# Pentagon/OSP manipulated intelligence to link Hussein to al-Qaeda
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pentagon-osp-manipulated-intelligence-to-link-hussein-to-al-qaeda/391582
**Category:** Great Debates
**Created:** [February 10, 2007, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pentagon-osp-manipulated-intelligence-to-link-hussein-to-al-qaeda/391582 "2007-02-10T00:43:59Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 2
### Author:  [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)
#### Post date: [February 10, 2007, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pentagon-osp-manipulated-intelligence-to-link-hussein-to-al-qaeda/391582/21 "2007-02-10T18:48:44Z")
[QUOTE=elucidator]
And yet, he did it anyway.
[/QUOTE]
Right, becuase Congress let him. Note that I was responding specifically to this from JC, as to why he think it might be marginally good to get this story out there again (my emphasis):
> [@](#):
>
> The marginal value I’m seeing to these hearings is to make it more difficult for another set of questionable intelligence reports out of the administration to lead the American people down the path to that military action.
Now, if Congress needs to better inform itself of these facts so it doesn’t repeat the same mistake, then fine. But Americans are smarter than Congress on these matters, it would seem. It never hurts to remind us, but I have no fear that Americans are going to lend support for an attack on Iran-- as the [polls](http://www.pollingreport.com/iran.htm) show.
Anyway, it’s old news and the newspapers seem to be treating it as such. It wasn’t on the front page of my paper-- I think it made page 17 or something like that.
---
### Author:  [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)
#### Post date: [February 10, 2007, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pentagon-osp-manipulated-intelligence-to-link-hussein-to-al-qaeda/391582/22 "2007-02-10T18:54:06Z")
With all due awe, **John** , I repeat: if he didn’t listen then, what makes you think he’ll listen now?
---
### Author:  [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)
#### Post date: [February 10, 2007, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pentagon-osp-manipulated-intelligence-to-link-hussein-to-al-qaeda/391582/23 "2007-02-10T18:58:26Z")
[QUOTE=John Mace]
I’m surprised you’re falling for that canard. We’re not going to war with Iran.
[/QUOTE]
Oh, I’m sure when it comes down to it, we won’t because we can’t. (Could have in 2002, just maybe, but now we done shot our bolt.) But if the Admin doesn’t **want** to, why does the [Iran Directorate](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=407841) exist?
---
### Author:  [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)
#### Post date: [February 10, 2007, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pentagon-osp-manipulated-intelligence-to-link-hussein-to-al-qaeda/391582/24 "2007-02-10T19:01:47Z")
[QUOTE=bluethree]
Oh, absolutely. It certainly is the Democrats fault that we got into this war. Good on you for pointing that out. Wrong-thinking people might think that the blame lies with the Republicans and the administration in power.
[/QUOTE]
The Dems voted as well.
They share responsibility. They abdicated their responsibility because they were afraid of appearing “soft on terror.” Their quest for political expediency is partly to blame.
Parties and branches are supposed to check and balance one another. It did not happen.
The decision to go to war was made an integral part of the 2002 mid-term campaigns.
Perhaps the WH has come to regret their 2002 decision “to inject a major decision about this war in the final days of a campaign”
'Cause more recently GWB said said:
```
"And the reason why is [I didn't want to inject a major decision about this war in the final days of a campaign](http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2006/11/20061108-2.html)."
```
---
### Author:  [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)
#### Post date: [February 10, 2007, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pentagon-osp-manipulated-intelligence-to-link-hussein-to-al-qaeda/391582/25 "2007-02-10T19:24:12Z")
[QUOTE=PatriotX]
Who authorized the OSP to show “senior decision makers” “alternative intelligence assessments on the Iraq and al-Qaida relationship” as though they were products of the intelligence community?
[/QUOTE]
That’d be [Wolfowitz](http://mwcnews.net/content/view/12471/195/)
> [@](#):
>
> Paul Wolfowitz, the former deputy defence secretary, authorised Feith to pursue alternative intelligence conclusions telling him the action was lawful, Gimble concluded.
It appears that Feith and friends may have ignored the congressional notification provisions of section 504 of the [National Security Act of 1947](http://www.opednews.com/articles/opedne_david_sw_070209_feith_based_intellig.htm). The [Chair of the Senate Intelligence Committee](http://www.opednews.com/articles/opedne_david_sw_070209_feith_based_intellig.htm) is looking into whether something needs to be done about that.
**John** , could you come up some later data to support your assertion that the American people were not fooled by this intelligence nonsense? Your poll of Oct. 7, 2002 comes from a time when the product had barely been [rolled out](http://archives.cnn.com/2002/ALLPOLITICS/09/12/schneider.iraq/). How about presenting something from March 2003, or at least _after_ Powell’s UN speech. It takes time for faked up intelligence to work its way into the public perception, and your early poll data doesn’t allow for that.
---
### Author:  [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)
#### Post date: [February 10, 2007, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pentagon-osp-manipulated-intelligence-to-link-hussein-to-al-qaeda/391582/26 "2007-02-10T20:25:04Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton]
Oh, I’m sure when it comes down to it, we won’t because we can’t.
[/QUOTE]
[OTOH . . .](http://www.guardian.co.uk/iran/story/0,,2010086,00.html)
(No, **John,** I’m not ready to take that bet yet – but how long are you holding it open?)
---
### Author:  [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)
#### Post date: [February 10, 2007, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pentagon-osp-manipulated-intelligence-to-link-hussein-to-al-qaeda/391582/27 "2007-02-10T22:21:26Z")
[QUOTE=elucidator]
With all due awe, **John** , I repeat: if he didn’t listen then, what makes you think he’ll listen now?
[/QUOTE]
Didn’t listen to whom? He didn’t have to worry about listening to Congress last time because \*\*they were falling over themselves to agree with him. \*\* So, like I said, if Congress needs to be reminded of their responsibility to listen to us, then I’m all for it. But we don’t need to be reminded of anything.
---
### Author:  [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)
#### Post date: [February 10, 2007, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pentagon-osp-manipulated-intelligence-to-link-hussein-to-al-qaeda/391582/28 "2007-02-10T22:49:12Z")
[QUOTE=John Mace]
we don’t need to be reminded of anything.
[/QUOTE]
You still haven’t backed up your assertion that America wasn’t “buying the link to terrorism and they weren’t buying the WMD talk” with anything besides a poll taken at an irrelevant time.
---
### Author:  [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)
#### Post date: [February 10, 2007, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pentagon-osp-manipulated-intelligence-to-link-hussein-to-al-qaeda/391582/29 "2007-02-10T23:12:25Z")
[QUOTE=Squink]
You still haven’t backed up your assertion that America wasn’t “buying the link to terrorism and they weren’t buying the WMD talk” with anything besides a poll taken at an irrelevant time.
[/QUOTE]
What? How else can I back up what the American people think other than using poll data? And why is that time irrelevant-- I purposely chose the time immediately before the AUMF vote to point out that Congress was out of sync with the American people. They should have made Bush’s use of force contingent on getting UNSC approval. Americans did not buy the assertion that Iraq was a threat to US, but Congress did. Americans didn’t think invading Iraq would make us safer from terrorism, but Congress did.
---
### Author:  [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)
#### Post date: [February 10, 2007, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pentagon-osp-manipulated-intelligence-to-link-hussein-to-al-qaeda/391582/30 "2007-02-10T23:22:42Z")
Of course, at that time, Congress had been steeped in dubious intelligence, and America hadn’t. Say what you will about congress, but if you want to demonstrate how savvy the American public is, you need to show some data from a time _after_ they were exposed to the contagion.
---
### Author:  [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)
#### Post date: [February 10, 2007, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pentagon-osp-manipulated-intelligence-to-link-hussein-to-al-qaeda/391582/31 "2007-02-10T23:57:08Z")
But John, you should know that it’s not the moment of action that counts for the people. The authorization was important but if they hadn’t worked the marketing angle, if for example, say [77% of the American people believe that the Iraq War was a good idea](http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A857-2003Nov4?language=printer)
> [@](#):
>
> _From The Washington Post_ The public’s decoupling of Iraq from the war on terrorism is ominous for Bush, because the high marks he has received for fighting terrorism have helped to hold together support for the actions in Iraq, several polling analysts suggested. In April, 77 percent of Americans believed the war in Iraq was part of the war against terrorism, but this number slipped to 66 percent in September and to 61 percent last week, when the latest poll was conducted. At the same time, Americans’ approval of the situation in Iraq has dropped to 47 percent from 50 percent in September and 75 percent in April.
While the linked story shows a _declining_ support for the war it also shows that during the critical ‘GO’ period the administration had managed to get the public behind the concept of the war.
In effect, John, this is **marketing** as politics.
1. Get Congress on board with manipulated intel and political posturing.
2. Use that to pre-sell the idea of the war.
3. Use intel and Powell to create the war support in the public.
4. Go to war then declare “we have to stay or we lose”.
And, while I agree that a full scale war with Iran would be a foolish act it’s clear to me that, at this point, the administration would certianly _like_ a confrontation with Iran and is taking the steps to pre-sell such an event should the opportunity arise.
Toss in the fact that [Vladimir Putin](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/02/10/AR2007021000524.html) is now posturing in support of Iran, at least in a small way, while decrying the administrations actions in Iraq and this one is a much more difficult sell.
But don’t fool yourself that they don’t want to. And don’t believe that deft marketing can’t make the American public believe black is white. Lord knows we go through that every election cycle when fairly ordinary men are hailed as heroes and patriots/
---
### Author:  [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)
#### Post date: [February 11, 2007, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pentagon-osp-manipulated-intelligence-to-link-hussein-to-al-qaeda/391582/32 "2007-02-11T00:11:10Z")
[QUOTE=Jonathan Chance]
But John, you should know that it’s not the moment of action that counts for the people. The authorization was important but if they hadn’t worked the marketing angle, if for example, say [77% of the American people believe that the Iraq War was a good idea](http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A857-2003Nov4?language=printer)
[/quote]
Yes, after an invasion, there is a natural tendency to rally around the president.
> [@](#):
>
> While the linked story shows a _declining_ support for the war it also shows that during the critical ‘GO’ period the administration had managed to get the public behind the concept of the war.
>
> In effect, John, this is **marketing** as politics.
>
> 1. Get Congress on board with manipulated intel and political posturing.
> 2. Use that to pre-sell the idea of the war.
> 3. Use intel and Powell to create the war support in the public.
> 4. Go to war then declare “we have to stay or we lose”.
So, we nip this in the bud at step one, which is what I’ve been saying throughout this thread. I see no evidence that Congress is getting behind an invasion of Iran.
> [@](#):
>
> And, while I agree that a full scale war with Iran would be a foolish act it’s clear to me that, at this point, the administration would certianly _like_ a confrontation with Iran and is taking the steps to pre-sell such an event should the opportunity arise.
Could be. What do you think the odds are that they will be able to pre-sell that to Congress? I’d put it about ZERO. If Bush wants to make some air strikes, he’s going to do that with or without permission from Congress, just as all the other recent presidents have done. And nothing Congress does is going to stop him.
> [@](#):
>
> But don’t fool yourself that they don’t want to. And don’t believe that deft marketing can’t make the American public believe black is white. Lord knows we go through that every election cycle when fairly ordinary men are hailed as heroes and patriots/
I’m not fooling myself about anything. If Bush wants to make some air attacks against Iran, he’s going to do it. He doesn’t need Congress on board for that. If he wants to invade Iran, he does needs Congress to approve, and they are not going to do that.
---
### Author:  [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)
#### Post date: [February 11, 2007, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pentagon-osp-manipulated-intelligence-to-link-hussein-to-al-qaeda/391582/33 "2007-02-11T13:46:57Z")
I see. So if GeeDuh merely wants to snap off a few air raids, sort of bitch-slap Iran around a bit, he doesn’t need approval, but if he wants to _invade_ Iran, and do something really pretty serious, he does. Well, that’s certainly a relief. Gotta admit, for a second there, I was a bit worried.
---
### Author:  [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)
#### Post date: [February 11, 2007, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pentagon-osp-manipulated-intelligence-to-link-hussein-to-al-qaeda/391582/34 "2007-02-11T17:34:49Z")
[QUOTE=elucidator]
I see. So if GeeDuh merely wants to snap off a few air raids, sort of bitch-slap Iran around a bit, he doesn’t need approval, but if he wants to _invade_ Iran, and do something really pretty serious, he does. Well, that’s certainly a relief. Gotta admit, for a second there, I was a bit worried.
[/QUOTE]
Hey, I’m merely stating the facts as I see them. If you have evidence that my facts are incorrect, then I’d love to hear it. You can “worry” all you want, but that doesn’t change the facts.
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### Author:  [@Quiddity\_Glomfuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quiddity_Glomfuster)
#### Post date: [February 11, 2007, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pentagon-osp-manipulated-intelligence-to-link-hussein-to-al-qaeda/391582/35 "2007-02-11T17:39:22Z")
[QUOTE=PatriotX]
The Dems voted as well.
[/QUOTE]
Yeah because, morons that they were, they thought they could trust the President!
Idiots! Thank heavens they’ll never again be stupid enough to trust a Republican in that office.
---
### Author:  [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)
#### Post date: [February 11, 2007, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pentagon-osp-manipulated-intelligence-to-link-hussein-to-al-qaeda/391582/36 "2007-02-11T19:05:41Z")
[QUOTE=Quiddity Glomfuster]
Yeah because, morons that they were, they thought they could trust the President!
Idiots! Thank heavens they’ll never again be stupid enough to trust a Republican in that office.
[/QUOTE]
It’s not their job as congresscritters to trust the PotUSA. It’s their job to check and balance him.
---
### Author:  [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)
#### Post date: [February 11, 2007, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pentagon-osp-manipulated-intelligence-to-link-hussein-to-al-qaeda/391582/37 "2007-02-11T19:22:37Z")
[QUOTE=John Mace]
Hey, I’m merely stating the facts as I see them. If you have evidence that my facts are incorrect, then I’d love to hear it. You can “worry” all you want, but that doesn’t change the facts.
[/QUOTE]
I hope you’re right, and I’m wrong. I hope that in six months, you can resurrect these posts, dance and gambol about, singing “Dummy, dummy, **'luc** , wrong again, I was right, you were wrong, neener neener.”
Nothing could make me happier. I’m a pessimist, **John** , I hate being right.
---
### Author:  [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)
#### Post date: [February 11, 2007, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pentagon-osp-manipulated-intelligence-to-link-hussein-to-al-qaeda/391582/38 "2007-02-11T19:25:48Z")
[http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17086418/site/newsweek/](http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17086418/site/newsweek/)
**Rumors of War**
> [@](#):
>
> …At least one former White House official contends that some Bush advisers secretly want an excuse to attack Iran. “They intend to be as provocative as possible and make the Iranians do something [America] would be forced to retaliate for,” says Hillary Mann, the administration’s former National Security Council director for Iran and Persian Gulf Affairs…With Americans and Iranians jousting on the chaotic battleground of Iraq, the chances of a small incident’s spiraling into a crisis are higher than they’ve been in years…
Offered without comment, as posted to similar/parallel thread.
---
### Author:  [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)
#### Post date: [February 11, 2007, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pentagon-osp-manipulated-intelligence-to-link-hussein-to-al-qaeda/391582/39 "2007-02-11T22:59:58Z")
[QUOTE=elucidator]
I hope you’re right, and I’m wrong. I hope that in six months, you can resurrect these posts, dance and gambol about, singing “Dummy, dummy, **'luc** , wrong again, I was right, you were wrong, neener neener.”
Nothing could make me happier. I’m a pessimist, **John** , I hate being right.
[/QUOTE]
I’m not sure what specifically you’re referring to. I’ve said in many different threads that it wouldn’t surprise me much if Bush lobbed a cruise missile or two at Iran, or ordered a few airstrikes. I don’t think it’s likely, but it isn’t out of the question. But an actual invasion, aimed at “regime change”? Not a chance.
---
### Author:  [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)
#### Post date: [February 11, 2007, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pentagon-osp-manipulated-intelligence-to-link-hussein-to-al-qaeda/391582/40 "2007-02-11T23:26:03Z")
So, we’re talking War Lite, here?
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