# Pennsylvania Upholds Voter ID Law **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [August 15, 2012, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pennsylvania-upholds-voter-id-law/631582 "2012-08-15T17:21:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 13
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2012, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pennsylvania-upholds-voter-id-law/631582/241 "2012-08-17T23:23:57Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Either hearsay or heresy. Maybe both… > > And this just in… > > [http://www.philly.com/philly/blogs/cityhall/13-key-points-on-PA-Court-ruling-upholding-Voter-ID-law.html](http://www.philly.com/philly/blogs/cityhall/13-key-points-on-PA-Court-ruling-upholding-Voter-ID-law.html) > > **Pa. drops plans for 2 online initiatives to boost voting** > > Are these the plans that the judge took “at face value”, because the lawyers for the state said so? No. The judge was hearing a case about Voter ID. These are absentee voting and registration-related initiatives. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2012, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pennsylvania-upholds-voter-id-law/631582/242 "2012-08-17T23:24:29Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > …No, because **people who are disincentivzed to vote aren’t likely to file a court case**. That’s part of why your comment was absurd and likely in bad faith. So you’re saying you don’t have a winnable court case because the people who are actually affected refuse to file a court case? And you know who they are but you can’t convince them testify on their own behalf. Which still means that you still don’t have a provable case. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2012, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pennsylvania-upholds-voter-id-law/631582/243 "2012-08-17T23:24:58Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > Not best. Slightly better. 😃 > > For a man of your years, I am very impressed with how spry you are as you dodge from topic to topic. > > Good $2 word by the way. Hard to work into everyday conversation. I’m not sure how my strong devotion to a moral code, specifically that cheating and deceiving people is wrong, puts me in with the Antinomians. But I’m no theologist. Your moral code seems to be that your idea of what’s right is the only binding principle. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2012, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pennsylvania-upholds-voter-id-law/631582/244 "2012-08-17T23:26:18Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > So you’re saying you don’t have a winnable court case because the people who are actually affected refuse to file a court case? And you know who they are but you can’t convince them testify on their own behalf. > > Which still means that you still don’t have a provable case. That’s not what I’m saying. In fact, it’s fair to say, you really don’t understand the thrust of the thread at all. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2012, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pennsylvania-upholds-voter-id-law/631582/245 "2012-08-17T23:30:35Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Your moral code seems to be that your idea of what’s right is the only binding principle. No, my moral code is that honesty and democracy are foremost in importance. How about we talk about how you’re utterly losing this debate, instead of my moral beliefs? ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2012, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pennsylvania-upholds-voter-id-law/631582/246 "2012-08-17T23:43:56Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > Question: Are you aware of what the words _voter fraud_ mean? > > Second Question: Are you aware of what crimes they were convicted of? > > Third Question: Are you at all embarrassed that you posted what you did without understanding the issues at hand? 1. Forging signatures on absentee ballots is voter fraud. 2. Voter registration fraud would be considered voter registration fraud. Voter fraud would be considered voter fraud. Pleaded guilty would mean guilty as charged. 3. I understand that you must be sitting down because you don’t have a leg to stand on. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2012, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pennsylvania-upholds-voter-id-law/631582/247 "2012-08-17T23:52:30Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > No. The judge was hearing a case about Voter ID. These are absentee voting and registration-related initiatives. Oh? No bearing on the issue, then? > **[Pa. drops plans for 2 online initiatives to boost voting](https://www.inquirer.com/philly/news/politics/20120817_Pa__drops_plans_for_2_online_initiatives_to_boost_voting.html?nlid=4829276)** > > HARRISBURG - On the same day a judge cleared the way for the state's new voter identification law to take effect, the Corbett administration abandoned plans to allow voters to apply online for absentee ballots for the November election and to... > [@](#): > > …In his decision, Commonwealth Court Judge Robert E. Simpson Jr. noted that the law already allows for absentee ballots for those facing difficulty in getting to the polls. In referring to two of the plaintiffs in the lawsuit, he noted that “absentee balloting is probably available to them.”… Well, now, just a country boy, not sophisticated in these jurispetunial things, but it seems to me he is at least suggesting that the availability of absentee voting is one ameliorative factor, thereby weakening the Complaining Guys case, yes? And this… > [@](#): > > …He said he took at face value promises by state officials that they would get ID cards into the hands of the vast majority of residents who needed them by Election Day, that they would carry out a broad outreach campaign and that those with manifest difficulties would be able to vote through a provisional or _an absentee ballot_… (emphasis added) Seems to me it touches on the subject of absentee voting here, in that he explicitly discusses absentee voting, and discusses it relevant to his acceptance of the State’s contention that the problem will be minimized. And that these things _would_ be done, not _had_ been done, hence, we are allowed to accept that an ongoing effort is contemplated. We could be forgiven for assuming that this canceled program was one, if not all, of those efforts. (If you know of _other_ such efforts by the State of PA, do let us know. I’m a google-fu mofo, and I sure haven’t…) Is there some legal technicality I am ignorant of, whereby they say “absentee voting” but are really talking about “chinchilla testicles”? Advise. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2012, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pennsylvania-upholds-voter-id-law/631582/248 "2012-08-17T23:54:19Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > 1. Forging signatures on absentee ballots is voter fraud. Which, since you mention it, wasn’t done by ACORN. It was done by elected officials and party operatives. [http://www.timesunion.com/local/article/Vote-probe-arrests-include-councilmen-2414466.php](http://www.timesunion.com/local/article/Vote-probe-arrests-include-councilmen-2414466.php) > [@](#): > > 1. Voter registration fraud would be considered voter registration fraud. Voter fraud would be considered voter fraud. Pleaded guilty would mean guilty as charged. Where is the voter fraud again? You do know that the registration fraud was people scamming to get out of signing people up, right? You further know that no illegal votes happened, right? > [@](#): > > 1. I understand that you must be sitting down because you don’t have a leg to stand on. 😃 I do have a leg. But I think you’ll find that because of where it is, you’re the one that’ll have trouble sitting. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2012, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pennsylvania-upholds-voter-id-law/631582/249 "2012-08-18T00:10:42Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > No, my moral code is that honesty and democracy are foremost in importance. How about we talk about how you’re utterly losing this debate, instead of my moral beliefs? Losing? Laws are in place and judged legal and constitutional. That’s all I am debating. If you wish to debate how these laws would fare if your moral code were the law of the land, I decline, because it will be a short debate. You are the supreme authority when it comes to your moral code. Luckily for us all, that’s as far as your code’s authority extends. The rest of the country is governed by the rule of law. If you think there’s is some value in continuing to remind everyone that your ideas are not the news shared by the rest of the country,go right ahead. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2012, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pennsylvania-upholds-voter-id-law/631582/250 "2012-08-18T00:17:48Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Losing? > > Laws are in place and judged legal and constitutional. That’s all I am debating. If you wish to debate how these laws would fare if your moral code were the law of the land, I decline, because it will be a short debate. You are the supreme authority when it comes to your moral code. > > Luckily for us all, that’s as far as your code’s authority extends. The rest of the country is governed by the rule of law. If you think there’s is some value in continuing to remind everyone that your ideas are not the news shared by the rest of the country,go right ahead. You are doing a terrible job of understanding this thread. It may or may not be legal. I’m saying that it’s wrong. Just like I’d have said (assuming I was a similar person in the '60s) that the ban on interracial marriage was wrong. Or slavery. Or women not being able to vote. The laws are poor policy, and only a completely partisan person who has no regard for the democratic values we’re supposed to hold high as Americans can support a law that: Is designed to combat an imaginary problem. Makes it harder for millions of people across the country to vote. Creates lasting political advantage for one party. Reduces voter confidence by putting a barrier before people who want to vote. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2012, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pennsylvania-upholds-voter-id-law/631582/251 "2012-08-18T00:29:30Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > Which, since you mention it, wasn’t done by ACORN. It was done by elected officials and party operatives. > > Where is the voter fraud again? You do know that the registration fraud was people scamming to get out of signing people up, right? You further know that no illegal votes happened, right? > > I do have a leg. But I think you’ll find that because of where it is, you’re the one that’ll have trouble sitting. 😃 Well, ya got me there. It was Democrat party elected officials and their “operatives” who were found guilty of voter fraud in Troy. As far as your offer of role-play, I respectfully decline. There are just too many weirdo’s on the internet. Best of luck to you and your leg and your partner. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2012, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pennsylvania-upholds-voter-id-law/631582/252 "2012-08-18T00:32:22Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > You are doing a terrible job of understanding this thread. > > It may or may not be legal. I’m saying that it’s wrong. Got it. But since only a small minority of the public agrees with you, you’re out of luck. Sure, sure – slavery was wrong. And women not having the vote was wrong. But under our system, you cannot simply declare that a minority view should control because other wrongs once existed. If we could, then I’d like to declare that abortion is wrong. Sure, only a minority agrees with me – although a bigger minority than you have. So let’s shut down the abortion clinics, because after all slavery was wrong. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2012, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pennsylvania-upholds-voter-id-law/631582/253 "2012-08-18T00:38:33Z")
How nimbly you leap from non-equivalence to _non sequitar_, the Nureyev of bad analogy. ---
**Author:** ![davidm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidm/32/225_2.png) [@davidm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidm)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2012, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pennsylvania-upholds-voter-id-law/631582/254 "2012-08-18T00:42:48Z")
When someone’s argument is reduced to “the public disagrees with you, nya nya nya nya”, you know they’ve got nothing. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2012, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pennsylvania-upholds-voter-id-law/631582/255 "2012-08-18T00:59:44Z")
> [@davidm](#): > > When someone’s argument is reduced to “the public disagrees with you, nya nya nya nya”, you know they’ve got nothing. To the contrary. Why do you want to ensure that every votes? Isn’t it because, in this country, we hold to the idea that the sovereign powers rests ultimately with the people? “The public disagrees with you,” is in fact the clincher. It means the very people on whose behalf you are supposedly arguing have said, in effect, “We reject your idea.” I find it far scarier that you’re willing to discard our democratic republic’s rules when they reach a result you don’t like than I find any tiny inconvenience imposed in a tiny fraction of the voting public. We The People. Look it up. Learn it. Live it. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2012, 1:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pennsylvania-upholds-voter-id-law/631582/256 "2012-08-18T01:19:07Z")
Again? Again you spike the ball and do a victory boogie because you’ve proved that voter ID is popular with the public? Of course it is, nobody doubts it, its popular right here, popular amongst the people arguing with you! How many times I gotta say it, not crazy about such restrictions, but not that worked up about it, either. Its the perversion of that value to corrupt, partisan and cynical ends. We poll the people, ask them if its a good idea for more people to vote, you will likely get an equally positive result. Does that fact mean any program my lefty little mind can cook up is thereby justified? Think carefully, you only get one pick… He said yes! Unleash the ACORN Zombies! Even a very good idea can be perverted and warped. Conversely, sometimes a perverted and warped idea is a very good one! But I digress… ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2012, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pennsylvania-upholds-voter-id-law/631582/257 "2012-08-18T01:24:25Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Does that fact mean any program my lefty little mind can cook up is thereby justified? Think carefully, you only get one pick… No. But if your program itself gets the requisite support, then sure – go right ahead. It’s for this reason that I reluctantly and with heavy heart acknowledge current abortion policy is legitimate. I don’t like it, and wish it weren’t supported, but it is. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2012, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pennsylvania-upholds-voter-id-law/631582/258 "2012-08-18T02:06:26Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > No. But if your program itself gets the requisite support, then sure – go right ahead. It’s for this reason that I reluctantly and with heavy heart acknowledge current abortion policy is legitimate. I don’t like it, and wish it weren’t supported, but it is. Man, can’t nobody on this Earth evade a question like you can! My man **Bricker** is a question ducking mother…_Shut your mouth!_…but I’m talking about **Bricker**!?.._well, we can dig it_… You sure you weren’t a matador in your past life? A fairly successful one, even? I didn’t need basic instruction of the process of making laws. I’m talking about perverting a purpose to another end. And honest argument, while we’re about it. For you to claim that the popularity of voter ID _by itself_ justifies any purpose you might use it for is weak. We might subvert the legislature sufficiently to gain the upper hand. Shit happens. And we look at that poll showing how popular more voting is, and we say “Yowzah! Lets do a massive voter registration drive, door to door, everybody! And while we’re at it, we’ll record all the guns everybody’s got, and get GPS coordinates for the Black Helicopters!” And I’m arguing for that and I say “Hey! Got a poll right here, says more voting is very popular!” That’s stinky reasoning. So how about we let that be the tenth and final time you sling that one at us, OK? It bites. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2012, 7:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pennsylvania-upholds-voter-id-law/631582/259 "2012-08-18T07:52:03Z")
John Fund just wrote an interesting article about Republicans’ legitimate concerns about election manipulation in Pennsylvania: [http://www.nationalreview.com/articles/314273/voter-fraud-keystone-state-john-fund](http://www.nationalreview.com/articles/314273/voter-fraud-keystone-state-john-fund) Last month, City Commissioner Al Schmidt, a Republican, issued a 27-page report on irregularities he found in a sample of Philadelphia precincts during this year’s primary. The report, which looked at only 1 percent of the city’s 1,687 districts, found cases of double voting, voter impersonation, and voting by non-citizens, as well as 23 people who were not registered to vote but nonetheless voted. Schmidt also found reports of people who were counted as voting in the wrong party’s primary. ---
**Author:** ![gamerunknown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/6bbea6/32.png) [@gamerunknown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gamerunknown)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2012, 9:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pennsylvania-upholds-voter-id-law/631582/260 "2012-08-18T09:52:50Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Sure, only a minority agrees with me – although a bigger minority than you have. [Fox News reports](http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2012/04/18/fox-news-poll-most-think-voter-id-laws-are-necessary/) 70% of voters think voter ID is necessary, whereas 20% of people think [abortion should be illegal](http://www.gallup.com/poll/1576/abortion.aspx) under any circumstance. Schmidt apparently found 9 cases of [voter fraud](http://www.gallup.com/poll/1576/abortion.aspx). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pennsylvania-upholds-voter-id-law/631582.md?page=12) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pennsylvania-upholds-voter-id-law/631582.md?page=14)