# Pentagon launches investigation of misconduct against Sen. Mark Kelly **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Tags:** trump\ **Created:** [November 24, 2025, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pentagon-launches-investigation-of-misconduct-against-sen-mark-kelly/1025101 "2025-11-24T18:41:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2025, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pentagon-launches-investigation-of-misconduct-against-sen-mark-kelly/1025101/161 "2025-12-02T21:23:52Z")
> [@Johanna](#): > > Robert Anton Wilson suggested: Take a private and have two officers of equal rank, one commanding him to stand and the other simultaneously commanding him to sit. Presumably the subject will _wig out_. Of two officers of equal rank, only one will be in the private’s chain of command, and that will be the one that he obeys. Or, if they’re both out of his chain of command, then his response should be to ask the officer who is in his chain of command which he should obey. ---
**Author:** ![Atamasama](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atamasama/32/12961_2.png) [@Atamasama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atamasama)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2025, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pentagon-launches-investigation-of-misconduct-against-sen-mark-kelly/1025101/162 "2025-12-02T21:31:22Z")
> [@Johanna](#): > > Robert Anton Wilson suggested: Take a private and have two officers of equal rank, one commanding him to stand and the other simultaneously commanding him to sit. Presumably the subject will _wig out_. I never served in the military, but in my retail days I had two bickering managers who gave me conflicting orders and basically made me a ping pong ball, where each one demanded I do the opposite of what the other did and would be upset if I didn’t. They were of equal rank and equal authority over me. And yes, I wigged out. Toys R Us was not a great place to work for many reasons. At least I never had to worry about facing a court martial there. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2025, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pentagon-launches-investigation-of-misconduct-against-sen-mark-kelly/1025101/163 "2025-12-02T21:38:15Z")
When they do have them, does Geoffrey preside? ---
**Author:** ![Love\_Rhombus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/love_rhombus/32/10694_2.png) [@Love\_Rhombus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Love_Rhombus)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2025, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pentagon-launches-investigation-of-misconduct-against-sen-mark-kelly/1025101/164 "2025-12-02T23:19:14Z")
> [@abcdefghij](#): > > Almost certainly yes. They may ultimately be exonerated, but there will be short term hell to pay. The [Marine Captain](https://www.upi.com/amp/Archives/1983/02/02/A-Marine-captain-his-gun-drawn-and-loaded-jumped/5716413010000/) who taught me about illegal orders told us something to the effect of “you’d better be right and, even if you are right, it’s probably the end of your career”. So it’s damned if you do, damned if you don’t? ---
**Author:** ![abcdefghij](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/43a26b/32.png) [@abcdefghij](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/abcdefghij)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2025, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pentagon-launches-investigation-of-misconduct-against-sen-mark-kelly/1025101/165 "2025-12-02T23:33:13Z")
> [@Love\_Rhombus](#): > > So it’s damned if you do, damned if you don’t? In a command structure that’s issuing illegal orders? Well, yeah. ---
**Author:** ![Love\_Rhombus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/love_rhombus/32/10694_2.png) [@Love\_Rhombus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Love_Rhombus)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2025, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pentagon-launches-investigation-of-misconduct-against-sen-mark-kelly/1025101/166 "2025-12-02T23:34:13Z")
In that case it might be a hard choice whether to obey. 😩 ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2025, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pentagon-launches-investigation-of-misconduct-against-sen-mark-kelly/1025101/167 "2025-12-02T23:34:54Z")
> [@Love\_Rhombus](#): > > > [@abcdefghij](#): > > > > “you’d better be right and, even if you are right, it’s probably the end of your career”. > > So it’s damned if you do, damned if you don’t? As a member of the service (especially in the case of officers), you should be expected to care more about your integrity and fidelity to your oath than about your career prospects. ---
**Author:** ![abcdefghij](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/43a26b/32.png) [@abcdefghij](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/abcdefghij)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2025, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pentagon-launches-investigation-of-misconduct-against-sen-mark-kelly/1025101/168 "2025-12-02T23:35:21Z")
Absolutely, but only one choice is the right thing to do ---
**Author:** ![abcdefghij](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/43a26b/32.png) [@abcdefghij](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/abcdefghij)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2025, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pentagon-launches-investigation-of-misconduct-against-sen-mark-kelly/1025101/169 "2025-12-02T23:42:33Z")
> [@abcdefghij](#): > > The [Marine Captain](https://www.upi.com/amp/Archives/1983/02/02/A-Marine-captain-his-gun-drawn-and-loaded-jumped/5716413010000/) who taught me about illegal orders told us something to the effect of “you’d better be right and, even if you are right, it’s probably the end of your career”. I worry that I’ve given the impression that his point was “don’t risk it” and nothing could be further from the truth. He absolutely drilled into us our obligation not to follow illegal orders. He just wanted us clear that it was hugely consequential. ---
**Author:** ![Atamasama](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atamasama/32/12961_2.png) [@Atamasama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atamasama)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2025, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pentagon-launches-investigation-of-misconduct-against-sen-mark-kelly/1025101/170 "2025-12-02T23:47:44Z")
> [@abcdefghij](#): > > I worry that I’ve given the impression that his point was “don’t risk it” and nothing could be further from the truth. He absolutely drilled into us our obligation not to follow illegal orders. He just wanted us clear that it was hugely consequential. A couple of my thoughts here… If I follow orders I know are clearly illegal, forget for a moment the moral implications. I expect I’m also putting myself at legal risk. We all know that the “just following orders” excuse isn’t a magic shield. Secondly, regarding my career prospects, would I _want_ a career where I’m being ordered to commit war crimes? I don’t think I would want that. ETA: Let me add, I’m not a military member. I have not spent years of my life in service, where I’ve built up a career. I have not gone through the process of being broken down in boot camp and then built back up to be more compliant. I haven’t dealt with the daily indoctrination and routine that drills conformity into a person. So, I can’t say what this choice might look like to someone who might actually be in that position, and can’t fairly judge anyone who is in that position. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2025, 6:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pentagon-launches-investigation-of-misconduct-against-sen-mark-kelly/1025101/171 "2025-12-03T06:43:33Z")
> [@abcdefghij](#): > > They may ultimately be exonerated, but there will be short term hell to pay. The [Marine Captain](https://www.upi.com/amp/Archives/1983/02/02/A-Marine-captain-his-gun-drawn-and-loaded-jumped/5716413010000/) who taught me about illegal orders told us something to the effect of “you’d better be right and, even if you are right, it’s probably the end of your career”. Sound like a cool dude. The thing about trying someone for refusing an illegal order is that the order itself and its legality will become the subject of a court martial, which is something the person who issued the order in the first place might not want. So I’m guessing that many - maybe most - refusals to follow problematic orders are ultimately swept under the rug, so as not to raise a fuss. It’s still a good way to make enemies, though. ---
**Author:** ![Hoops](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hoops/32/6408_2.png) [@Hoops](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hoops)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2025, 7:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pentagon-launches-investigation-of-misconduct-against-sen-mark-kelly/1025101/172 "2025-12-03T07:10:42Z")
Simplify it. Here: a senior officer. There: a junior officer. Over there: a known drug dealer. Senior officer says to the junior officer, “Take out your handgun and shoot that known drug dealer over there in the head.” Legal order or not? ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2025, 9:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pentagon-launches-investigation-of-misconduct-against-sen-mark-kelly/1025101/173 "2025-12-03T09:36:26Z")
“Can I have that in writing?” ---
**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2025, 10:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pentagon-launches-investigation-of-misconduct-against-sen-mark-kelly/1025101/174 "2025-12-03T10:53:32Z")
Nice. Seriously, I found your post helpful. There’s no logical reason the psychological distancing effect of a drone strike should make a difference. ---
**Author:** ![abcdefghij](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/43a26b/32.png) [@abcdefghij](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/abcdefghij)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2025, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pentagon-launches-investigation-of-misconduct-against-sen-mark-kelly/1025101/175 "2025-12-03T15:28:29Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Sound like a cool dude. Cool under pressure? Absolutely. Cool dude to hang out with? Not so much. The guy was very intense; even for a Marine. ---
**Author:** ![enipla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/54ee81/32.png) [@enipla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enipla)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2025, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pentagon-launches-investigation-of-misconduct-against-sen-mark-kelly/1025101/176 "2025-12-03T19:07:19Z")
The only thing this ‘administration’ does is blame others for the administrations misconduct. That’s it. That’s Trumps administration. It’s a criminal enterprise. A stupid one. But still criminal. ---
**Author:** ![Zoobi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/13edae/32.png) [@Zoobi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoobi)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2025, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pentagon-launches-investigation-of-misconduct-against-sen-mark-kelly/1025101/177 "2025-12-03T19:37:10Z")
This is leaving out a very very big piece. Background: the command in chief of your country has declared drug dealers as unlawful combatants, and the elected Congress feels no need to contradict him. > **[Trump says US is in 'armed conflict' with drug cartels after ordering strikes...](https://apnews.com/article/trump-cartels-armed-conflict-cb57804807e55a00ace60ad5f4d4f24d)** > > President Donald Trump has declared drug cartels to be unlawful combatants and says the United States is now in an “armed conflict." ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2025, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pentagon-launches-investigation-of-misconduct-against-sen-mark-kelly/1025101/178 "2025-12-03T21:27:14Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > “Can I have that in writing?” Yep, or “I am not sure if I heard that correctly”. ---
**Author:** ![irae](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/f0a364/32.png) [@irae](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/irae)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2025, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pentagon-launches-investigation-of-misconduct-against-sen-mark-kelly/1025101/179 "2025-12-03T21:52:23Z")
Ruh Roh… Petey’s in trooooouble! [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/nk_WaGy1aY4/maxresdefault.jpg "Hegseth in 2016: US troops ‘won’t follow unlawful orders’") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nk_WaGy1aY4) ---
**Author:** ![Ancient\_Nerd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ed655f/32.png) [@Ancient\_Nerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ancient_Nerd)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2025, 8:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pentagon-launches-investigation-of-misconduct-against-sen-mark-kelly/1025101/180 "2025-12-04T08:32:15Z")
> [@Atamasama](#): > > I never served in the military, but in my retail days I had two bickering managers who gave me conflicting orders and basically made me a ping pong ball, where each one demanded I do the opposite of what the other did and would be upset if I didn’t. They were of equal rank and equal authority over me. And yes, I wigged out. My strategy was to get the two of them standing there together as I asked what I should do. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pentagon-launches-investigation-of-misconduct-against-sen-mark-kelly/1025101.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pentagon-launches-investigation-of-misconduct-against-sen-mark-kelly/1025101.md?page=10)