# Pentagon launches investigation of misconduct against Sen. Mark Kelly **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Tags:** trump\ **Created:** [November 24, 2025, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pentagon-launches-investigation-of-misconduct-against-sen-mark-kelly/1025101 "2025-11-24T18:41:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![ParallelLines](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/parallellines/32/3575_2.png) [@ParallelLines](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ParallelLines)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2025, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pentagon-launches-investigation-of-misconduct-against-sen-mark-kelly/1025101/141 "2025-11-30T21:36:57Z")
**Moderating:** [just a minor mod-nudge, but still] Just a reminder, this thread is on the investigation into Mark Kelly. We do have a Pit thread on the government’s attacks on claimed drug boats: > [@Mass murder on the high seas (Venezuelan "drug boat")](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-murder-on-the-high-seas-venezuelan-drug-boat/1022910): > > I’m not seeing much coverage of this outrage. The officer in charge obeyed an illegal order to blow up the vessel. As has been said elsewhere, eleven people to deliver drugs makes no sense. And it was hundreds of miles from the US, giving them ample time to intercept. trump wanted to send a message, and he did. He’s a mass murderer. And a FQ thread on the general topic: > [@Blowing up boats off So. America - war crime or not?](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blowing-up-boats-off-so-america-war-crime-or-not/1024479): > > I’ve read a few threads that vaguely explain the concept of “illegal orders” and that those orders should not be obeyed. I’ve read a few threads that imply the blowing up of boats without some justification (declaration of war, etc) is illegal. I recognize that the political powers-that-be will never be held accountable. Are the members of the military who have followed and obeyed what I think are illegal orders subject to punishment under the UCMJ? As a very old phart who served a long, lon… A dedicated P&E thread for that subject would be fine as well (hint, hint), but let’s keep _this_ thread on topic. I don’t argue that drift happens, and speculation about Republican’s actually holding the administration responsible IS on topic, but wanted to limit the sidetrack as much as possible. Just a note to keep us on topic, nothing specifically directed at the last 5 posts. ---
**Author:** ![EddyTeddyFreddy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eddyteddyfreddy/32/18796_2.png) [@EddyTeddyFreddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EddyTeddyFreddy)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2025, 2:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pentagon-launches-investigation-of-misconduct-against-sen-mark-kelly/1025101/142 "2025-12-01T02:08:50Z")
For me, the relevance of Hegs-whatever’s getting tied up in blowback over the kill them all orders is that it could ensnarl him in such controversy, defensiveness, and perhaps even ejection under the bus that his attacks on Kelly get totally derailed, and the whole stupid thing goes away. ---
**Author:** ![PhillyGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ed655f/32.png) [@PhillyGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PhillyGuy)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2025, 2:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pentagon-launches-investigation-of-misconduct-against-sen-mark-kelly/1025101/143 "2025-12-01T02:28:09Z")
I think the last post is smart post and quite relevant to the thread. For Hegseth to have Kelly convicted, military prosecutors and judges, at least some of them, must have a high level of fear as to what will happen if they defy the SecDef. If the SecDef is weakened by congressional censure or similar, the military judges will be more likely to do what they know is right. ---
**Author:** ![Son\_of\_a\_Rich](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/son_of_a_rich/32/5439_2.png) [@Son\_of\_a\_Rich](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Son_of_a_Rich)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2025, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pentagon-launches-investigation-of-misconduct-against-sen-mark-kelly/1025101/144 "2025-12-01T15:16:00Z")
They might get an earful if they ask Kelly for an example of an illegal order. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2025, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pentagon-launches-investigation-of-misconduct-against-sen-mark-kelly/1025101/145 "2025-12-01T16:04:33Z")
He could quote the DoD’s own Law of War Manual: > [@Blowing up boats off So. America - war crime or not?](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blowing-up-boats-off-so-america-war-crime-or-not/1024479/23): > > Killing survivors of a wrecked boat is explicitly cited by the Department of Defense’s Law of War Manual 18.3.2.1 as “clearly illegal”: [![](https://scontent-iad3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/591741318_10173533449705037_8830552256185235452_n.jpg?_nc_cat=101&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=127cfc&_nc_ohc=PiWUFpzASgkQ7kNvwHes6ob&_nc_oc=AdkkdlQt_4uB2WskxNZx3L_SMIcr16hLaj-_Lysa5Ppk8oZZdPg_wNcPv2TLE_nzcIbDu81p_KixEnlJEPwGH2Rp&_nc_zt=23&_nc_ht=scontent-iad3-1.xx&_nc_gid=_Z7icVeBzfblspJbeEdDIg&oh=00_AfjjrXQLiQeUpyotDLssoi059BqlZxcrzbdSEKLMlf28cA&oe=6932A7E5) ](https://scontent-iad3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/591741318_10173533449705037_8830552256185235452_n.jpg?_nc_cat=101&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=127cfc&_nc_ohc=PiWUFpzASgkQ7kNvwHes6ob&_nc_oc=AdkkdlQt_4uB2WskxNZx3L_SMIcr16hLaj-_Lysa5Ppk8oZZdPg_wNcPv2TLE_nzcIbDu81p_KixEnlJEPwGH2Rp&_nc_zt=23&_nc_ht=scontent-iad3-1.xx&_nc_gid=_Z7icVeBzfblspJbeEdDIg&oh=00_AfjjrXQLiQeUpyotDLssoi059BqlZxcrzbdSEKLMlf28cA&oe=6932A7E5) ---
**Author:** ![Sherrerd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sherrerd/32/8_2.png) [@Sherrerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sherrerd)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2025, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pentagon-launches-investigation-of-misconduct-against-sen-mark-kelly/1025101/146 "2025-12-01T22:48:57Z")
> [@Blowing up boats off So. America - war crime or not?](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blowing-up-boats-off-so-america-war-crime-or-not/1024479/23): > > He could quote the DoD’s own Law of War Manual: > > > [@Blowing up boats off So. America - war crime or not?](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blowing-up-boats-off-so-america-war-crime-or-not/1024479/23): > > > > Killing survivors of a wrecked boat is explicitly cited by the Department of Defense’s Law of War Manual 18.3.2.1 as “clearly illegal”: Well, that’s inconveniently specific. I’m guessing that Pete is feverishly exploring ways to edit the _DoD Law of War Manual_… ---
**Author:** ![OttoDaFe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ottodafe/32/356_2.png) [@OttoDaFe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OttoDaFe)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2025, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pentagon-launches-investigation-of-misconduct-against-sen-mark-kelly/1025101/147 "2025-12-02T02:11:02Z")
No problem: the Department of War can’t be constrained by any weak-kneed, namby-pamby “Department of Defense” “laws.” ---
**Author:** ![PhillyGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ed655f/32.png) [@PhillyGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PhillyGuy)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2025, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pentagon-launches-investigation-of-misconduct-against-sen-mark-kelly/1025101/148 "2025-12-02T02:36:15Z")
> [@Son\_of\_a\_Rich](#): > > They might get an earful if they ask Kelly for an example of an illegal order. [Kelly today:](https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/sen-kelly-slams-trump-calls-investigation-caribbean-strikes/story?id=128013547) > [@](#): > > “I hope what we are hearing is not … accurate. I will say, though you know as somebody who has sunk two ships myself, that folks in the military need to understand, you know, the Law of the Sea, the Geneva Conventions, what the law says. And I’m concerned that if there were, in fact, as reported, you know, survivors clinging to a damaged vessel, that that could be, you know, over a line. I hope it’s not the case,” Kelly said. Not an earful, but rather a measured response. Maybe he’s being measured just in case WaPo has a mistake in their story. But it now looks to be not just crossing a line, but a chasm. Being willing to take prisoners, and not firing on the shipwrecked, are probably the easiest lines to remember and draw in terms of war crimes against combatants. U.S. forces may have violated these principles a few times in World War II against Japan, but that was in combat, with the psychology inevitable there. This September 2 situation was one in which Hegseth, Admiral Bradley, and even people under Bradley, were almost surely sitting with perfect safety in offices. This shows how important the video was. It will need repetition. When orders so manifestly illegal come down the chain, everyone in the chain is responsible to resist. That, apparently, no one did, when they were at no physical risk — just career risk — is super disturbing. ---
**Author:** ![WOOKINPANUBv.2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wookinpanubv.2/32/3260_2.png) [@WOOKINPANUBv.2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WOOKINPANUBv.2)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2025, 3:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pentagon-launches-investigation-of-misconduct-against-sen-mark-kelly/1025101/149 "2025-12-02T03:05:40Z")
Didn’t dickhead Kegsbreath dickhead boss say, possibly several times, regarding the narcoterrorist sham, that “we’ll kill them all” or something to that effect? Rhetorical question, I know he did, I just can’t wade through all the shite to find that particular quote. I recall being a bit surprised that it wasn’t called out, but then I remembered we don’t really have too many journalists anymore. ---
**Author:** ![Atamasama](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atamasama/32/12961_2.png) [@Atamasama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atamasama)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2025, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pentagon-launches-investigation-of-misconduct-against-sen-mark-kelly/1025101/150 "2025-12-02T03:10:56Z")
> [@WOOKINPANUBv.2](#): > > Didn’t dickhead Kegsbreath dickhead boss say, possibly several times, regarding the narcoterrorist sham, that “we’ll kill them all” or something to that effect? Rhetorical question, I know he did, I just can’t wade through all the shite to find that particular quote. [https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/2025/11/28/hegseth-kill-them-all-survivors-boat-strike/](https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/2025/11/28/hegseth-kill-them-all-survivors-boat-strike/) There you go. ---
**Author:** ![WOOKINPANUBv.2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wookinpanubv.2/32/3260_2.png) [@WOOKINPANUBv.2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WOOKINPANUBv.2)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2025, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pentagon-launches-investigation-of-misconduct-against-sen-mark-kelly/1025101/151 "2025-12-02T03:21:28Z")
Thanks, @Atamasama. I was thinking more of when Trump said that “we’re going to kill them” > **[“We’re Going to Kill Them”: Trump Claims Broad Authority to Launch Strikes...](https://www.democracynow.org/2025/10/24/headlines/were_going_to_kill_them_trump_claims_broad_authority_to_launch_strikes_against_alleged_drug_boats)** > > President Trump asserted Thursday that he had the authority to continue to launch airstrikes against alleged drug boats in international waters without a congressional declaration of war. Since September, the Pentagon says it’s struck nine alleged... More proof that all these a-holes are on the same page. I hope they go down together. Fuckers. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2025, 3:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pentagon-launches-investigation-of-misconduct-against-sen-mark-kelly/1025101/152 "2025-12-02T03:34:40Z")
> [@PhillyGuy](#): > > Not an earful, but rather a measured response. Maybe he’s being measured just in case WaPo has a mistake in their story. But it now looks to be not just crossing a line, but a chasm. Being willing to take prisoners, and not firing on the shipwrecked, are probably the easiest lines to remember and draw in terms of war crimes against combatants. Yep, the Allies condemned some Germans for firing on shipwreck survivors. That is a total no-no. (but sometimes in the heat of battle, bad things occur, but this was not in the heat of battle) Sorry for the AI but this is not the main point- _“The [Peleus trial](https://www.google.com/search?q=Peleus+trial&sca_esv=233e60072d3234a0&ei=m10uab7EL5Wxur8P8I6w-Qs&ved=2ahUKEwiVw5jl-52RAxVfEUQIHeV5IpAQgK4QegQIAhAD&uact=5&oq=nuremberg+trials+firing+on+shipwreck+survivors&gs_lp=Egxnd3Mtd2l6LXNlcnAiLm51cmVtYmVyZyB0cmlhbHMgZmlyaW5nIG9uIHNoaXB3cmVjayBzdXJ2aXZvcnMyBRAhGKABMgUQIRigATIFECEYqwJIj1pQowlYxlhwAXgBkAEAmAHLAaABqBiqAQYyMC45LjG4AQPIAQD4AQGYAh-gAo4ZwgIKEAAYsAMY1gQYR8ICDRAAGIAEGLADGEMYigXCAg4QABiwAxjkAhjWBNgBAcICEBAuGLADGNYEGEcYyAPYAQHCAhMQLhiABBiwAxhDGMgDGIoF2AEBwgIZEC4YgAQYsAMYQxjHARjIAxiKBRivAdgBAcICCBAuGIAEGLEDwgIFEAAYgATCAgoQABiABBhDGIoFwgILEC4YgAQYxwEYrwHCAhcQLhiABBixAxiXBRjcBBjeBBjgBNgBAcICBRAuGIAEwgIUEC4YgAQYlwUY3AQY3gQY4ATYAQHCAgYQABgWGB7CAggQABgWGAoYHsICCxAAGIAEGIYDGIoFwgIFEAAY7wXCAggQABiABBiiBMICBRAhGJ8FmAMAiAYBkAYTugYGCAEQARgJkgcHMTkuMTEuMaAHjZ0BsgcHMTguMTEuMbgHiBnCBwY1LjIyLjTIBz4&sclient=gws-wiz-serp&mstk=AUtExfA7i6Ql3A8gWQQ7z_wQaBsQKTXx6_9Urv414NXdXVGvAlkAqDwOMKjqSzNXWmE_kJeSJ5gHfIxPIobpSLRufJ0s4xlJ4rKvJ21zBwvoSQQ-x7MSz1T_u-UTrxTHHsBAtAISC8ImfpTqnkkjcc3FmY5ayWRPw4TmjLszbfopdE2v6UJeXxojFCskjq81ZyrV83Fu&csui=3) (1945), not the main Nuremberg International Military Tribunal, was a post-war British military trial in Hamburg that resulted in the conviction and execution of the commander of the German submarine U-852, [Heinz-Wilhelm Eck](https://www.google.com/search?q=Heinz-Wilhelm+Eck&sca_esv=233e60072d3234a0&ei=m10uab7EL5Wxur8P8I6w-Qs&ved=2ahUKEwiVw5jl-52RAxVfEUQIHeV5IpAQgK4QegQIAhAE&uact=5&oq=nuremberg+trials+firing+on+shipwreck+survivors&gs_lp=Egxnd3Mtd2l6LXNlcnAiLm51cmVtYmVyZyB0cmlhbHMgZmlyaW5nIG9uIHNoaXB3cmVjayBzdXJ2aXZvcnMyBRAhGKABMgUQIRigATIFECEYqwJIj1pQowlYxlhwAXgBkAEAmAHLAaABqBiqAQYyMC45LjG4AQPIAQD4AQGYAh-gAo4ZwgIKEAAYsAMY1gQYR8ICDRAAGIAEGLADGEMYigXCAg4QABiwAxjkAhjWBNgBAcICEBAuGLADGNYEGEcYyAPYAQHCAhMQLhiABBiwAxhDGMgDGIoF2AEBwgIZEC4YgAQYsAMYQxjHARjIAxiKBRivAdgBAcICCBAuGIAEGLEDwgIFEAAYgATCAgoQABiABBhDGIoFwgILEC4YgAQYxwEYrwHCAhcQLhiABBixAxiXBRjcBBjeBBjgBNgBAcICBRAuGIAEwgIUEC4YgAQYlwUY3AQY3gQY4ATYAQHCAgYQABgWGB7CAggQABgWGAoYHsICCxAAGIAEGIYDGIoFwgIFEAAY7wXCAggQABiABBiiBMICBRAhGJ8FmAMAiAYBkAYTugYGCAEQARgJkgcHMTkuMTEuMaAHjZ0BsgcHMTguMTEuMbgHiBnCBwY1LjIyLjTIBz4&sclient=gws-wiz-serp&mstk=AUtExfA7i6Ql3A8gWQQ7z_wQaBsQKTXx6_9Urv414NXdXVGvAlkAqDwOMKjqSzNXWmE_kJeSJ5gHfIxPIobpSLRufJ0s4xlJ4rKvJ21zBwvoSQQ-x7MSz1T_u-UTrxTHHsBAtAISC8ImfpTqnkkjcc3FmY5ayWRPw4TmjLszbfopdE2v6UJeXxojFCskjq81ZyrV83Fu&csui=3), and two others for war crimes._ _Eck’s U-boat crew attacked the survivors of a sunken Greek freighter, the Peleus, by firing on their lifeboats and rafts__. Eck and two other crew members were sentenced to death and executed by firing squad in November 1945, though the main Nuremberg trials were held separately. “_ Mind you, it is legal- under international law to sink _Pirate ships_ in International Waters-they are considered _“hostis humani generis”_ (an enemy of all mankind). So, the drug boats are a stretch. But not survivors clinging to a wreck. ---
**Author:** ![Kolak\_of\_Twilo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kolak_of_twilo/32/73_2.png) [@Kolak\_of\_Twilo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kolak_of_Twilo)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2025, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pentagon-launches-investigation-of-misconduct-against-sen-mark-kelly/1025101/153 "2025-12-02T03:59:30Z")
Let’s keep in mind these “drug” boats may or may not have any actual drugs on them. So far there has been zero evidence they do. But hey, DJT and Hegseth say they do have drugs onboard and we know those two wouldn’t lie about such a thing so it must be true. ---
**Author:** ![WOOKINPANUBv.2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wookinpanubv.2/32/3260_2.png) [@WOOKINPANUBv.2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WOOKINPANUBv.2)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2025, 5:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pentagon-launches-investigation-of-misconduct-against-sen-mark-kelly/1025101/154 "2025-12-02T05:29:13Z")
If anyone has not yet seen it, Senator Kelly gave a damn good speech about Donnie and Pete’s fuckery. Surprisingly, it was aired in its entirety on Fox, though I imagine you can find it online. I want to see more of this. He’s being very careful not to shame the military, and showing restraint, but he’s coming a lot closer to ‘telling it like it is’ than any of our useless Press. ---
**Author:** ![CoolHandCox](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/coolhandcox/32/16233_2.png) [@CoolHandCox](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CoolHandCox)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2025, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pentagon-launches-investigation-of-misconduct-against-sen-mark-kelly/1025101/155 "2025-12-02T16:52:34Z")
> [@PhillyGuy](#): > > When orders so **manifestly illegal** come down the chain, everyone in the chain is responsible to resist. That, apparently, no one did, when they were at no physical risk — just career risk — is super disturbing. _I bolded manifestly illegal_. As you know, that is the standard to refuse an order. For everyone else, it just means it has to be extremely obvious that what you are ordering/doing is illegal. Shooting POWs in the head. Killing civilians in a village. Etc. In no way, would anyone get in trouble for doing something technically, even 100%, illegal, _unless_ it was extremely obvious. The military can’t run that way. That would be legit pushback to Kelly saying refuse illegal orders. The manifestly illegal standard is what would a reasonable _person_ (not military) do in that situation. You and I are reasonable people and we can judge whether something is obviously right or wrong. The _order_ to strike a small speed boat is probably manifestly illegal. There is no armed conflict. It should not be ordered at a high level. The person who flies the drone and pushes the button/carries out the order, can presume the order is legal and only should not do it unless it is over the top obviously illegal. That’s a bit tougher, but certainly judgeable. The second strike, you can’t order it nor carry out that order. Any reasonable person would conclude those “combatants” are out of the fight/no longer a threat and then it’s just murder. Someone will go down for this one. Now that it’s publicly known, the military wouldn’t want that to be excused because it will get our military killed when they are out of the fight. ---
**Author:** ![Atamasama](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atamasama/32/12961_2.png) [@Atamasama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atamasama)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2025, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pentagon-launches-investigation-of-misconduct-against-sen-mark-kelly/1025101/156 "2025-12-02T16:57:21Z")
> [@CoolHandCox](#): > > The second strike, you can’t order it nor carry out that order. Any reasonable person would conclude those “combatants” are out of the fight/no longer a threat and then it’s just murder. Someone will go down for this one. Now that it’s publicly known, the military wouldn’t want that to be excused because it will get our military killed when they are out of the fight. Yes, even this administration isn’t trying to defend this one, and instead they’re trying to pin it on a scapegoat. To me, this is _exactly_ what Kelly and others were talking about. This pretty much deflates any effort to say their message was wrong. Nobody can say, “What orders?” Because that is clearly an order nobody can obey. (Well, I see Megyn Kelly and maybe other RW talking heads trying to justify it, bit nobody in the administration at least.) ---
**Author:** ![Joey\_P](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/919ad9/32.png) [@Joey\_P](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Joey_P)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2025, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pentagon-launches-investigation-of-misconduct-against-sen-mark-kelly/1025101/157 "2025-12-02T17:08:05Z")
> [@CoolHandCox](#): > > In no way, would anyone get in trouble for doing something technically, even 100%, illegal, _unless_ it was extremely obvious. That DoD War Manual says pretty much exactly that. > Subordinates are not required to screen the orders of superiors for questionable points of legality, and may, absent specific knowledge to the contrary, presume that orders have been lawfully issued ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2025, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pentagon-launches-investigation-of-misconduct-against-sen-mark-kelly/1025101/158 "2025-12-02T21:13:18Z")
It says they _may_ presume it’s lawful, meaning they won’t get in trouble for doing so. But what if they decide it’s unlawful and refuse? Will they get in trouble for that? is the question. Robert Anton Wilson suggested: Take a private and have two officers of equal rank, one commanding him to stand and the other simultaneously commanding him to sit. Presumably the subject will _wig out_. ---
**Author:** ![abcdefghij](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/43a26b/32.png) [@abcdefghij](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/abcdefghij)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2025, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pentagon-launches-investigation-of-misconduct-against-sen-mark-kelly/1025101/159 "2025-12-02T21:20:18Z")
> [@Johanna](#): > > But what if they decide it’s unlawful and refuse? Will they get in trouble for that? Almost certainly yes. They may ultimately be exonerated, but there will be short term hell to pay. The [Marine Captain](https://www.upi.com/amp/Archives/1983/02/02/A-Marine-captain-his-gun-drawn-and-loaded-jumped/5716413010000/) who taught me about illegal orders told us something to the effect of “you’d better be right and, even if you are right, it’s probably the end of your career”. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2025, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pentagon-launches-investigation-of-misconduct-against-sen-mark-kelly/1025101/160 "2025-12-02T21:23:39Z")
> [@abcdefghij](#): > > Almost certainly yes. The old “I didnt understand that order” or I didnt get that order” defenses, have worked well. See Admiral Nelson for an example. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pentagon-launches-investigation-of-misconduct-against-sen-mark-kelly/1025101.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pentagon-launches-investigation-of-misconduct-against-sen-mark-kelly/1025101.md?page=9)