# Pennsylvania Upholds Voter ID Law **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [August 15, 2012, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pennsylvania-upholds-voter-id-law/631582 "2012-08-15T17:21:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 22
**Author:** ![mozchron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c2a13f/32.png) [@mozchron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mozchron)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2012, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pennsylvania-upholds-voter-id-law/631582/421 "2012-08-29T23:40:38Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Right, but this data point supports my idea that no state’s DMV will not accept cash. I’m not comfortable listing my location, but my interest was piqued enough to check. [Pennsylvania DMV doesn’t accept cash or credit either - only check or money order.](http://www.dmv.state.pa.us/fees/index.shtml) [QUOTE=Pennsylvania DMV] Please note that PennDOT’s Driver License Centers only take checks or money orders. **No cash or credit cards are accepted at these locations**. [/QUOTE] I’d say that has specific relevance to this thread. ---
**Author:** ![grude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47774/32.png) [@grude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grude)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2012, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pennsylvania-upholds-voter-id-law/631582/422 "2012-08-29T23:53:07Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > To them I say, “Sucks to be someone who feels hindered and harassed by perfectly reasonable requirements.” > > . :smack: ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2012, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pennsylvania-upholds-voter-id-law/631582/423 "2012-08-29T23:58:05Z")
> [@mozchron](#): > > I’m not comfortable listing my location, but my interest was piqued enough to check. > > [Pennsylvania DMV doesn’t accept cash or credit either - only check or money order.](http://www.dmv.state.pa.us/fees/index.shtml) > > I’d say that has specific relevance to this thread. Well… No, I was just curious. The Voter ID card is free, so if you need it, you don’t need cash or a check. But that’s kind of irritating for an agency in 2012 to insist on a paper check of some kind, and refuse cash. But not relevant for voting. ---
**Author:** ![gamerunknown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/6bbea6/32.png) [@gamerunknown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gamerunknown)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2012, 10:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pennsylvania-upholds-voter-id-law/631582/424 "2012-08-30T10:25:52Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > The Voter ID card is free, so if you need it, you don’t need cash or a check. What ID is necessary to receive a voter ID card? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2012, 1:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pennsylvania-upholds-voter-id-law/631582/425 "2012-08-30T13:19:53Z")
> [@gamerunknown](#): > > What ID is necessary to receive a voter ID card? Well, if you’re already registered to vote, [just supply a couple of utility bills as proof of residence, and sign a document that says you don’t have any other valid ID:](http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/penndot-issuing-free-department-of-state-voter-id-cards-at-driver-licensing-centers-167562225.html) > [@](#): > > Residents who want the new Department of State Voter ID will need to provide their name, address, Social Security number, proof of residency and previous name and/or address if changed in the past 12 months. The applicant must complete a Department of State ID application form and sign a document affirming that they are a registered voter but have no other form of identification that can be used for voting. Staff at the Driver License Center will contact the Department of State to confirm that the person is registered to vote. Once verified, the person will receive the free Department of State Voter ID, which is valid for 10 years. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2012, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pennsylvania-upholds-voter-id-law/631582/426 "2012-08-30T13:43:26Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Well, TG, IANAL, but seems to me they would like an insight into the thinking that went into the making of this law. Did they investigate in any way, seek data and information about the impact these laws might have? Did it never occur to them that these laws might disproportionately affect a segment of the population? Did it occur to them that this segment might be somewhat predictable in terms of voting? Did they discuss that as they drafted their documents, were amendments made relative to this sort of a question? > > By what process did they arrive at the finished product, what motivations are revealed as the work progresses. Is there some reason that needs to be kept secret? A _legitimate_ reason? > > Can’t see that the ethical concern here is weighty. Think a butterfly could swoop down, snatch it up and carry it away… The first problem is that I can turn right around and make your exact same argument about the law that allows any person in the US to register without any proof of citizenship simply by saying, “Yes I’m a citizen.” which is an issue the Secretary of State here in Colorado is dealing with after some illegal aliens asked to be taken off the voter roles.\* Any voter eligibility law, whether for registering or voting is going to affect someone but that doesn’t mean that it is intentional or even is effective to disenfranchise or illegally enfranchise a population group. \*If your are caught being registered to vote, you are “falsely claiming” to be a citizen and will never get a visa or be naturalized. Many of the legal foreign nationals that admit they were registered to vote in the state were registered under motor voter laws. They hope that by asking to be taken off the rolls, it will be seen as an honest mistake. The second problem with your argument is one that I am honestly getting tired of pointing out and having ignored. Your side claims that people will be disenfranchised because they will be unable to meet the standard of ID required? How many? Take PA alone. Is it 1 or 10 or 100 or 1,000,000? You don’t know and so there are these nebulous claims of disenfranchisement that cannot be backed up with any data. Plus you have the added difficulty that a lot of the ID needed to vote is what proves residency/address when registering to vote so that you are now trying to convince me that these people can show they are residents of PA and their address (for voting preceints etc.) to register but not do not have that same documentation on voting day. I can’t buy that. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2012, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pennsylvania-upholds-voter-id-law/631582/427 "2012-08-30T14:41:56Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > I can’t buy that. Very few people can, which is why the Left is so frustrated at the lack of public support for their complaints. ---
**Author:** ![mozchron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c2a13f/32.png) [@mozchron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mozchron)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2012, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pennsylvania-upholds-voter-id-law/631582/428 "2012-08-30T15:09:08Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Well, if you’re already registered to vote, [just supply a couple of utility bills as proof of residence, and sign a document that says you don’t have any other valid ID:](http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/penndot-issuing-free-department-of-state-voter-id-cards-at-driver-licensing-centers-167562225.html) Bricker, serious question. In your opinion, if you don’t have to supply valid ID to get a voter ID card, what exactly is the point of this? ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2012, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pennsylvania-upholds-voter-id-law/631582/429 "2012-08-30T16:51:13Z")
> [@mozchron](#): > > Bricker, serious question. In your opinion, if you don’t have to supply valid ID to get a voter ID card, what exactly is the point of this? Haven’t you been listening? It keeps Democrats from voti… wait, sorry, I mean it protects _voter confidence_. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2012, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pennsylvania-upholds-voter-id-law/631582/430 "2012-08-30T16:57:36Z")
> [@mozchron](#): > > Bricker, serious question. In your opinion, if you don’t have to supply valid ID to get a voter ID card, what exactly is the point of this? The point is simply to reliably identify the voter going forward. It means that if that voter is a non-citizen, he will be much less likely to risk voting, since now he can be prosecuted. A non-citizen who votes without a Voter ID infrastructure in place has only to deny it was him, and prosecution becomes difficult or impossible. So, too, a felon in states which don’t permit felons to vote. So, too, persons voting in two different places. When we can reliably identify the voter and prove (strongly enough to sustain a conviction) then we have greater confidence that the only persons casting votes on Election Day are those persons legally permitted to do so. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2012, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pennsylvania-upholds-voter-id-law/631582/431 "2012-08-30T17:11:16Z")
[Confident, ain’tcha?](http://www.boston.com/news/nation/2012/08/30/federal-court-rejects-texas-voter-law/hCoSWWZGYQagZnxcLdgATN/story.html) > [@](#): > > A three-judge panel in Washington ruled Thursday that the law imposes ‘‘strict, unforgiving burdens on the poor’’ and noted that racial minorities in Texas are more likely to live in poverty. > … > The ruling comes in the same week that South Carolina’s strict photo ID law is on trial in front of another three-judge panel in the same federal courthouse. > [@Bricker](#): > > if that voter is a non-citizen, he will be much less likely to risk voting What could be less likely than never? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2012, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pennsylvania-upholds-voter-id-law/631582/432 "2012-08-30T18:20:02Z")
With an application of sincerity and patience, all of these problems could be fixed. An “outreach” program. A state-sponsored voter registration drive, or at least a state-approved drive conducted by reliable third parties (i.e. The League of Women Voters). We could make getting photo id as easy as falling off a log, if we chose to do so. And I would whole-heartedly support such an effort. But not because it would stem the white Republican hysteria about voter fraud, as it will only reassure those who are inclined to be rational. Because it will register more voters. It will include more people who are inclined to think of themselves as second-class citizens, it will underline and reassure that they are part of things, they matter, they count. As a further benefit, it may be useful for people who currently lack such ID as needed to conduct the sorts of business that the rest of us take for granted. It has not escaped my notice that such an effort would almost certainly result in a higher number of Democrat voters. If that shall come to pass, how will I react? [QUOTE=Bricker] … I will take it with my usual aplomb. [/QUOTE] ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2012, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pennsylvania-upholds-voter-id-law/631582/433 "2012-08-30T18:22:47Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > The point is simply to reliably identify the voter going forward. It means that if that voter is a non-citizen, he will be much less likely to risk voting, since now he can be prosecuted. A non-citizen who votes without a Voter ID infrastructure in place has only to deny it was him, and prosecution becomes difficult or impossible. > > So, too, a felon in states which don’t permit felons to vote. So, too, persons voting in two different places. > > When we can reliably identify the voter and prove (strongly enough to sustain a conviction) then we have greater confidence that the only persons casting votes on Election Day are those persons legally permitted to do so. Okay, so you’re all about maintaining the integrity of the system, right? So how would you feel about having the state (or locality, etc.) take photos of every person who votes and have them matched to who they said they were when they voted? It seems to me that such a system would not only offer a clear record of the likeness of who voted as whom, making prosecution for any occurrence of alleged voter fraud ridiculously easy, but it would also put the expense on the system, rather than on the individual voter. **Bricker** , would you support such a system? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2012, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pennsylvania-upholds-voter-id-law/631582/434 "2012-08-30T18:28:39Z")
Not good enough. Disguises. Plastic surgery. The illegal aliens who are already swamping our voter rolls are clever. So clever, they have not been caught, even as they march in their thousands to our polls! Wake up, America! Connect the dot! ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2012, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pennsylvania-upholds-voter-id-law/631582/435 "2012-08-30T18:44:41Z")
Well, I’m trying to dot all the T’s and cross all the eyes or something here. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2012, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pennsylvania-upholds-voter-id-law/631582/436 "2012-08-30T18:50:43Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > Okay, so you’re all about maintaining the integrity of the system, right? > > So how would you feel about having the state (or locality, etc.) take photos of every person who votes and have them matched to who they said they were when they voted? > > It seems to me that such a system would not only offer a clear record of the likeness of who voted as whom, making prosecution for any occurrence of alleged voter fraud ridiculously easy, but it would also put the expense on the system, rather than on the individual voter. > > **Bricker** , would you support such a system? Sure. I might have practical concerns, though, like the expense of photo equipment and the means to store and index the photos, but I’d also support a less-expensive alternative: thumbprints. Take a thumbprint from each voter as he checks in. Right now, we have big paper books of voter names; leave room next to each name for a thumb print. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2012, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pennsylvania-upholds-voter-id-law/631582/437 "2012-08-30T18:52:10Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Not good enough. Disguises. Plastic surgery. The illegal aliens who are already swamping our voter rolls are clever. So clever, they have not been caught, even as they march in their thousands to our polls! Wake up, America! Connect the dot! You know that I have always acknowledged the cases of illegal votes are likely small, tens or hundreds at most in most cases. How do YOU feel about the photo plan, or the fingerprint plan? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2012, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pennsylvania-upholds-voter-id-law/631582/438 "2012-08-30T18:56:11Z")
Darn shame this didn’t occur to your fellow Republicans. Which forced them to go down this road, forced them to take measures that would restrict and hinder Democrat voters. Boy, isn’t that just too bad! I mean, if they had thought of this, they wouldn’t be compelled to damage the voting privileges of the poor and minorities! So, where were you when they needed you? You could have been their hero, bolster voter confidence without resorting to sordid partisan trickery! ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2012, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pennsylvania-upholds-voter-id-law/631582/439 "2012-08-30T18:58:47Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > You know that I have always acknowledged the cases of illegal votes are likely small, tens or hundreds at most in most cases. > > How do YOU feel about the photo plan, or the fingerprint plan? Cool as a moose. Do an outreach, a voter drive, make it easy and convenient for the least of us…my wholehearted support. And aplomb. Simply \*oodles! \*of aplomb. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2012, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pennsylvania-upholds-voter-id-law/631582/440 "2012-08-30T19:06:40Z")
From the decision regarding Texas’ voter id laws… > [@](#): > > …Nothing in this opinion remotely suggests that section 5 bars all covered jurisdictions from implementing photo ID laws… Uh oh… > [@](#): > > … To the contrary, under our reasoning today, such laws might well be precleared if they ensure (1) that all prospective voters can easily obtain free photo ID, and (2) that any underlying documents required to obtain that ID are truly free of charge. That will do nicely. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pennsylvania-upholds-voter-id-law/631582.md?page=21) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pennsylvania-upholds-voter-id-law/631582.md?page=23)