population in recent years that is centered in Shenandoah due to an old priest who had connections with Mexico and Puerto Rico. This caused an uproar in the town that continues to this day. I had thought that it was dying down a bit, but unfortunately I was wrong. > > While I had not known Luis, my mom knew him as a customer at her workplace. She said he was a very sweet man. He was also hard working, as he was holding down two jobs in an effort to support his family. **But the only thing that sees to matter to most people is his race. The comments on the website for our local paper are horrifying. I have never seen such hate before, and it saddens and angers me. While there are many comments and people in support of his family, most of the comments are aimed at blaming them. They say that it wouldn’t have happened if he had stayed where he belongs, and are trying to make heroes out of the boys for helping to weed out the illegals. Even our town officials are trying to downplay the seriousness of it all. It is truly disheartening.** – my bolding. From said comments and in that environment, STM that the odds of that all-white jury being on the other side of racist is pretty high. Or did they all magically become color-blind when selected to jury duty? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2009, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pennsylvania-rednecks-beat-and-kill-mexican-illegal-immigrant-get-same-sentence-as-beating-a-dog/500166/88 "2009-06-19T17:05:03Z")
Only if you assume that comments on the website of the local paper represent the views of the majority of the population, which is unlikely. Half the comments on _any_ newspaper article relating to issues of race will be racist. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2009, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pennsylvania-rednecks-beat-and-kill-mexican-illegal-immigrant-get-same-sentence-as-beating-a-dog/500166/89 "2009-06-19T17:10:17Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > From said comments and in that environment, STM that the odds of that all-white jury being on the other side of racist is pretty high. Or did they all magically become color-blind when selected to jury duty? If the Prosecutor didn;t want an all white jury, then he should have made sure there were some others on the jury. It’s not the jury’s fault for that either. And, if the jury had been 100% Mexican, it still would have been “all white”. Do you think that the addition of a couple black dudes would have changed the evidence provided? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2009, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pennsylvania-rednecks-beat-and-kill-mexican-illegal-immigrant-get-same-sentence-as-beating-a-dog/500166/90 "2009-06-19T17:12:53Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Only if you assume that comments on the website of the local paper represent the views of the majority of the population, which is unlikely. Half the comments on _any_ newspaper article relating to issues of race will be racist. True, even if only a small % of the letters submitted are. Editors like the letters to rile readers up, get more letters, get dudes talking about the letters in the newspaper. Editors have also been known to edit a letter to make it sound worse than it really is, by “cutting for length”. Letters do not really reflect the views of a community. ---
**Author:** ![hocow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hocow/32/4112_2.png) [@hocow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hocow)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2009, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pennsylvania-rednecks-beat-and-kill-mexican-illegal-immigrant-get-same-sentence-as-beating-a-dog/500166/91 "2009-06-19T18:40:36Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > Well he seems to be contradicting himself going by what he [wrote in the original thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=10039562&postcount=1): > > – my bolding. > > From said comments and in that environment, STM that the odds of that all-white jury being on the other side of racist is pretty high. Or did they all magically become color-blind when selected to jury duty? I’m not contradicting myself. Read the comments on the links I gave. A good part of the population in my area is focused on the color of the victim’s skin and immigration status. However, there are still many that see the incident for what it is: the taking of one life by others. The ones who applaud the boys’ behavior and believe they did nothing wrong are ignorant to facts as well as basic human dignity. But, those who are calling the jury racist just because of the verdict are also ignorant. As **DrDeth** said, unless you were in the courtroom that day or read the transcripts you can’t know everything that was presented to the jury. Based on the live feeds provided by the news, as well as interviews with those inside the courtroom (including jurors), the verdict was proper. Guilt must be proven beyond a reasonable doubt. The only charges that had no doubt were simple assault and a few alcohol related charges. The jury can only work with what they are given. As for the all-white jury, that is just a matter of statistics. Schuylkill county is [96% white.](http://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/states/42/42107.html) Again, I hate the fact that a man’s life was taken with barely a slap on the wrist. But it seems the jury made the right call based on what was presented in court. I don’t think anyone would encourage a jury to act on their own feelings rather than make an assessment of evidence presented at trial. Sometimes a proper judgment seems unsavory, but in general the system succeeds more than it fails. The system worked as intended. Oh, and I’m a _she_. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Jeff\_Lichtman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jeff_lichtman/32/1531_2.png) [@Jeff\_Lichtman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jeff_Lichtman)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2009, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pennsylvania-rednecks-beat-and-kill-mexican-illegal-immigrant-get-same-sentence-as-beating-a-dog/500166/92 "2009-06-19T18:57:21Z")
> [@LonesomePolecat](#): > > A white reporter is murdered by[the black equivalent of the Ku Klux Klan](http://www.slate.com/id/2171745/)in Oakland, a criminal organization the police are too afraid to investigate closely, and there’s not a peep out of you sanctimonious pustules. Chauncey Bailey, the reporter who was killed in this case, was black, and was doing a series of articles on Your Black Muslim Bakery for the Oakland Post. The bakery was already under investigation for other alleged crimes. The Oakland police raided the bakery and made an arrest the day after the murder. Devaughndre Broussard, a handyman who worked at the bakery, confessed to the murder but then said he was put up to it by Yusuf Bey IV, the leader of the organization. The police and DA continued the investigation and now Bey and Antoine Mackey (another bakery employee) have been charged with murder. Anything else you’d like to get wrong? ---
**Author:** ![ivn1188](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e480ec/32.png) [@ivn1188](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivn1188)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2009, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pennsylvania-rednecks-beat-and-kill-mexican-illegal-immigrant-get-same-sentence-as-beating-a-dog/500166/93 "2009-06-19T19:40:18Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > If you read the thread, you’ll see that my first statement is “I can’t get too worked up about this”. I also pointed out that other accounts make it appear that the fight/beating was about a girl, rather than about race. You’re right, I was attributing other people’s posts to you. ---
**Author:** ![emcee2k](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7bcc69/32.png) [@emcee2k](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emcee2k)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2009, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pennsylvania-rednecks-beat-and-kill-mexican-illegal-immigrant-get-same-sentence-as-beating-a-dog/500166/94 "2009-06-19T19:41:15Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Exactly. Did \*you \*sit through **THIS** trial? I am not working with any information, except that I am pretty damn sure that anyone who second guesses a jury - _without at least reading the entire transcript_- is an idiot. > My experience is just that what a biased slanted news article tells you is not even close to what goes on in the courtroom and what the Jury is told. OK, give an example of what information might have been presented in the court room that isn’t available in the “biased articles” (which apparently includes any article I might have read) that would explain why a completely reasonable (and not stupid) jury would believe this was simply a “the result of a fight escalated by both sides”, and therefore not even worthy of an aggravated assault charge. The information I got from these biased articles is of an at least four against one fight that ended with the four side rather unscathed, and the one side dead. These articles also seemed to say that the one side was repeatedly kicked and punched even after being knocked unconscious and his skull was fractured. With this information, I don’t see how someone could believe this was just an “escalated fight”, without at the same time being stupid. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2009, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pennsylvania-rednecks-beat-and-kill-mexican-illegal-immigrant-get-same-sentence-as-beating-a-dog/500166/95 "2009-06-19T20:47:32Z")
Beaten to the post by **emcee**. But even beyond what he’s saying, if you guys wanna play the “super-duper secret info” a la WMDs card, seems to me the State’s Gov would have ways to access any and all evidence presented in the trial. And here’s what he had to say based on that: > [@Ed Rendall](#): > > **The evidence suggests that Mr. Ramirez was targeted, beaten and killed because he was Mexican, Rendell said. Such lawlessness and violence hurts not only the victim of the attack but also our towns and communities that are torn apart by such bigotry and intolerance.** – highlights mine. So, what now? ---
**Author:** ![hocow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hocow/32/4112_2.png) [@hocow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hocow)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2009, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pennsylvania-rednecks-beat-and-kill-mexican-illegal-immigrant-get-same-sentence-as-beating-a-dog/500166/96 "2009-06-19T21:31:52Z")
When talking about the four boys charged all together, yes there is evidence that it was racially motivated. For the two on trial, Donchak and Piekarsky, the evidence did not prove that either of those two were slinging ethnic slurs, nor who threw the fatal hit. Not to say they didn’t, but nothing at trial could prove that those two committed said acts. Regarding the two others charged, Brian Scully was charged as a juvenile and Colin Walsh pled guilty to federal charges. At the time of the trial, Scully had not yet been tried in juvenile court and may have been trying to make himself look less culpable with his testimony. The defense questioned his motives on the stand. Some reports stated that Scully was the one who yelled ethnic slurs during the fight. Walsh on the other hand, was originally supposed to be sitting next to Donchak and Piekarsky at that trial. He pled out in exchange for testimony. Perhaps he was tryig to make good on his deal to receive a lesser sentence. Some reports stated that it was he who threw the fatal hit, not Piekarsky. Therein lies the problem. There were many conflicting reports and a lacking in evidence to prove that these two boys (Piekarsky and Donchak) committed those specific acts. Several witnesses testified that they could not remember Piekarsky saying anything racial at all during the attack. Several witnesses also described the shoes worn by the one who gave that last kick. These shoes were never collected, so who’s to say who was wearing them. Also Ramirez’ head connected with ground after being struck in the face by Walsh. It was difficult to determine if that was the fatal blow, or if the kick to the head after he was already down was. A few said they saw Scully try to kick him but miss because he was too drunk. And when you’re drunk, you may not have perfect recollection of events. And so on and so on… Too many “what ifs” and uncertainties. The only thing proven about the two on trial is that they were involved in a fight and they were drunk. If the cops had done their job properly, the outcome of the trial probably would have been different. That is why the police department is under investigation. They mishandled the case before the State Police could take over, and by then it was too late. There is no doubt in my mind that nothing would have happened that night if Ramirez was a white man. No one in their right mind could honestly say that it wasn’t racially motivated. But one needs proof to convict. That’s all we’re saying. It could not be proven beyond a reasonable doubt. I keep emphasizing that because it is so important. If there is any doubt of guilt, one should not be convicted. That how the system is set up, and that’s what happened. The jury had doubt and, rightfully, didn’t convict of more serious charges. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2009, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pennsylvania-rednecks-beat-and-kill-mexican-illegal-immigrant-get-same-sentence-as-beating-a-dog/500166/97 "2009-06-19T22:56:42Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > Beaten to the post by **emcee**. But even beyond what he’s saying, if you guys wanna play the “super-duper secret info” a la WMDs card, seems to me the State’s Gov would have ways to access any and all evidence presented in the trial. And here’s what he had to say based on that: > > – highlights mine. > > So, what now? Rendell is looking to get re-elected, not for justice. The two may coincide.:dubious: In any case, he may well have access to info that the Jury didn’t hear. It’s not “super-secret” it’s it what evidence \*was \*presented to the jury, what testimony _they_ heard and what the judges instructions to the jury were. Unless you know all those things, no blaming the jury. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2009, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pennsylvania-rednecks-beat-and-kill-mexican-illegal-immigrant-get-same-sentence-as-beating-a-dog/500166/98 "2009-06-19T22:58:11Z")
> [@hocow](#): > > Therein lies the problem. There were many conflicting reports and a lacking in evidence to prove that these two boys (Piekarsky and Donchak) committed those specific acts. Several witnesses testified that they could not remember Piekarsky saying anything racial at all during the attack. Several witnesses also described the shoes worn by the one who gave that last kick. These shoes were never collected, so who’s to say who was wearing them. Also Ramirez’ head connected with ground after being struck in the face by Walsh. It was difficult to determine if that was the fatal blow, or if the kick to the head after he was already down was. A few said they saw Scully try to kick him but miss because he was too drunk. And when you’re drunk, you may not have perfect recollection of events. And so on and so on… > > Too many “what ifs” and uncertainties. The only thing proven about the two on trial is that they were involved in a fight and they were drunk. If the cops had done their job properly, the outcome of the trial probably would have been different. That is why the police department is under investigation. They mishandled the case before the State Police could take over, and by then it was too late. > > TIt could not be proven beyond a reasonable doubt. I keep emphasizing that because it is so important. If there is any doubt of guilt, one should not be convicted. That how the system is set up, and that’s what happened. The jury had doubt and, rightfully, didn’t convict of more serious charges. Exactly- _based upon the evidence present to them_,\*\* the jury had doubt and, rightfully, didn’t convict of more serious charges\*\* ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2009, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pennsylvania-rednecks-beat-and-kill-mexican-illegal-immigrant-get-same-sentence-as-beating-a-dog/500166/99 "2009-06-20T02:50:20Z")
So what you’re saying is, if a group where to beat one of these murderers to death, as long as it couldn’t be determined who landed the killing blow, no rightful jury would convict them? That’s real interesting… ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2009, 3:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pennsylvania-rednecks-beat-and-kill-mexican-illegal-immigrant-get-same-sentence-as-beating-a-dog/500166/100 "2009-06-20T03:01:22Z")
> [@hocow](#): > > Several witnesses testified that they could not remember Piekarsky saying anything racial at all during the attack. I’m not sure how that’s really relevant. If I beat up someone small, I call him a little twerp. If I beat up someone fat, I call him a lardball. Neither of these means that I have a hatred of short or fat people, it just means that people latch onto the most obvious insulting descriptor for someone when they’re kicking him in the belly. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pennsylvania-rednecks-beat-and-kill-mexican-illegal-immigrant-get-same-sentence-as-beating-a-dog/500166.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pennsylvania-rednecks-beat-and-kill-mexican-illegal-immigrant-get-same-sentence-as-beating-a-dog/500166.md?page=6)