# Pentagon lifts ban on women in combat **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [January 23, 2013, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pentagon-lifts-ban-on-women-in-combat/648156 "2013-01-23T22:52:35Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2013, 12:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pentagon-lifts-ban-on-women-in-combat/648156/101 "2013-01-28T12:35:47Z")
> [@Doggo](#): > > but has anyone in authority asked the front line soldiers if THEY think it’s OK? After all, they are the ones that will die if the politicians get it wrong. Lovely sentiment, but you know that is no way to run an army. As long as standards are not relaxed to artificially enable a certain percentage of female Combat Arms troops, let whoever can handle it, handle it; let whoever washes out, wash out. ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2013, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pentagon-lifts-ban-on-women-in-combat/648156/102 "2013-01-28T17:53:10Z")
> [@JRDelirious](#): > > Lovely sentiment, but you know that is no way to run an army. > > As long as standards are not relaxed to artificially enable a certain percentage of female Combat Arms troops, let whoever can handle it, handle it; let whoever washes out, wash out. I can spare a fiver for a punt on the guess that it’s only a matter of time before that percentage becomes a cause for concern, and if it’s lower than it ought to be then “institutionalized sexism” will get the blame. ---
**Author:** ![Boozahol\_Squid\_P.I](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/d9b06d/32.png) [@Boozahol\_Squid\_P.I](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boozahol_Squid_P.I)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2013, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pentagon-lifts-ban-on-women-in-combat/648156/103 "2013-01-28T19:10:12Z")
> [@Doggo](#): > > Perhaps you should learn something about combat in the field before launching on a rant. > In Vietnam ( watch Platoon if you don’t remember that one ) troops in the field dug a foxhole when they stopped patrolling for the night. Or do you think they all slept in bulletproof cabins that they carried on their backs? > Or, maybe you think the days of patrolling are over? > > Why do men and women have different standards of appearance? If women want to do men’s jobs, then they should have the same standards. Any less is hypocritical. > > You are obviously one messed up in the head puppy if you think I was slandering anyone. I don’t need to watch a damn movie to know what living in a combat zone is like. I redeployed from Afghanistan last December, so my memory hasn’t had that much time to get fuzzy. Men and women have different standards of appearance because a basic principle behind AR 670-1 is maintaining a professional look, and our culture has different standards on what professionalism looks like for men and women. ---
**Author:** ![Bear\_Nenno](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bear_nenno/32/3358_2.png) [@Bear\_Nenno](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bear_Nenno)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2013, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pentagon-lifts-ban-on-women-in-combat/648156/104 "2013-01-29T01:34:20Z")
This really hasn’t changed anything. The Pentagon has just shifted the burden of justification for excluding women from certain jobs down to the individual branches. Each branch must come up with their own reasons for exclusion. But now, instead of just saying, “Women are not serving in the infantry because there is a ban on women in front-line combat,” they are being forced to explain that “women are not allowed in the infantry because of x, y, z.” All this decision does is change the justification for the ban from presumption to exception. As long as the individual branches can come up with an x, y, and z, there will be no change. It will just be that instead of women not serving because of a ban, they will be not serving because of an exception to policy. If the branches cannot come up with proper reasons in three years, then the ban will be effectively lifted. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2013, 3:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pentagon-lifts-ban-on-women-in-combat/648156/105 "2013-01-29T03:45:19Z")
> [@stpauler](#): > > I’m fascinated by how equal rights means “political correctness”. Truly, truly fascinated. When it isn’t [“Cultural Marxism.”](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=617657) ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2013, 4:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pentagon-lifts-ban-on-women-in-combat/648156/106 "2013-01-29T04:37:19Z")
> [@Doggo](#): > > but has anyone in authority asked the front line soldiers if THEY think it’s OK? And should they have been asked about letting black soldiers serve? ---
**Author:** ![SpoilerVirgin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/4491bb/32.png) [@SpoilerVirgin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SpoilerVirgin)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2013, 5:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pentagon-lifts-ban-on-women-in-combat/648156/107 "2013-01-29T05:55:58Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > And should they have been asked about letting black soldiers serve? I don’t know about blacks or women, but they definitely polled soldiers about whether gays should be allowed to serve. It was a major part of the decision and received a ton of [publicity](http://content.usatoday.com/communities/ondeadline/post/2010/10/pentagon-poll-most-us-troops-are-ok-with-gays-in-military-/1). > [@](#): > > A 103-question survey on the issue was sent to about 400,000 active-duty and Reserve forces and another 150,000 to family members as part of a year-long study ordered in February by Defense Secretary Robert Gates. > > The study asked, among other things, whether the troops had ever shared a room or the showers with gay peers, and how they might act if a gay servicemember lived with a same-sex partner on base… ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2013, 8:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pentagon-lifts-ban-on-women-in-combat/648156/108 "2013-01-29T08:27:06Z")
> [@](#): > > The study asked, among other things, whether the troops had ever shared a room or the showers with gay peers . . . From the halls of Montezuma To the shores of Tripoli I have fought my country’s battles I have faced every enemy \ But please Please Please please please please please Don’t make me shower with a fairy Not a fairy – fairies scare me Cause a fairy might look at my weewee My weewee – it’s so teeny – [Fred Small](http://www.jg.org/folk/artists/fredsmall/everything.possible.lyrics.html) ---
**Author:** ![aruvqan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aruvqan/32/2891_2.png) [@aruvqan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aruvqan)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2013, 11:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pentagon-lifts-ban-on-women-in-combat/648156/109 "2013-01-29T11:36:41Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > Imagine another battle like the [Chosin Reservoir](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Chosin_Reservoir). Where 67,000 Chinese troops surprised and encircled our troops. A 17 day battle in sub zero temperatures. Our guys had to fight their way out of that trap. That’s a real war. Up close, hand to hand killing. I just hope our politically correct troops in the future are ready. Sooner or later we may be in for a really nasty surprise. > . As opposed to the tropical lovefest that the 800 000 soviet females went to in [WW2](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_women_in_World_War_II)? :dubious: Look, women are hardier than you seem to think we little blossoms are. [To be blunt, I seriously doubt a man could tolerate the physical changes, pain and horrible side effects and after effects pregnancy and birth happen to be for many women. I know most men couldn’t deal with monthly menstruation. Men turn into freaking wusses with a silly head cold.] For the length of human time women have had to deal with the same shit men did, with less body mass and a lower center of gravity. We survived being hunter-gatherers, agricultural workers when farming kicked in - hell, women used to pull plows when there wasn’t a draft animal around. Women had to do all the same shit while being pregnant, and frequently while tending one or more children in the lack of a grandparent type female around to babysit. Look at how many recreational hissy fits are posted on the Dope alone about articles showing women walking behind some man hauling all the luggage in Africa or southeast Asia … or up to her ass in a rice paddy manually planting acres of rice toting a baby on her back and surrounded with kids. Women not doing well in combat? Big meh. Women will do just fine if slacker men will leave them alone to get on with it. The women who want to go combat will do so, and the women who don’t will volunteer for MOS that don’t involve combat. ---
**Author:** ![aruvqan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aruvqan/32/2891_2.png) [@aruvqan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aruvqan)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2013, 11:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pentagon-lifts-ban-on-women-in-combat/648156/110 "2013-01-29T11:45:41Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > Exhaustion. Put a 70 lb pack on a woman soldier, have her march with the men for 60 miles. Then go into battle for 8 days and spend her sleepless nights getting shelled. Exhaustion will slow down her reflexes and the chances of getting killed go way up. Guys get tired too, but even the smallest edge in stamina may keep them alive. > > Everyone assumes the days of the real infantry are over. That our troops can drive to the battlefield and get dropped off. If things get bad then close air support will blast the enemy. The battle ends after only a day or two. > > But what happens if we have to fight a professional army? One that may be more fit and better trained than us? multiple kids under 5 years old, no man around the house, having to run the house, run the farm, and do all this with little sleep for years on end… You do not do long pack marches with full TA50 any more, it is considered inhuman in the modern army. If you do a prolonged foot patrol, you use 30 pound packs with a minimum of excess gear. Try talking to the guys on the board like Bear Nenno again. You try putting a guy of any size into body armor, 70 pound packs and march them for more than 10 miles, there would be bodies fallen out along the road. We use APCs and helicopters to move any great distance now. ---
**Author:** ![aruvqan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aruvqan/32/2891_2.png) [@aruvqan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aruvqan)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2013, 11:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pentagon-lifts-ban-on-women-in-combat/648156/111 "2013-01-29T11:53:18Z")
> [@Doggo](#): > > It a political imperative, so if insufficient women pas the tests, they will be altered to allow more women to pass. > The brown stuff will hit the fan if soldiers die because a female can’t do the job under fire. > > I’m interested to know if barracks and toilets are now to be desegregated. In a fox hole, there isn’t space to have a seperate screened off corner to have a bog. > > I’m also interested to know how the combat soldier is going to deal with periods in the field. > > Lastly, now “equality” has arrived, will women be required to have short haircuts and give up ear rings, or will males be allowed long hair. We will deal with periods by going on the pill without the nonmedicated week to bleed. Same as many backpackers do. Also if your body fat drops down below a certain level you stop naturally, and as far as the nonsegregated bog, in combat it really doesn’t matter, hell, my dad crapped and pissed in his pants in combat, you didn’t drop trou if it wasn’t safe. I personally really don’t care who is around me, I have spent too much quality hospital time with no privacy, I could drop trou and crap in the middle of Grand Central Station if I really needed to [and it wouldn’t get me arrested.] I am sure if you are in a trench somewhere and were worried, you could be paired with a battle buddy of the same gender…:rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![aruvqan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aruvqan/32/2891_2.png) [@aruvqan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aruvqan)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2013, 12:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pentagon-lifts-ban-on-women-in-combat/648156/112 "2013-01-29T12:07:57Z")
> [@Doggo](#): > > Da\_n right I don’t want to find out about the intricacies of women’s periods; what do you think I am, a girly boy? > All I want to know is how they deal with it on patrol up country a hundred miles from the shops with no resupply for a month, and everything they possess is soaked through for a week. > I can just imagine the Chindits sending out an emergency call for a pill resupply, LOL. > > BTW, there is a difference between having a bog and a period, despite what some on here have claimed. After we men finished, we don’t keep leaking all day- dunno about wimmin. Carry 2 diva cups, one in and one in a zippy bag ready to insert - in a normal woman they can go for 8 to 12 hours between servicings. Carry toilet paper. Hormonal birth control pills are damned small, I can carry a 90 day supply of norethindrone [total suppression of menses] in something the size of a film cannister. In something like a normal small pill bottle I could probably manage strips of 7 pills in blisterpack if it was deliberately kept small. I would imagine you could even do something like a custom norplant that is implanted with some total supressive medication. With the diva cups, norethindrone and so forth everything I would need for 3 months of menstruation with birth control to prevent pregnancy or suppression fit into something like a [shotgun shell ammo pouch](http://www.maxpedition.com/store/pc/catalog/1434g3_590_detail.jpg). I could even throw in an emergency diva cup just to make sure. ---
**Author:** ![raindog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@raindog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raindog)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2013, 12:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pentagon-lifts-ban-on-women-in-combat/648156/113 "2013-01-29T12:37:21Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Given what you’ve already said here, what does that matter? > > You understand that more than 100 female soldiers have died in Iraq and a few dozen more have died in Afghanistan, right? There are already women in body bags. Do you have some kind of actual reason to think female soldiers will be more likely to die? _C’mon Marley23!_ A hundred dead women soldiers vs several thousand dead male soldiers. Put an equal number of women in the exact same situations as the men and they won’t die in similar numbers. They’ll die in greater numbers. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2013, 12:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pentagon-lifts-ban-on-women-in-combat/648156/114 "2013-01-29T12:48:39Z")
> [@raindog](#): > > _C’mon Marley23!_ > > A hundred dead women soldiers vs several thousand dead male soldiers. > > Put an equal number of women in the exact same situations as the men and they won’t die in similar numbers. They’ll die in greater numbers. Your argument is “C’mon!”? Are you [Peter Griffin](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zeRQD0tK8h0)? Have you got anything more substantial? ---
**Author:** ![raindog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@raindog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raindog)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2013, 12:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pentagon-lifts-ban-on-women-in-combat/648156/115 "2013-01-29T12:53:09Z")
> [@Dogzilla](#): > > Serena was beaten by a guy when she was 15, which may be why she ducks the question. I still don’t think you can say definitively that she couldn’t _ever_. This couple post exchange is _outrageous._ We should make professional tennis co-ed in the name of equality because it is possible that in the thousands of times the top female players would play the top male players _in the world_ there is at least a _slight chance_ that a female \*might \*win on any given day. (although everyone knows it would be exceptionally unlikely) I can see your logic. Integrate tennis. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2013, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pentagon-lifts-ban-on-women-in-combat/648156/116 "2013-01-29T14:59:03Z")
> [@raindog](#): > > _C’mon Marley23!_ > > A hundred dead women soldiers vs several thousand dead male soldiers. > > Put an equal number of women in the exact same situations as the men and they won’t die in similar numbers. They’ll die in greater numbers. “C’mon” isn’t a cite. ---
**Author:** ![Doggo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/87869e/32.png) [@Doggo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doggo)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2013, 12:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pentagon-lifts-ban-on-women-in-combat/648156/117 "2013-01-31T12:22:25Z")
> [@aruvqan](#): > > Carry 2 diva cups, one in and one in a zippy bag ready to insert - in a normal woman they can go for 8 to 12 hours between servicings. Carry toilet paper. Hormonal birth control pills are damned small, I can carry a 90 day supply of norethindrone [total suppression of menses] in something the size of a film cannister. In something like a normal small pill bottle I could probably manage strips of 7 pills in blisterpack if it was deliberately kept small. I would imagine you could even do something like a custom norplant that is implanted with some total supressive medication. With the diva cups, norethindrone and so forth everything I would need for 3 months of menstruation with birth control to prevent pregnancy or suppression fit into something like a [shotgun shell ammo pouch](http://www.maxpedition.com/store/pc/catalog/1434g3_590_detail.jpg). I could even throw in an emergency diva cup just to make sure. Thank you for being the first to answer my question in a way I can understand, and without throwing a hissy fit. ---
**Author:** ![Doggo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/87869e/32.png) [@Doggo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doggo)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2013, 12:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pentagon-lifts-ban-on-women-in-combat/648156/118 "2013-01-31T12:27:20Z")
> [@JRDelirious](#): > > Lovely sentiment, but you know that is no way to run an army. > > As long as standards are not relaxed to artificially enable a certain percentage of female Combat Arms troops, let whoever can handle it, handle it; let whoever washes out, wash out. I just hope that they don’t just let women fill up all the “easy” combat jobs, and expect men to fill all the really dangerous positions. When women take the lead on a patrol when snipers are expected, I’ll accept that women are doing an equal job with the men. ---
**Author:** ![Doggo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/87869e/32.png) [@Doggo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doggo)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2013, 12:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pentagon-lifts-ban-on-women-in-combat/648156/119 "2013-01-31T12:31:54Z")
> [@aruvqan](#): > > multiple kids under 5 years old, no man around the house, having to run the house, run the farm, and do all this with little sleep for years on end… > > You do not do long pack marches with full TA50 any more, it is considered inhuman in the modern army. If you do a prolonged foot patrol, you use 30 pound packs with a minimum of excess gear. Try talking to the guys on the board like Bear Nenno again. > > You try putting a guy of any size into body armor, 70 pound packs and march them for more than 10 miles, there would be bodies fallen out along the road. We use APCs and helicopters to move any great distance now. Sorry, but in a war, things can’t always be controlled like that. Think the Falkland campaign when helicopters weren’t available and the marines had to carry everything for long distances. Pack limits would have been laughable. Just because it was like that in Iraq, it doesn’t mean all wars will be like that in future. ---
**Author:** ![Doggo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/87869e/32.png) [@Doggo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doggo)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2013, 12:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pentagon-lifts-ban-on-women-in-combat/648156/120 "2013-01-31T12:39:06Z")
> [@aruvqan](#): > > As opposed to the tropical lovefest that the 800 000 soviet females went to in [WW2](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_women_in_World_War_II)? :dubious: > > Look, women are hardier than you seem to think we little blossoms are. [To be blunt, I seriously doubt a man could tolerate the physical changes, pain and horrible side effects and after effects pregnancy and birth happen to be for many women. I know most men couldn’t deal with monthly menstruation. Men turn into freaking wusses with a silly head cold.] For the length of human time women have had to deal with the same shit men did, with less body mass and a lower center of gravity. We survived being hunter-gatherers, agricultural workers when farming kicked in - hell, women used to pull plows when there wasn’t a draft animal around. Women had to do all the same shit while being pregnant, and frequently while tending one or more children in the lack of a grandparent type female around to babysit. > > Look at how many recreational hissy fits are posted on the Dope alone about articles showing women walking behind some man hauling all the luggage in Africa or southeast Asia … or up to her ass in a rice paddy manually planting acres of rice toting a baby on her back and surrounded with kids. > > Women not doing well in combat? Big meh. Women will do just fine if slacker men will leave them alone to get on with it. The women who want to go combat will do so, and the women who don’t will volunteer for MOS that don’t involve combat. \ Seriously! When was the last time women in America pulled a plow, and we are talking about women in America, not in Africa or Asia. Somehow, I doubt the average modern American woman could plant an acre of rice without giving up, and I don’t see the relevance to combat anyway. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pentagon-lifts-ban-on-women-in-combat/648156.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pentagon-lifts-ban-on-women-in-combat/648156.md?page=7)