# Pennsylvania Upholds Voter ID Law **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [August 15, 2012, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pennsylvania-upholds-voter-id-law/631582 "2012-08-15T17:21:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2012, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pennsylvania-upholds-voter-id-law/631582/221 "2012-08-17T18:54:39Z")
> [@davidm](#): > > That’s an excellent point. A DMV employee deciding who can and can’t vote, how wrong is that? Isn’t it the conservatives who always use DMVs as an example (justified or not) of government incompetence? And now here we are, with DMV employees deciding who can and can’t vote. And the conservatives seem to love it. Not at all. A person who feels he or she is legally entitled to vote but lacks a photo ID can cast a provisional ballot. And a person who feels the DMV has denied them an ID for improper reasons can seek judicial relief. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2012, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pennsylvania-upholds-voter-id-law/631582/222 "2012-08-17T18:58:24Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Not at all. A person who feels he or she is legally entitled to vote but lacks a photo ID can cast a provisional ballot. And a person who feels the DMV has denied them an ID for improper reasons can seek judicial relief. What an absurd suggestion. I’m sure a few thousand extra court cases will simply flow through the system like a springtime zephyr. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2012, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pennsylvania-upholds-voter-id-law/631582/223 "2012-08-17T18:59:51Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > Finding someone for whom it is impossible to vote is the wrong standard. No, it isn’t. _Brayman Construction Corp v. Department of Transportation_, 608 Pa 584 (2011) lays out the standard of proof required. Or is this one of those, “I didn’t mean _legally_ wrong, I meant ‘wrong’ as only I understand it, as revealed to me by the Great Spirit Manitou,” moments? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2012, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pennsylvania-upholds-voter-id-law/631582/224 "2012-08-17T19:02:00Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > What an absurd suggestion. > > I’m sure a few thousand extra court cases will simply flow through the system like a springtime zephyr. :rolleyes: Yours is the absurd suggestion, since right now you can’t identify even a single person who might be wrongly denied ID, and yet to want me to believe there will be a few thousand. But I’ll give you this: if, in fact, there are a few thousand court cases with these facts, I will absolutely acknowledge I was wrong. Will you, if there aren’t? ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2012, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pennsylvania-upholds-voter-id-law/631582/225 "2012-08-17T19:07:05Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > No, it isn’t. > > _Brayman Construction Corp v. Department of Transportation_, 608 Pa 584 (2011) lays out the standard of proof required. > > Or is this one of those, “I didn’t mean _legally_ wrong, I meant ‘wrong’ as only I understand it, as revealed to me by the Great Spirit Manitou?” moments? No, it’s my, _only a stupid person would think a solution to a problem that doesn’t have any evidence of existing but makes it harder for millions of Americans to vote_ moments. Voter ID laws: [ul] [li]Fight something that hasn’t been demonstrated to exist. [/li][li]Factually makes it more difficult for millions of Americans to vote.[/li][li]Lowers voter confidence because it makes it more difficult for millions of Americans to vote, while not stopping any significant amount of voter fraud.[/li][/ul] As I said, to establish if this is an intelligent law you need to see if it serves some public good. I don’t deny that it appears to be a legal law. Although if the DOJ suits overturn them, I guess we’ll see. I do deny that they are good laws. Slavery was legal at one point. It wasn’t a good law, ever. Interracial marriage was legally banned at one point. It wasn’t a good law. Voter ID laws that target likely Democrat voters may be technically legal, but it isn’t a good law. It is odd that you are unable to understand this. PM me and I’ll go over it with you a few times. ---
**Author:** ![davidm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidm/32/225_2.png) [@davidm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidm)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2012, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pennsylvania-upholds-voter-id-law/631582/226 "2012-08-17T19:07:49Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Not at all. A person who feels he or she is legally entitled to vote but lacks a photo ID can cast a provisional ballot. And a person who feels the DMV has denied them an ID for improper reasons can seek judicial relief. As I understand it, with a provisional ballot, you then have 7 days to prove that you are eligible. That’s 7 days, probably involving some time off from work, to somehow prove what you couldn’t prove at the polling place. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2012, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pennsylvania-upholds-voter-id-law/631582/227 "2012-08-17T19:10:57Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Yours is the absurd suggestion, since right now you can’t identify even a single person who might be wrongly denied ID, and yet to want me to believe there will be a few thousand. If I were to put a five hour poll tax on rich people, maybe you’d understand it. It is possible to get an ID (although it is certain to be functionally impossible for individual cases), but it is harder. And by making it harder you are going to cut the number of voters. And lo, as it happens, those voters are likely Dems. As I said, you’re using the wrong standard, and it is obvious that you’re obfuscating. > [@](#): > > But I’ll give you this: if, in fact, there are a few thousand court cases with these facts, I will absolutely acknowledge I was wrong. > > Will you, if there aren’t? No, because people who are disincentivzed to vote aren’t likely to file a court case. That’s part of why your comment was absurd and likely in bad faith. ---
**Author:** ![davidm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidm/32/225_2.png) [@davidm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidm)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2012, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pennsylvania-upholds-voter-id-law/631582/228 "2012-08-17T19:23:03Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Yours is the absurd suggestion, since right now you can’t identify even a single person who might be wrongly denied ID, and yet to want me to believe there will be a few thousand. You can argue that anybody, with enough time and resources, can get the needed ID, but that misses the point. The question isn’t whether or not it’s totally impossible to get the ID. The question is how difficult will it be to do so, and does it pose an additional burden, and how much of a burden, on some demographics more than on others. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2012, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pennsylvania-upholds-voter-id-law/631582/229 "2012-08-17T20:26:40Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Yours is the absurd suggestion, since right now you can’t identify even a single person who might be wrongly denied ID, and yet to want me to believe there will be a few thousand. > > But I’ll give you this: if, in fact, there are a few thousand court cases with these facts, I will absolutely acknowledge I was wrong. > > Will you, if there aren’t? Court case? Why is that the bar that must be reached? Is it the will of Mintou? Or would that be **Bricker**? People who have a hard time getting id, they are going to lawyer up and file cases? Can you recommend them a lawyer, goes for about $10 a billable hour? Republican Poker, as played by Amarillo **Bricker** : all your cards are dealt face up, he gets seven, you get five, and he gets to draw twice. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2012, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pennsylvania-upholds-voter-id-law/631582/230 "2012-08-17T20:39:31Z")
And just one more time, for the record. The issue is not “denying ID”, it’s not “disenfranchisement”, it is more insidious for being more subtle. It is hindrance, harassment, and discouragement. It isn’t about forbidding someone to vote, simply making it more difficult, to achieve a reduction in undesirable voters by making it an uphill struggle. This is a far more clever strategy than a naked effort at disenfranchisement. Much less likely to be overturned in court. And, just as you tirelessly point out, the essential fact of voter id is popular, it can be used to shield and protect all manner of partisan maneuvers. Not about “disenfranchisement”, not about “denying ID”. About making it more difficult. Yet, somehow, no matter how many times this is repeated to you, you keep trying to drag the argument to your own preferred standard. Do try and keep up, won’t you? There’s a good fellow… ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2012, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pennsylvania-upholds-voter-id-law/631582/231 "2012-08-17T21:05:19Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > No, it’s my, _only a stupid person would think a solution to a problem that doesn’t have any evidence of existing but makes it harder for millions of Americans to vote_ moments. So are the 74% of voters that favor these laws stupid? And is that an official Democratic position? It appears you want lots of people to vote, but also want to be able to veto anything they decid that you personally don’t like. What good is it to get all these votes, anyway? Why aren’t we just asking The Great Lobohan to tell us poor Schultz what’s good for us? ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2012, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pennsylvania-upholds-voter-id-law/631582/232 "2012-08-17T21:17:16Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > So are the 74% of voters that favor these laws stupid? And is that an official Democratic position? No, because many people are misinformed based on right-wing lies and misinformation. Like ACORN, for instance. In fact, you’ve said some things about ACORN that ended up giving a misleading impression that they were responsible for voter fraud. If you can be confused about the issue, I don’t see why someone who doesn’t follow politics so closely would be held to a higher standard. If you don’t have proper information, you aren’t stupid for coming up with an incorrect conclusion. > [@](#): > > It appears you want lots of people to vote, but also want to be able to veto anything they decid that you personally don’t like. Not at all. I want legislatures to make good law. This is a stupid law. And if all you can do is bleat an appeal to popularity to support it, well that speaks volumes. > [@](#): > > What good is it to get all these votes, anyway? Why aren’t we just asking The Great Lobohan to tell us poor Schultz what’s good for us? If I were emperor I guarantee you, the world would be slightly better off. 😃 Good policy isn’t a popularity contest. Banning interracial marriage was popular. Slavery was popular. ---
**Author:** ![davidm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidm/32/225_2.png) [@davidm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidm)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2012, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pennsylvania-upholds-voter-id-law/631582/233 "2012-08-17T21:26:34Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > So are the 74% of voters that favor these laws stupid? And is that an official Democratic position? 74% of voters have been mislead. If you ask people if people should be required to prove who they are in order to vote; who’s going to say no? It’s a simple straightforward question that ignores most of reality; including the fact that I already have to prove who I am when I vote. In PA, up till now, when I voted, I had to sign the book and they compared signatures. That’s good enough for cashing checks. It’s good enough for legally binding contracts. Hell, it’s good enough for the affidavit you have to sign at the DMV if you don’t have a birth certificate, and they don’t even have a signature on file to compare it to. Come to think of it, it was good enough for me to get a copy of my birth certificate for my passport. It’s a very clever ruse. There’s no question. Very few, if any, can claim that it’s impossible to vote. It’s just more difficult. It ends up reducing the number of votes, disproportionately in favor of Republicans, but hey, it’s their own fault if they don’t take off from work and spend hours in the DMV. It’s very clever. It’s very simple to say, “hey of course people should have to prove who they are to vote”, but more complicated and time consuming to explain the subtleties. And if we say that people don’t understand what’s involved, people like you tell them we think they’re stupid. Very clever. Diabolical. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2012, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pennsylvania-upholds-voter-id-law/631582/234 "2012-08-17T22:18:00Z")
nm oops ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2012, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pennsylvania-upholds-voter-id-law/631582/235 "2012-08-17T22:45:53Z")
Have you guys considered taking this argument to the Pit? I’m certain you could reach a consensus there. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2012, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pennsylvania-upholds-voter-id-law/631582/236 "2012-08-17T22:47:18Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > If I were emperor I guarantee you, the world would be slightly better off. You included a smiley, but I think there’s a lot of truth in what you say: you absolutely believe that your reign as Emperor would be best for the world. You suffer as a result, I think, from the liberal atheist version of antinomianism. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2012, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pennsylvania-upholds-voter-id-law/631582/237 "2012-08-17T23:05:17Z")
Either hearsay or heresy. Maybe both… And this just in… [http://www.philly.com/philly/blogs/cityhall/13-key-points-on-PA-Court-ruling-upholding-Voter-ID-law.html](http://www.philly.com/philly/blogs/cityhall/13-key-points-on-PA-Court-ruling-upholding-Voter-ID-law.html) **Pa. drops plans for 2 online initiatives to boost voting** > [@](#): > > On the same day a judge cleared the way for the state’s new voter identification law to take effect, the Corbett administration abandoned plans to allow voters to apply online for absentee ballots for the November election and to register online to vote. > > A spokesman for the Department of State said county elections officials told the agency that implementing the new online initiatives as well as voter ID requirements was too much to handle less than three months before the election… Are these the plans that the judge took “at face value”, because the lawyers for the state said so? ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2012, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pennsylvania-upholds-voter-id-law/631582/238 "2012-08-17T23:08:37Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > No, because many people are misinformed based on right-wing lies and misinformation. Like ACORN, for instance. In fact, you’ve said some things about ACORN that ended up giving a misleading impression that they were responsible for voter fraud. If you can be confused about the issue, I don’t see why someone who doesn’t follow politics so closely would be held to a higher standard. FYI - ACORN has pleaded guilty to election law violations in Las Vegas, voter registration fraud in Washington state, forging signatures on absentee ballots in Troy, N.Y., submitting false voter registration forms in Colorado Springs, Kansas City, MO, King County, WA, and Lake County, IN. They were just doing their civic doody, I suppose. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2012, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pennsylvania-upholds-voter-id-law/631582/239 "2012-08-17T23:08:48Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > You included a smiley, but I think there’s a lot of truth in what you say: you absolutely believe that your reign as Emperor would be best for the world. Not best. Slightly better. 😃 > [@](#): > > You suffer as a result, I think, from the liberal atheist version of antinomianism. For a man of your years, I am very impressed with how spry you are as you dodge from topic to topic. Good $2 word by the way. Hard to work into everyday conversation. I’m not sure how my strong devotion to a moral code, specifically that cheating and deceiving people is wrong, puts me in with the Antinomians. But I’m no theologist. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2012, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pennsylvania-upholds-voter-id-law/631582/240 "2012-08-17T23:12:50Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > FYI - ACORN has pleaded guilty to election law violations in Las Vegas, voter registration fraud in Washington state, forging signatures on absentee ballots in Troy, N.Y., submitting false voter registration forms in Colorado Springs, Kansas City, MO, King County, WA, and Lake County, IN. > > They were just doing their civic doody, I suppose. Question: Are you aware of what the words _voter fraud_ mean? Second Question: Are you aware of what crimes they were convicted of? Third Question: Are you at all embarrassed that you posted what you did without understanding the issues at hand? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pennsylvania-upholds-voter-id-law/631582.md?page=11) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pennsylvania-upholds-voter-id-law/631582.md?page=13)