# Pennsylvania Upholds Voter ID Law **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [August 15, 2012, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pennsylvania-upholds-voter-id-law/631582 "2012-08-15T17:21:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 27
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2012, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pennsylvania-upholds-voter-id-law/631582/521 "2012-10-02T19:30:36Z")
It may very well dissuade illegal voters, much the same way that my dog protects me from being sexually assaulted by Bigfoot. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2012, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pennsylvania-upholds-voter-id-law/631582/522 "2012-10-02T19:31:38Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > It may very well dissuade illegal voters, much the same way that my dog protects me from being sexually assaulted by Bigfoot. You don’t come here for the hunting, do you? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2012, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pennsylvania-upholds-voter-id-law/631582/523 "2012-10-02T22:46:15Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > He meant I was wrong. I hadn’t read the decision; I was reacting to posts describing the outcome in the Pit thread. > > It looks like the voter may be asked for ID but, even if he doesn’t have it, he will be permitted to cast an ordinary ballot. That isn’t a good outcome. > > It’s not horrendous – even asking for ID is a good first step, since it makes it more memorable for someone to not have ID and still vote and will hopefully dissuade at least some illegal voters. But it’s not the outcome I thought we had, nor is it (obviously) the one I wanted. Thats fair, you were reacting to preliminary reports like the rest of us. But to be fair, they have been asking me for ID at elections for decades. Its nothing new here. What is new is the “you can’t vote unless you show me ID” ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2012, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pennsylvania-upholds-voter-id-law/631582/524 "2012-10-02T23:30:31Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > “Hopefully dissuade some illegal voters”? Given the vanishing rarity of illegal voters who cast their illegal ballots by showing up at the polling station impersonating someone else, how many do you expect to be dissuaded? It’s really unlikely there would be a single illegal vote cast in this manner in Pennsylvania this year; there aren’t any such voters to dissuade, most likely. > > No, people who want to vote illegally will do the safe thing and cast an absentee ballot. Given the complete lack of any measuring or effective enforcement mechanism, how can you say this with such surety? Studies quoted upthread suggest 0.004% of votes are illegal. Why do you imagine that Pennsylvania is immune? ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2012, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pennsylvania-upholds-voter-id-law/631582/525 "2012-10-02T23:46:48Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Given the complete lack of any measuring or effective enforcement mechanism, how can you say this with such surety? > > Studies quoted upthread suggest 0.004% of votes are illegal. Why do you imagine that Pennsylvania is immune? Wow! 0.004%?! Are you sure you’re not parodying yourself? ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2012, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pennsylvania-upholds-voter-id-law/631582/526 "2012-10-02T23:49:48Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Studies quoted upthread suggest 0.004% of votes are illegal. Why do you imagine that Pennsylvania is immune? Are you thinking of a different thread? Can you re-post the study? ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2012, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pennsylvania-upholds-voter-id-law/631582/527 "2012-10-02T23:56:27Z")
Googling for .004% illegal voter comes up with this: [http://www.startribune.com/printarticle/?id=171009711](http://www.startribune.com/printarticle/?id=171009711) > [@](#): > > COLORADO > > Last year, Gessler estimated that 11,805 noncitizens were on the rolls. > > But the number kept getting smaller. > > After his office sent letters to 3,903 registered voters questioning their status, the number of noncitizens now stands at 141, based on checks using a federal immigration database. Of those 141, Gessler said 35 have voted in the past. The 141 are .004 percent of the state’s nearly 3.5 million voters. > > Even those numbers could be fewer. > > The Denver clerk and recorder’s office, which had records on eight of the 35 voters who cast ballots in the past, did its own verification and found that those eight people appear to be citizens. > > Kevin Biln, an Adams County resident on the list, said he didn’t know he was registered and maintains that he’s never voted. Another voter on the list, Erica Zelfand, a Canadian immigrant, said she’s a U.S. citizen no longer living in Colorado. Robert Giron said he was furious that the 20-year-old daughter he adopted from Mexico was listed as having illegally voted. He said she went to the Denver clerk’s office with her U.S. passport and other documents to prove her eligibility to vote. > > To Pam Anderson, the clerk and recorder in Jefferson County in suburban Denver, the investigation proves what’s already been her experience: Cases of noncitizens on the rolls are extremely rare. > > Anderson said the fighting between the political parties over the perception of voter fraud also has less tangible consequences. Was that the intended citation? ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2012, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pennsylvania-upholds-voter-id-law/631582/528 "2012-10-03T00:14:35Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Given the complete lack of any measuring or effective enforcement mechanism, how can you say this with such surety? > > Studies quoted upthread suggest 0.004% of votes are illegal. Why do you imagine that Pennsylvania is immune? I said exactly what I meant. Let me say it again with underlining: Given the vanishing rarity of illegal voters who cast their illegal ballots by showing up at the polling station impersonating someone else, how many do you expect to be dissuaded? Thing is, this is very risky behavior. If you claim you’re Fitz G. Scottgerald when you show up to vote, and one of the pollworkers goes to church with Fitz, you’re going to prison. If Fitz comes later to vote and finds a vote already cast in his name, there’s going to be an investigation. If Fitz is dead, or has moved, Republican operatives are sure to turn up the illegal vote. There’s a significant risk of prison for a vanishingly low return. Especially compared to other techniques: purchasing votes, for example, or filling out the absentee ballots of the very elderly, or stealing absentee ballots, or suppressing voter turnout (each of your opponents’ votes suppressed is mathematically equivalent to an extra vote for you), or just making up a fake name for an absentee ballot. And there’s not 0.004% of votes cast in this manner, as has already been pointed out. The numbers are actually, and lemme break out some Excel so I don’t mess this up, [0.000006667%](http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/election-day-impersonation-an-impetus-for-voter-id-laws-a-rarity-data-show/2012/08/11/7002911e-df20-11e1-a19c-fcfa365396c8_story.html): one per fifteen million registered voters per ten years. Pennsylvania’s population is a little less than thirteen million total. A little less than three million of those are over the age of 18. If every Pennsylvanian over the age of 18 is a registered voter, you’d expect about one confirmed case of in-person voter impersonation fraud every fifty years. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2012, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pennsylvania-upholds-voter-id-law/631582/529 "2012-10-03T00:58:23Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > You don’t come here for the hunting, do you? You can be _such_ a little bitch, sometimes… ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2012, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pennsylvania-upholds-voter-id-law/631582/530 "2012-10-03T01:00:05Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > I said exactly what I meant. Let me say it again with underlining: > > Given the vanishing rarity of illegal voters who cast their illegal ballots by showing up at the polling station impersonating someone else, how many do you expect to be dissuaded? Got it – thanks for the correction. I’m not so worried about Jim impersonating Joe. I’m worried about Sven, a non-citizen, registering and voting. I’m worried about Bob “The Snake,” a convicted felon, registering and voting. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2012, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pennsylvania-upholds-voter-id-law/631582/531 "2012-10-03T01:09:36Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > If every Pennsylvanian over the age of 18 is a registered voter, you’d expect about one confirmed case of in-person voter impersonation fraud every fifty years. Well, clearly (for some), finding and eliminating that one in fifteen million is well worth it. Even if it means disenfranchising thousands, or even tens of thousands of voters, then it’s a price that some are willing to pay. Especially if most of those disenfranchised voters were probably going to vote for the other team anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2012, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pennsylvania-upholds-voter-id-law/631582/532 "2012-10-03T01:37:06Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I’m not so worried about Jim impersonating Joe. > > I’m worried about Sven, a non-citizen, registering and voting. > > I’m worried about Bob “The Snake,” a convicted felon, registering and voting. How would IDs prevent either of these occurrences, if Sven and Bob don’t impersonate someone else? ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2012, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pennsylvania-upholds-voter-id-law/631582/533 "2012-10-03T01:54:26Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > . . . I’m not so worried about Jim impersonating Joe. > > I’m worried about Sven, a non-citizen, registering and voting. > > I’m worried about Bob “The Snake,” a convicted felon, registering and voting. Or some goofy college kid registering to vote both in the city where he’s going to school, and back at home at his mother’s address. I know a goofy college kid who did exactly that. He got caught, and, because it was his first criminal offense, got a $100 fine plus $100 hours of community service. (No, it wasn’t me!) Making it impossible for thousands of people to vote seems heavily disproportionate. That kind of cure is worse than the disease. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2012, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pennsylvania-upholds-voter-id-law/631582/534 "2012-10-03T02:05:20Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > Or some goofy college kid registering to vote both in the city where he’s going to school, and back at home at his mother’s address. > > I know a goofy college kid who did exactly that. > > He got caught, and, because it was his first criminal offense, got a $100 fine plus $100 hours of community service. (No, it wasn’t me!) > > Making it impossible for thousands of people to vote seems heavily disproportionate. That kind of cure is worse than the disease. Especially since it doesn’t, y’know, **cure the disease**. Requiring an ID doesn’t prevent the kind of illegal voting that we know occurs, except once a year in the entire nation, probably not in Pennsylvania. ---
**Author:** ![Zakalwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zakalwe/32/270_2.png) [@Zakalwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zakalwe)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2012, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pennsylvania-upholds-voter-id-law/631582/535 "2012-10-03T02:09:23Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > Or some goofy college kid registering to vote both in the city where he’s going to school, and back at home at his mother’s address. I personally know a staunch Republican snowbird who proudly claims to have voted twice (in Connecticut and in Florida) for the past 20 years! His illegal votes alone outweigh 500 years worth of Bricker’s all-consuming worry about felons and illegals, but Bricker doesn’t care that my acquaintance votes illegally after all, my acquaintance votes “correctly”. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2012, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pennsylvania-upholds-voter-id-law/631582/536 "2012-10-03T02:17:36Z")
Yes, absentee snowbird ballots, are often “correct” ones. That’s primarily why the (Republican) government in Florida is not too keen on cracking down on this kind of fraud. If it gives Republicans votes, [then it is not to be touched](http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2012/09/26/absentee-ballot-fraud-widespread-problem-among-many-boleteros-in-florida/#ixzz28CMKrQci); > [@](#): > > For example, Boleteros – translated roughly to mean ticket-person – assist in collecting absentee ballots and helping primarily elderly and disabled voters in filling them out. This can be entirely lawful, but sometimes these workers walk a fine legal line. > > For many boleteros, it can be a profitable enterprise – with some guaranteeing votes in exchange for money, authorities say. **They are particularly prominent in heavily Republican Spanish-speaking communities,** like Hialeah. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2012, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pennsylvania-upholds-voter-id-law/631582/537 "2012-10-03T02:25:27Z")
> [@Zakalwe](#): > > I personally know a staunch Republican snowbird who proudly claims to have voted twice (in Connecticut and in Florida) for the past 20 years! His illegal votes alone outweigh 500 years worth of Bricker’s all-consuming worry about felons and illegals, but Bricker doesn’t care that my acquaintance votes illegally after all, my acquaintance votes “correctly”. That’s not fair. Nothing Bricker has said suggests he doesn’t care about your acquaintance. I guess I would ask a question, though: Bricker, does it make sense to gear public resources toward different kinds of fraud in proportion to the amounts of fraud that occur? And can we include “inconvenience toward voters” as a kind of public resource? For example, we [have decent evidence that absentee ballot fraud occurs](http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/09/05/2985138/lawmakers-suit-alleges-absentee.html), and it’s very easy to see how it’d be a more attractive form of fraud for criminals (the corrupt politician could see proof of the efforts, it can be done over several days, the fraud is subtler and therefore has less risk of exposure, etc.). Shouldn’t we be putting our efforts toward combating this kind of fraud and get the stuff we know is occurring taken care of before we turn the virtually nonexistent kind into a federal case? ---
**Author:** ![China\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/779978/32.png) [@China\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/China_Guy)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2012, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pennsylvania-upholds-voter-id-law/631582/538 "2012-10-03T02:43:13Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I’m worried about Bob “The Snake,” a convicted felon, registering and voting. But Bob “The Snake” is a legal voter while in prison in Vermont and Maine, and only 9 states permanently restrict felons from ever voting. Doesn’t it make more sense to have a national voter ID that solves the problem of fake in person voting once and for all? I mean if that’s the point of all these “anti-fraud” actions instead of a blatant attempt to disenfranchise voters that skew towards a different party??? ---
**Author:** ![Zakalwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zakalwe/32/270_2.png) [@Zakalwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zakalwe)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2012, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pennsylvania-upholds-voter-id-law/631582/539 "2012-10-03T02:55:21Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > That’s not fair. Nothing Bricker has said suggests he doesn’t care about your acquaintance. His utter silence on the Florida registration scandal has been dispositive to me. He doesn’t care about voter fraud per se, he cares about making sure Republicans win. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2012, 10:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pennsylvania-upholds-voter-id-law/631582/540 "2012-10-03T10:36:07Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Got it – thanks for the correction. > > I’m not so worried about Jim impersonating Joe. > > I’m worried about Sven, a non-citizen, registering and voting. > > I’m worried about Bob “The Snake,” a convicted felon, registering and voting. Hypotheticals are worrisome. [Actual cases of large-scale fraud?](http://articles.baltimoresun.com/2012-10-01/news/bs-ed-voter-id-20121001_1_voter-fraud-voter-id-laws-voter-registration) Eh, IOIYAR. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pennsylvania-upholds-voter-id-law/631582.md?page=26) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pennsylvania-upholds-voter-id-law/631582.md?page=28)