# Pentagon squelches release of Iraq torture videos - what's the excuse? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 26, 2005, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pentagon-squelches-release-of-iraq-torture-videos-whats-the-excuse/314285 "2005-07-26T19:59:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2005, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pentagon-squelches-release-of-iraq-torture-videos-whats-the-excuse/314285/1 "2005-07-26T19:59:27Z")
Sneaking in under the radar of our “liberal” media recently is [this doozy:](http://newstandardnews.net/content/index.cfm/items/2142) > [@](#): > > **Pentagon Rejects Order to Release Abu Ghraib Abuse Images** > > Facing a court-imposed deadline to release photographs and video documenting numerous instances of torture and abuse at the now infamous US-run Abu Ghraib detention facility in Iraq, lawyers for the Department of Defense Thursday sent the court a letter stating their intention to file papers explaining why it will not adhere to the judge’s orders, civil liberties groups announced Friday. > > The legal brief explaining the reasoning behind the decision will be sealed, meaning most of the information will not be made public, the letter said. > > People who have seen the videos, including members of Congress and reporter Seymour Hersh, have reported they include **scenes involving far worse abuses** than have so far reached the public, including **rape and lewd acts** committed against and in front of prisoners. Actually, according to Seymour Hersh, the stuff includes [sodomy of young boys and raping of Iraqi women;](http://informationclearinghouse.info/article6492.htm) I guess that falls under “lewd acts.” :dubious: Anyway, as disgusting at this whole mess is, I’m curious as to how the flag-waving Bush apologists (and I _know_ you’re out there) can defend the Defense Department’s squelching of this release. It’s not as if the contents of those photos and videos are a secret; even [Donald Rumsfeld](http://bbs.people.com.cn/bbs/ReadFile?whichfile=98262&typeid=15) admitted to Congress that the stuff documented is “blatantly sadistic, cruel and inhumane.” And it’s not as if supressing them would make the Iraqi insurgency fight with less fervor – I’m pretty sure they already know about the charges, if only from when those sodomized boys and raped women reunite with their families and tell them of the horrors they endured. The only excuse poor ol’ cynical me can come up with is that the Defense Department – and, by extension, Don Rumsfeld and the entire Bush Administration – is squelching this release because they want to keep their mushroom policy going (keep Americans in the dark and feed them bullshit). Bad enough that Bush’s poll numbers are sinking like a rock; if you showed (censored) photos of Americans raping women and sodomizing kids and other “lewd acts” on the 11 o’clock news, they’d be surrounding the White House with pitchforks, flaming torches, and Frankenstein rakes. But then, I’m a “reality-based” “anti-American” cynic :dubious: who refuses to swallow the Faux News line. What’s the spin from the other side of the aisle? Where’s the clean and wholesome innocent enlightened explaination for this? ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2005, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pentagon-squelches-release-of-iraq-torture-videos-whats-the-excuse/314285/2 "2005-07-26T20:14:22Z")
My question would be…why do we the people need to see images of boys and women being raped? I certainly WOULD say those could be considered inappropriate for general public consumption. Its not like the court or the Senate/Congress is denied access to these materials, right? So, since they are supposed to represent us, and in the courts case deal out justice, I fail to see why WE need to see these things. In court cases where there is visual evidence of rape or murder caught on tape we, the public, don’t have access to this material…do we? What about protecting the rights of those who have been violated? -XT ---
**Author:** ![Frostillicus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e9bcb4/32.png) [@Frostillicus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frostillicus)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2005, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pentagon-squelches-release-of-iraq-torture-videos-whats-the-excuse/314285/3 "2005-07-26T20:20:25Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > My question would be…why do we the people need to see images of boys and women being raped? I certainly WOULD say those could be considered inappropriate for general public consumption. Its not like the court or the Senate/Congress is denied access to these materials, right? So, since they are supposed to represent us, and in the courts case deal out justice, I fail to see why WE need to see these things. In court cases where there is visual evidence of rape or murder caught on tape we, the public, don’t have access to this material…do we? What about protecting the rights of those who have been violated? > > -XT The phrase “A picture is worth a thousand words” immediately comes to mind. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2005, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pentagon-squelches-release-of-iraq-torture-videos-whats-the-excuse/314285/4 "2005-07-26T20:23:23Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > My question would be…why do we the people need to see images of boys and women being raped? Doesn’t matter. All that matters is whether or not the people have a right to see them. > [@](#): > > In court cases where there is visual evidence of rape or murder caught on tape we, the public, don’t have access to this material…do we? What about protecting the rights of those who have been violated? Caught on tape by whom? If it’s a private citizen’s tape, then it’s not public, unless it’s enterted into the public record as evidence. In this case, the tapes are government owned, and unless they are classified (for good reason), the public does indeed have a right to see them. If necessary, the faces can be blurred out to protect the innocent. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2005, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pentagon-squelches-release-of-iraq-torture-videos-whats-the-excuse/314285/5 "2005-07-26T20:26:24Z")
> [@Frostillicus](#): > > The phrase “A picture is worth a thousand words” immediately comes to mind. So, you consider it perfectly acceptable to release graphic pictures to the general public of actual rape and torture? Do you equally think its acceptable to release such pictures in a criminal case in the US? A serial killer/rapist video tapes his rapes/murders…is that acceptable to release to the public? If not, why is this different? To my mind you are covering up if the pictures/video tape isn’t made available to the courts for the trial, or to our representatives in the Senate and in Congress. Withholding graphic images from the public seems more along the lines of trying to not further infringe on the rights of those people who have already been abused. YMMV, and as I’m not a lawyer maybe I’m wrong anyway and graphic images of rape or murder are released to the public in normal criminal cases. -XT ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2005, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pentagon-squelches-release-of-iraq-torture-videos-whats-the-excuse/314285/6 "2005-07-26T20:26:25Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > My question would be…why do we the people need to see images of boys and women being raped? I certainly WOULD say those could be considered inappropriate for general public consumption. I share your personal feelings of distaste, and I sure wouldn’t want to look at photos like that even if they were released. (Hell, I’ve never yet looked at any images of the Twin Towers falling down or people jumping out of them, not in the nearly four years since 9/11. I know what horrible things happened then. I don’t need to goggle at actual pictures of it.) However, this isn’t about “appropriateness for general public consumption”. This is about an official Freedom of Information Act request filed by civil liberties and humanitarian groups. (And I think it’s pretty reasonable that such groups should have access to documentary evidence of the atrocities that it’s their job to protest and condemn.) The request was legitimate and made in compliance with the law, and a court has ordered the Defense Department to comply with the law by releasing the documents. Can anybody offer a rational explanation of why the DoD should be able to hold itself above the law in this matter? ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2005, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pentagon-squelches-release-of-iraq-torture-videos-whats-the-excuse/314285/7 "2005-07-26T20:30:34Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > Caught on tape by whom? If it’s a private citizen’s tape, then it’s not public, unless it’s enterted into the public record as evidence. In this case, the tapes are government owned, and unless they are classified (for good reason), the public does indeed have a right to see them. If necessary, the faces can be blurred out to protect the innocent. I thought a lot of this video we were talking was captured by private soldiers with their own equipment. And what about images inadvertantly caught by survelance cameras and the like in a general trial? Are those images available to the general public too? > [@Kimstu](#): > > The request was legitimate and made in compliance with the law, and a court has ordered the Defense Department to comply with the law by releasing the documents. Can anybody offer a rational explanation of why the DoD should be able to hold itself above the law in this matter? No…I guess I’m just wrong. It just seems so…I don’t know. I certainly want to see those responsible punished to the full extent of the law, but I just don’t see why the graphic images need to be public. But maybe I’m just a prude or something. -XT ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2005, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pentagon-squelches-release-of-iraq-torture-videos-whats-the-excuse/314285/8 "2005-07-26T20:33:23Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > I thought a lot of this video we were talking was captured by private soldiers with their own equipment. While they’re on duty in the US military. Doesn’t cut it. But also, if they’re entered as evidence in a trial, I believe they do need to be available to the public. ---
**Author:** ![Revtim](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/revtim/32/1042_2.png) [@Revtim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revtim)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2005, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pentagon-squelches-release-of-iraq-torture-videos-whats-the-excuse/314285/9 "2005-07-26T20:37:45Z")
I feel this material needs to be released, because I suspect most people do not really know the extent of what happened here. I’ve argued with at least one idiot who thinks the worst of the abuses was Lindy pointing at a guy’s 'nads. I know my Mom never even heard of Hersh’s accusations. The privacy of the victims is a good point, though. Perhaps the eyes and/or faces can be blurred out. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2005, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pentagon-squelches-release-of-iraq-torture-videos-whats-the-excuse/314285/10 "2005-07-26T20:40:31Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > So, you consider it perfectly acceptable to release graphic pictures to the general public of actual rape and torture? We have already seen [graphic images of prisoners being tortured in Abu Ghraib](http://www.antiwar.com/news/?articleid=2444). (And even with parts of those images pixillated out, I’m still totally grossed out by them and wourld prefer not to have seen them.) Give me a good reason why the level of brutality of the torture shown in the image should affect whether or not the public has a right to see it. > [@xtisme](#): > > I guess I’m just wrong. It just seems so…I don’t know. I certainly want to see those responsible punished to the full extent of the law, but I just don’t see why the graphic images need to be public. I wish all of them didn’t even exist, believe me. I wish the events that they documented had never happened. However, given a situation where such an event **does** happen, which would you honestly prefer? 1. The evidence is made publicly available, shaming and disgusting us all and outraging the rest of the world, but at least we know what the facts are. 2. The government suppresses as much evidence as it can and attempts to deny as much as it can of what happened. Full public disclosure has revolting and possibly horrific consequences in a case like this, but I’m afraid I simply don’t trust anything less to provide an adequate deterrent to this kind of atrocity. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2005, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pentagon-squelches-release-of-iraq-torture-videos-whats-the-excuse/314285/11 "2005-07-26T20:41:36Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > No…I guess I’m just wrong. It just seems so…I don’t know. I certainly want to see those responsible punished to the full extent of the law, but I just don’t see why the graphic images need to be public. Because the court ordered them to. End of story. Or do you see the Bush White House as above the law? ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2005, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pentagon-squelches-release-of-iraq-torture-videos-whats-the-excuse/314285/12 "2005-07-26T20:43:40Z")
No, you guys are probably right. I guess I’m just squimish about the though of actual rapes of young boys and women being shown to the general public…as well as actual torture scenes and perhaps murders (I don’t really know the extent of the images we are talking about here…which is kind of all of your points I’m sure). I’ll bow out now having shown what an old prude I am to everyone… -XT ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2005, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pentagon-squelches-release-of-iraq-torture-videos-whats-the-excuse/314285/13 "2005-07-26T20:46:48Z")
> [@Revtim](#): > > The privacy of the victims is a good point, though. Perhaps the eyes and/or faces can be blurred out. And the privacy and presumed innocence of the alleged perpetrators are important too. I don’t have a problem with individual identities being blurred out in the documents that are publicly released (as opposed to those that are being scrutinized by a trial jury or something). Nor do I mind blurring out the details of genitals and so forth. But I do think that the basic information about the acts that the images convey shouldn’t be hidden from the people who legally request to see it. ---
**Author:** ![Revtim](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/revtim/32/1042_2.png) [@Revtim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revtim)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2005, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pentagon-squelches-release-of-iraq-torture-videos-whats-the-excuse/314285/14 "2005-07-26T20:48:07Z")
Good point **Kimstu**. ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2005, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pentagon-squelches-release-of-iraq-torture-videos-whats-the-excuse/314285/15 "2005-07-26T20:52:22Z")
Now do you see why some of us “lefties” are so worked up about this Damn Fool War? [i}Flashback time:\* “This is no different than what happens at the Skull and Bones initiation and we’re going to ruin people’s lives over it and we’re going to hamper our military effort, and then we are going to really hammer them because they had a good time. You know, these people are being fired at every day. I’m talking about people having a good time, these people, you ever heard of emotional release? You ever heard of need to blow some steam off?” – Rush Limbaugh, May 4, 2004 ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2005, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pentagon-squelches-release-of-iraq-torture-videos-whats-the-excuse/314285/16 "2005-07-26T20:58:36Z")
> [@rjung](#): > > Now do you see why some of us “lefties” are so worked up about this Damn Fool War? _[hijack]_ Google the phrase “damn fool war” and see what the first hit is. He should trademark it! _[/hijack]_ ---
**Author:** ![DMC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dmc/32/18049_2.png) [@DMC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DMC)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2005, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pentagon-squelches-release-of-iraq-torture-videos-whats-the-excuse/314285/17 "2005-07-26T21:25:00Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > No, you guys are probably right. I guess I’m just squimish about the though of actual rapes of young boys and women being shown to the general public…as well as actual torture scenes and perhaps murders (I don’t really know the extent of the images we are talking about here…which is kind of all of your points I’m sure). You’re probably no more squeamish than many of us here. I know that I have no desire to actually see them. On the other hand, I do have the desire to have them seen by those parties whose job it is is to inform us of what is going on over there, along with any other citizen who has the desire to see them firsthand. While I’d like for that party to be my government, they don’t seem to be nearly as forthcoming as I’d like, so it should be made available to the other parties who are willing to let us know what some representatives of our government are doing in our name. Our government has thus far in this mess reminded me of a cheating spouse who knows they are caught, but doesn’t know how much their spouse knows. They keep slowly admitting things, but only when they are pretty sure that the spouse already knows what they are admitting, keeping everything else under wraps as long as possible. I want our citizens to know what happens during war, even if some of the atrocities are on a small scale (although apparently not as small as we were led to believe originally). Gulf War I is mainly remembered for video of smartbombs exploding with perfect precision on whatever target they were supposedly aimed at. That allows us to distance ourselves greatly from what really goes on on the ground, and things like these videos bring that home again. Perhaps we’ll someday lose our taste for war, and actually save it for times when it’s truly needed. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2005, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pentagon-squelches-release-of-iraq-torture-videos-whats-the-excuse/314285/18 "2005-07-26T21:37:03Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > I’ll bow out now having shown what an old prude I am to everyone… > > -XT Move over. If you’re an old prude about this, then so am I. (And I am, in the arena of consensual and adult, a libertine!) Seriously…I understand why they’re being released and I very much wish the human rights organizations to have them available for study and evidence. I understand that they’re useful for educating the public as to what was actually done at Abu Ghraib. It still squicks me out no end, though, that the government is being forced to release videotape of actual rape. It squicks me out first that it happened in the first place, and it squicks me out second that it’s being released to the public. ---
**Author:** ![bizzwire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/958977/32.png) [@bizzwire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bizzwire)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2005, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pentagon-squelches-release-of-iraq-torture-videos-whats-the-excuse/314285/19 "2005-07-26T22:33:36Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > So, you consider it perfectly acceptable to release graphic pictures to the general public of actual rape and torture? Do you equally think its acceptable to release such pictures in a criminal case in the US? > -XT Nice try, but rape and torture of one individual upon another is a criminal affair. Rape and torture by members of the United States armed forces is a whole other matter entirely. I seem to recall watching the “Body Count” on the nightly news during Vietnam. It’s acceptable to flaunt the number of enemy we’ve killed, evidently, but God forbid the American public should tally the number of innocents sodomized by their troops? Why ever would we want or need to know that? (Hint: the answer is called “accountability,” and is generally considered a basic tenet of Democracy.) ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2005, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pentagon-squelches-release-of-iraq-torture-videos-whats-the-excuse/314285/20 "2005-07-26T22:39:25Z")
> [@rjung](#): > > Sneaking in under the radar of our “liberal” media recently is this doozy The [NYT](http://www.nytimes.com/auth/login?URI=http://www.nytimes.com/2005/07/26/pageoneplus/corrections.html&OP=27aa3d0bQ2FPBkTPXYM6CYYvlPlwwZPwpPluP_Q7BQ5CkYNk_z16PMYCCkMveYN6LIvoz) reported this on Saturday, but has issued a correction. Maybe the more responsible media just didn’t jump the gun… > [@](#): > > An article on Saturday about a federal judge’s order regarding photographs and videotapes related to the Abu Ghraib prison scandal misstated a deadline and the response by Defense Department lawyers. The government was given until Friday to black out some identifying details in the material, not to release it. Defense Department lawyers met that deadline, but asked the court to block the public release of the materials. They did not refuse to cooperate with an order for the materials’ release. emphasis added. Care to amend your OP, **rjung**? [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pentagon-squelches-release-of-iraq-torture-videos-whats-the-excuse/314285.md?page=2)