# Pentagon demands wounded vets refund part of their signing bonuses **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [December 3, 2007, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pentagon-demands-wounded-vets-refund-part-of-their-signing-bonuses/428714 "2007-12-03T22:18:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 15\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2007, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pentagon-demands-wounded-vets-refund-part-of-their-signing-bonuses/428714/41 "2007-12-06T19:42:06Z")
[QUOTE=Evil Captor] When you say “we” who are you talking about, elucidator? I don’t remember voting for Bush even once. I don’t remember supporting the war in Iraq, ever. I do support the war in Afghanistan, but not the way it has been conducted. [/QUOTE] Pretty big we. You are part of a society that sent soldiers into war, same as me. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2007, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pentagon-demands-wounded-vets-refund-part-of-their-signing-bonuses/428714/42 "2007-12-06T19:48:26Z")
[QUOTE=Mr. Moto] Pretty big we. You are part of a society that sent soldiers into war, same as me. [/QUOTE] And if you actively work against that aspect of your society, are you still part of the “We”? 'cos that would not be a very practical way of grouping, then. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2007, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pentagon-demands-wounded-vets-refund-part-of-their-signing-bonuses/428714/43 "2007-12-06T19:50:56Z")
In a nutshell. As is so often the case, **Moto** and myself are in accord. Ooops. _Postus interruptus_. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2007, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pentagon-demands-wounded-vets-refund-part-of-their-signing-bonuses/428714/44 "2007-12-06T19:58:56Z")
[QUOTE=MrDibble] And if you actively work against that aspect of your society, are you still part of the “We”? 'cos that would not be a very practical way of grouping, then. [/QUOTE] Arguable. I take that stance to recognize the collective nature of any society, that I cannot absolve myself of sins committed by my country and my people, simply because I disagree. But that is an entirely personal attitude, with no more foundation in reason than anyone elses. I should very much like to believe otherwise and hold myself innocent. But I don’t, and that’s that. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2007, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pentagon-demands-wounded-vets-refund-part-of-their-signing-bonuses/428714/45 "2007-12-06T20:01:33Z")
[QUOTE=MrDibble] And if you actively work against that aspect of your society, are you still part of the “We”? 'cos that would not be a very practical way of grouping, then. [/QUOTE] Well, it is a question of someone inside my tent pissing out, rather than someone outside my tent pissing in. Like you. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2007, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pentagon-demands-wounded-vets-refund-part-of-their-signing-bonuses/428714/46 "2007-12-06T20:22:15Z")
[QUOTE=elucidator] Arguable. I take that stance to recognize the collective nature of any society, that I cannot absolve myself of sins committed by my country and my people, simply because I disagree. But that is an entirely personal attitude, with no more foundation in reason than anyone elses. I should very much like to believe otherwise and hold myself innocent. But I don’t, and that’s that. [/QUOTE] My country is the whole world, or none. My people is the human race, or no-one. Or, to put it another way - an Iraqi peasant is as much a part of Society as I am, if I choose. Lines on a map, flags, these are arbitrary. Nation-states are a colossal mistake we all will wake up from, someday. Acting like they’re _real_, like you’re that much a part of the collective, just doesn’t work for me. I feel no guilt for what my countrymen do against my will. Living under a police state taught me that. Oh, if only I had a good counterexample for the folly of acting like our arbitrary countries are more important than our common humanity… [QUOTE=Mr. Moto] Well, it is a question of someone inside my tent pissing out, rather than someone outside my tent pissing in. Like you. [/QUOTE] …nevermind. **Moto** , lay down some tarp before you engage in a pissing contest, will ya. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2007, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pentagon-demands-wounded-vets-refund-part-of-their-signing-bonuses/428714/47 "2007-12-06T20:51:16Z")
[QUOTE=MrDibble] My country is the whole world, or none. My people is the human race, or no-one. Or, to put it another way - an Iraqi peasant is as much a part of Society as I am, if I choose. Lines on a map, flags, these are arbitrary. Nation-states are a colossal mistake we all will wake up from, someday. Acting like they’re _real_, like you’re that much a part of the collective, just doesn’t work for me. I feel no guilt for what my countrymen do against my will. Living under a police state taught me that. Oh, if only I had a good counterexample for the folly of acting like our arbitrary countries are more important than our common humanity… [/QUOTE] [QUOTE=MrDibble] Boo Hoo! Poor quasi-mercenaries didn’t get paid their blood money. Cry me a fucking river. Reap, meet Sow. [/QUOTE] [Link.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=8987697&postcount=19) Oh, your rhetoric is very flowery when you want it to be - but your anger and hatred are not concealed in the least, are they? You draw as many distinctions as the rest of us, you just do it in defense of your own little worldview - one shown convincingly in that last thread to be a limited one that necessarily lends to demonizing and impersonalizing your opposition. I don’t recall that you had much support there. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2007, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pentagon-demands-wounded-vets-refund-part-of-their-signing-bonuses/428714/48 "2007-12-06T21:14:08Z")
[QUOTE=Mr. Moto] Oh, your rhetoric is very flowery when you want it to be - but your anger and hatred are not concealed in the least, are they? You draw as many distinctions as the rest of us, you just do it in defense of your own little worldview - one shown convincingly in that last thread to be a limited one that necessarily lends to demonizing and impersonalizing your opposition. I don’t recall that you had much support there. [/QUOTE] I see no inconsistency between those two posts. Seeing the humanity in others doesn’t mean willing killers get my sympathy. And not adhering to the delusion that countries matter doesn’t mean I don’t judge people by what they do. That’s the important bit there - **judge them by what they freely chose to do**. That’s not impersonal, and if it’s “demonizing”, that’s only because their actions are demonic. And _argumentum ad populum_ is a fallacy. But I wasn’t alone. Just more vocal than most. But yes, I am angry, I freely admit it. Not proud of it, but there it is - brutal oppression brings out the worst in me. But I wouldn’t say I _hate_. “Loathing” is a much better term for the feeling I have for the troops still in Iraq and the people who sent them there. Yeah, _loathing_, like the feeling I have for cockroaches and junkyard rats. More visceral, somatic, overtones of revulsion and repulsion - rather than a desire to personally hurt or destroy, which is what hatred makes me think of. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2007, 3:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pentagon-demands-wounded-vets-refund-part-of-their-signing-bonuses/428714/49 "2007-12-07T03:28:19Z")
[QUOTE=MrDibble] But I wouldn’t say I _hate_. “Loathing” is a much better term for the feeling I have for the troops still in Iraq and the people who sent them there. Yeah, _loathing_, like the feeling I have for cockroaches and junkyard rats. [/QUOTE] Cockroaches and junkyard rats? That’s seeing the humanity in others, sure. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2007, 7:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pentagon-demands-wounded-vets-refund-part-of-their-signing-bonuses/428714/50 "2007-12-07T07:52:46Z")
[QUOTE=Mr. Moto] Cockroaches and junkyard rats? That’s seeing the humanity in others, sure. [/QUOTE] Did you perhaps mistake “humanity” for “angelhood”? There are parts of the human psyche that are animal and brutal, predatory and vicious, low and dirty. I have no rose-coloured glasses on that score. We all have that in common - “shared humanity” doesn’t only mean the nice bits. Where do you think I get my anger and loathing _from_? Nietzsche said it best : “human, alas, all too human!” ---
**Author:** ![askeptic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/eb9ed0/32.png) [@askeptic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/askeptic)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2007, 7:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pentagon-demands-wounded-vets-refund-part-of-their-signing-bonuses/428714/51 "2007-12-07T07:59:10Z")
You know what, Moto? I am an American, a combat veteran, I love this country I have had my ass shot at in both South West Asia and South Central Los Angeles, and I am less offended by Dibble than I am by you. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2007, 11:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pentagon-demands-wounded-vets-refund-part-of-their-signing-bonuses/428714/52 "2007-12-07T11:41:33Z")
[QUOTE=askeptic] You know what, Moto? I am an American, a combat veteran, I love this country I have had my ass shot at in both South West Asia and South Central Los Angeles, and I am less offended by Dibble than I am by you. [/QUOTE] But are you saying that as a cockroach, or as a junkyard rat? ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2007, 12:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pentagon-demands-wounded-vets-refund-part-of-their-signing-bonuses/428714/53 "2007-12-07T12:04:37Z")
[QUOTE=Liberal] But are you saying that as a cockroach, or as a junkyard rat? [/QUOTE] Look who’s back! So, got anything else to say, after the last dig fizzled? ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2007, 12:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pentagon-demands-wounded-vets-refund-part-of-their-signing-bonuses/428714/54 "2007-12-07T12:11:29Z")
I meant to add - “anything substantive to say” above. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2007, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pentagon-demands-wounded-vets-refund-part-of-their-signing-bonuses/428714/55 "2007-12-07T14:05:13Z")
[QUOTE=askeptic] You know what, Moto? I am an American, a combat veteran, I love this country I have had my ass shot at in both South West Asia and South Central Los Angeles, and I am less offended by Dibble than I am by you. [/QUOTE] Why? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pentagon-demands-wounded-vets-refund-part-of-their-signing-bonuses/428714.md?page=2)