# "Penultimate" **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [January 2, 2000, 8:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/penultimate/5844 "2000-01-02T08:25:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 11\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Jorge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9fc29f/32.png) [@Jorge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jorge)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2000, 8:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/penultimate/5844/1 "2000-01-02T08:25:00Z")
I always understood this to be the “just before the last”, as _in a sequence_. Just heard John Moody [sp?], NBC TV reporter, use it meaning “one less than the ultimate” referring to _quality_, as in “the Washington DC fireworks show is supposed to be bigger than that amazing Sydney, Australia show… Whether it is the ultimate, or the penultimate, it’ll be something to see”, only slightly paraphrasing. Anyone else accept this ? Or is it another case of the use of word-a-day calendars exceeding the carrying capacity of TV reporters’ wee brains ? * * * _O le mea a tamaali’i fa’asala, a o le mea a tufanua fa’alumaina._ ---
**Author:** ![NanoByte](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ecc23a/32.png) [@NanoByte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NanoByte)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2000, 8:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/penultimate/5844/2 "2000-01-02T08:50:00Z")
Neither I nor my dictionary has ever heard it used that way. Maybe putting new meanings to words of pointless twitter makes them constitute ‘news’. We could also refer to the farthest away tangle of chicken wire on the farm as ‘penultimate’, I suppose. Ray ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2000, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/penultimate/5844/3 "2000-01-02T14:36:00Z")
I don’t feel that penultimate and ultimate have to be confined to a strict chronological sense. I think the implication that you’ve ranked the items by some quantity or quality and this particular item was next to last justifies John Moody’s use of penultimate. At least, he knew enough not to incorrectly use the word to mean a more extreme form of being last. ---
**Author:** ![MrKnowItAll](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrknowitall/32/87_2.png) [@MrKnowItAll](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrKnowItAll)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2000, 6:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/penultimate/5844/4 "2000-01-03T06:07:00Z")
Yet another case of a newsman using a big word that doesn’t mean what they think it does. I’ve only heard it used in reference to a next-to-last, and this definition is supported by my Webster’s. Plus, “penultimate” is the adjective form of “penult”. “Penult” comes from the Latin _paene_ (almost) + _ultimus_ (last). “Ultimate” has taken on additional meanings other than “last”, but so far “penultimate” has been left alone. It means “next to last”, nothing else. * * * Mr. K’s Link of the Month: [Why Plastic Grocery Bags Are Better Than God](http://www.flud.com/ass/bag.html) ---
**Author:** ![pluto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f08c70/32.png) [@pluto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pluto)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2000, 6:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/penultimate/5844/5 "2000-01-03T06:03:00Z")
Just be grateful they didn’t use it to mean “better than ultimate”, which is the misuse I’ve most often encountered. ## I don’t object to using the word in this new way, if it is new – that’s a natural process in any language. I do have strong objections (as do other posters above) to EVER regarding a TV news talking head as any kind of source for ANY real information. I thought of a clever new sig line last night, but I forgot it when I woke up this morning. ---
**Author:** ![Jorge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9fc29f/32.png) [@Jorge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jorge)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2000, 6:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/penultimate/5844/6 "2000-01-03T06:46:00Z")
Ahh, thanks gang. I too had read the dictionary, and felt that the new usage was unsupported, and can [safely] assume it was a mistake rather than some newer usage abroad in the land - except in TV news, where… well pluto said it best. ---
**Author:** ![jwg](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/df788c/32.png) [@jwg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jwg)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2000, 6:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/penultimate/5844/7 "2000-01-06T06:37:00Z")
Penultimate does refer to position in a series, and is not a comparative. I remember that especially from poetry. Lets see what the TV guys would do with “antepenultimate.” ---
**Author:** ![TheDude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/d6d6ee/32.png) [@TheDude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TheDude)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2000, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/penultimate/5844/8 "2000-01-05T19:41:00Z")
From the American Heritage Dictionary: ul·ti·mate (lt-mt) adj. Abbr. ult. ``` 1.Being last in a series, process, or progression: “As the ultimate arbiter of the Constitution, the Supreme Court occupies a central place in our scheme of government” (Richard A. Epstein). 2.Fundamental; elemental: an ultimate truth. 3. a.Of the greatest possible size or significance; maximum: Has the ultimate diamond been found? b.Representing or exhibiting the greatest possible development or sophistication: the ultimate bicycle. c.Utmost; extreme: the ultimate insult. 4.Being most distant or remote; farthest. See Synonyms at last1. 5.Eventual: hoped for ultimate victory. ``` Do you all also object to the use of the world ultimate is it is outlined in definition 3 (i.e. Ultimate frisbee)? If not, why should that be any different for penultimate? TheDude ---
**Author:** ![MrKnowItAll](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrknowitall/32/87_2.png) [@MrKnowItAll](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrKnowItAll)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2000, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/penultimate/5844/9 "2000-01-05T23:43:00Z")
Dude, the definition for ultimate has been warped. In it’s original meaning, it meant last. (Frankly, it should still mean that since it’s impossible to say something is the ultimate unless you know that there will be nothing to come along later to compare it to.) Just because that “ultimate” has been distorted doesn’t mean we must sacrifice another word on the altar of the dumbing of America. “Penultimate” means “next to last”. When someone says “penultimate” I know they mean “next to last”. Why would we _want_ to tack on additional definitions when we have a word with such a nice, precise definition. Want a word that means “second greatest”? Coin a new one. * * * Mr. K’s Link of the Month: [Why Plastic Grocery Bags Are Better Than God](http://www.flud.com/ass/bag.html) ---
**Author:** ![TheDude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/d6d6ee/32.png) [@TheDude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TheDude)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2000, 1:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/penultimate/5844/10 "2000-01-06T01:32:00Z")
> [@](#): > > Why would we want to > tack on additional definitions when we have a word with such a nice, precise definition. Because this is the way that language evolves. You may perceive this as an example of the “dumbing of America”, but I see it as part of the natural evolution of a language. All major English dictionaries I have consulted list furthest, utmost and highest as approriate uses of the word ultimate, which are obviously derived from its original meaning of last. TheDude ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Angel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/d26b3c/32.png) [@Johnny\_Angel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Angel)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2000, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/penultimate/5844/11 "2000-01-06T17:40:00Z")
I don’t object to `ultimate' being used to mean `best’ so long as we remember that what it literally means is `last.' What I do object to is the use of `penultimate’ to mean `even better.’