# Pennsylvania Upholds Voter ID Law **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [August 15, 2012, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pennsylvania-upholds-voter-id-law/631582 "2012-08-15T17:21:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 15
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2012, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pennsylvania-upholds-voter-id-law/631582/281 "2012-08-18T16:29:37Z")
The case was so narrowly defined that all such evidence was irrelevant. Not about whether something was right or wrong, but legally permissible. ---
**Author:** ![davidm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidm/32/225_2.png) [@davidm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidm)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2012, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pennsylvania-upholds-voter-id-law/631582/282 "2012-08-18T16:47:12Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Not if it’s so laughably trivial as to invalidate your argument. It’s actually more credible to handwave it away than to present it. Exactly my point. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2012, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pennsylvania-upholds-voter-id-law/631582/283 "2012-08-18T16:50:31Z")
[http://www.nytimes.com/2012/08/16/opinion/a-missed-chance-to-reject-voting-barriers.html?\_r=1](http://www.nytimes.com/2012/08/16/opinion/a-missed-chance-to-reject-voting-barriers.html?_r=1) The _New York Times_ weighs in… > [@](#): > > …There is no evidence that Judge Simpson contorted law and precedent to reach his conclusion. He even described Mr. Turzai’s comment as “disturbing” and “tendentious.” But his ruling, in a case brought by potentially disenfranchised voters, is a clear and disturbing illustration of the way Republicans have manipulated legislation for their own ends, placing a veneer of civic responsibility on a low-minded and sleazy political ploy. > The real reasons for voter ID laws are quite clear. The desire to dampen the Democratic vote after 2006—and particularly in the wake of President Obama’s election—prompted six states to decide, virtually simultaneously, to pass voter ID laws… “…a low-minded and sleazy political ploy…” Just so. The quote above is but a sample of an excellent editorial analysis, brief, succinct, and pointed. Joe Bob ' **luc** says “Check it out!” ---
**Author:** ![davidm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidm/32/225_2.png) [@davidm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidm)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2012, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pennsylvania-upholds-voter-id-law/631582/284 "2012-08-18T16:53:34Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > The case was so narrowly defined that all such evidence was irrelevant. Not about whether something was right or wrong, but legally permissible. But doesn’t PA’s constitutionally guaranteed right to vote enter into the legality question? Don’t they have to show that any suppression of voting is outweighed by the supposed fraud crisis? Don’t they have to show that this law overall increases the legitimacy of elections? I’m not a lawyer so I don’t know for sure, but if it isn’t the case then the whole guarantee is meaningless isn’t it? Surely the authors didn’t intend it as a meaningless clause that could be ignored at the whim of the legislature? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2012, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pennsylvania-upholds-voter-id-law/631582/285 "2012-08-18T19:19:42Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Of course the majority isn’t always wrong but when you have a law that addresses a virtually non-existant problem and in the process disenfranchises a lot of people by erecting barriers to the polls, then you can say it is wrong whether it is a minority view or not. > > It is one of the duties of the judiciary, to overturn the popular will of the people when they are wrong. A duty that at least one Pennsylvania judge has failed. And the Supreme Court in Crawford v Marion County? See, the problem is your ilk keep asserting they’re right, and the other side is wrong. But we have a system in this country. It doesn’t depend on one judge. And when all the judicial courts at all the appellate levels disagree with you, it’s time to admit that maybe you are the one that’s wrong. ---
**Author:** ![davidm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidm/32/225_2.png) [@davidm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidm)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2012, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pennsylvania-upholds-voter-id-law/631582/286 "2012-08-18T19:24:57Z")
“Ilk”? Now we’re throwing around words like “ilk”? Things just got serious folks. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2012, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pennsylvania-upholds-voter-id-law/631582/287 "2012-08-18T20:13:33Z")
Got ilk? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2012, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pennsylvania-upholds-voter-id-law/631582/288 "2012-08-18T20:32:38Z")
> [@davidm](#): > > But doesn’t PA’s constitutionally guaranteed right to vote enter into the legality question? Don’t they have to show that any suppression of voting is outweighed by the supposed fraud crisis? … As **Judge Parker** pointed out above, the judge followed a strategy (if that’s the right word) on the legalism of credibility, he was empowered to make decisions based on his own assumptions about what was reasonable, and didn’t need to ask for evidence if he chose not to. He might, if he were so moved, make his decision based entirely on a witnesse’s “demeanor”. Maybe he would be pressing his luck, but he could do it. Also, the case was deliberately (IMHO) narrowed to only consider disenfranchisement, as the judge dismissed any minor inconveniences as unimportant. You read what the guy said, you could swear it was **Bricker** talking. Same phrases, same, ah, reasoning. Now, TG, IANAL, but still, the degree of abject adoration the judge offered the Republican side of this debate sets one back a step. Especially, as I may have mentioned, that part about taking the State’s promises “at face value”. What, did they offer him a blow job from Ann Coulter? Or threaten, as the case may be… ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2012, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pennsylvania-upholds-voter-id-law/631582/289 "2012-08-18T20:46:03Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > You read what the guy said, you could swear it was **Bricker** talking. Same phrases, same, ah, reasoning. Well, I said I \*used to be \*a defense attorney. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2012, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pennsylvania-upholds-voter-id-law/631582/290 "2012-08-18T21:04:08Z")
Did you ever badger a witness into a tearful confession of the crime? I always liked that part. Hamilton Burger was a Republican. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2012, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pennsylvania-upholds-voter-id-law/631582/291 "2012-08-19T00:00:42Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > The reason we can’t find Nessie is because Nessie does not exist. Same for Bigfoot. And why would we believe that the only reason we cannot find it is because only Republicans look for it? Because they did look for it, hooo doggies, did they ever look for it! > > But why not simply tell us what you believe? Cut you a temporary pass, you don’t have to prove it, just tell us what you believe. How much voter fraud runs rampant through our nation? To what effect? I believe there is enough voter fraud, intentional or not(some people vote when they are ineligible without knowing it), to swing a race when there’s a margin of 1000 or less. I believe Dino Rossi got robbed in Washington, and Norm Coleman got robbed in Minnesota. No, it’s not a big problem and I wouldn’t favor extreme solutions to solve it(like notarizing absentee ballots), but common sense solutions that do not pose an onerous burden should be considered. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2012, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pennsylvania-upholds-voter-id-law/631582/292 "2012-08-19T00:03:43Z")
> [@davidm](#): > > But doesn’t PA’s constitutionally guaranteed right to vote enter into the legality question? Don’t they have to show that any suppression of voting is outweighed by the supposed fraud crisis? Don’t they have to show that this law overall increases the legitimacy of elections? I’m not a lawyer so I don’t know for sure, but if it isn’t the case then the whole guarantee is meaningless isn’t it? Surely the authors didn’t intend it as a meaningless clause that could be ignored at the whim of the legislature? There isn’t a right to vote in Pennsylvania’s constitution. Just a passage about qualified electors and reasonable regulations on what constitutes a qualified elector. If I missed something, by all means let me know. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2012, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pennsylvania-upholds-voter-id-law/631582/293 "2012-08-19T00:13:36Z")
Well, you told us essentially nothing, there are so many provisos in that statement that it boils down to mush. You don’t favor “extreme solutions”? Well, good, but is what we are seeing here such a solution? Or no? And just how onerous does a burden need to be? How is any burden justifiable, if that burden falls unevenly? Or worse, falls selectively on those people that they prefer didn’t vote? And Norm Coleman lost a very, very close race, but he was not robbed. And your inclusion here insinuates but coyly doesn’t state that you think illegal voting had something to do with it. (John Cleese as barrister) I put it to you, sir, that Norm Coleman loss had nothing whatever to do with the issue at hand. Norm Coleman lost because he is the only person on Earth that Garrison Keillor actually hates. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2012, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pennsylvania-upholds-voter-id-law/631582/294 "2012-08-19T00:18:07Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > There isn’t a right to vote in Pennsylvania’s constitution. Just a passage about qualified electors and reasonable regulations on what constitutes a qualified elector… There is a right to vote in our national Constitution, sir! Further, there is right to vote n every stitch in the fabric of our flag, in every inch of ground oer which our forefathers bled for Liberty! From the shining mountain majesties and the amber wavy grains…hey, quit that! Stop shoving! That’s uncool, man, really uncool… ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2012, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pennsylvania-upholds-voter-id-law/631582/295 "2012-08-19T00:20:11Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Well, you told us essentially nothing, there are so many provisos in that statement that it boils down to mush. You don’t favor “extreme solutions”? Well, good, but is what we are seeing here such a solution? Or no? And just how onerous does a burden need to be? How is any burden justifiable, if that burden falls unevenly? Or worse, falls selectively on those people that they prefer didn’t vote? > > And Norm Coleman lost a very, very close race, but he was not robbed. And your inclusion here insinuates but coyly doesn’t state that you think illegal voting had something to do with it. > > (John Cleese as barrister) I put it to you, sir, that Norm Coleman loss had nothing whatever to do with the issue at hand. Norm Coleman lost because he is the only person on Earth that Garrison Keillor actually hates. If you’ve got enough anecdotal evidence of fraud, it might be a good idea to make a thorough attempt to get hard data. No such attempt has been made. The first sorta attempt was when Minnesota Majority referred 2000 names for investigation and the end result was over 100 convictions. And that’s only because when Minnesota gets tips they have to investigate. Which I’m sure is a law that will be targeted for repeal by voting rights activists. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2012, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pennsylvania-upholds-voter-id-law/631582/296 "2012-08-19T00:21:26Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > There is a right to vote in our national Constitution, sir! Further, there is right to vote n every stitch in the fabric of our flag, in every inch of ground oer which our forefathers bled for Liberty! From the shining mountain majesties and the amber wavy grains…hey, quit that! Stop shoving! That’s uncool, man, really uncool… There is a right to not be discriminated against on the basis of race or sex. There are still qualifications to be a voter, unlike actual rights, which are universal and apply even if one is not a citizen. To the extent there is a right to vote, it’s equivalent to the right to bear arms: subject to reasonable regulation. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2012, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pennsylvania-upholds-voter-id-law/631582/297 "2012-08-19T00:32:49Z")
If you take the time to google them, you will find that their claims are rather more in doubt than you seem to think. Just for an instance: > **[Bodenwischer - Tests, Infos & Tipps zu Bodenwischer](https://bodenwischer-tests.de)** > > Der eigene Bodenwischer ist der wichtigste Begleiter im täglichen Haushalt. Ob für Parkett, Fliesen oder Laminat: Qualität, Ausstattung und Preis spielen bei der Kaufentscheidung eine große Rolle. Auf dieser Seite findest du ausführliche... **County attorneys: Minnesota Majority reports on voter fraud ‘frivolous’** > [@](#): > > The Minnesota County Attorneys Association’s (MCAA) executive director John Kingrey says Minnesota Majority’s reports of massive voter fraud in the 2008 election were “widely overstated” and “frivolous,” adding that the conservative group’s demands of those investigating suspected voter fraud were draining county public safety resources… Further details are at the site, suffice to say you will find scant ammunition… ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2012, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pennsylvania-upholds-voter-id-law/631582/298 "2012-08-19T00:36:14Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > There is a right to vote in our national Constitution, sir! . For who? Not for president. Presidential electors are selected by each state, in such manner as the legislators may direct. No rule requires that a state let its citizens vote for President. > [@SCOTUS](#): > > The individual citizen has no federal constitutional right to vote for electors for the President of the United States unless and until the state legislature chooses a statewide election as the means to implement its power to appoint members of the Electoral College. U.S. Const., Art. II, §1. This is the source for the statement in McPherson v. Blacker, 146 U.S. 1, 35 (1892), that the State legislature’s power to select the manner for appointing electors is plenary; it may, if it so chooses, select the electors itself, which indeed was the manner used by State legislatures in several States for many years after the Framing of our Constitution. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2012, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pennsylvania-upholds-voter-id-law/631582/299 "2012-08-19T00:41:18Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > If you take the time to google them, you will find that their claims are rather more in doubt than you seem to think. Just for an instance: > > [Bodenwischer - Tests, Infos & Tipps zu Bodenwischer](http://minnesotaindependent.com/74516/county-attorneys-say-minnesota-majority-reports-on-voter-fraud-frivolous) > > **County attorneys: Minnesota Majority reports on voter fraud ‘frivolous’** > > Further details are at the site, suffice to say you will find scant ammunition… I’ve seen just about every cite on this case, and they all say it’s crap, while gliding over the fact that there were actual convictions, and not just a handful. And the only way to get a conviction is to prove that an ineligible voter voted knowing they were ineligible. That’s not easy. Which means that the 100+ convictions were the tip of the iceberg. And I love the complaint “draining county resources”. Sounds more like sour grapes that the counties spent resources and actually found voter fraud. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2012, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pennsylvania-upholds-voter-id-law/631582/300 "2012-08-19T00:43:14Z")
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