# People do stupid things. Like calling 911 over Vonage. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 2, 2005, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people-do-stupid-things-like-calling-911-over-vonage/302112 "2005-05-02T19:31:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 13\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![citybadger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/45deac/32.png) [@citybadger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/citybadger)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2005, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people-do-stupid-things-like-calling-911-over-vonage/302112/21 "2005-05-04T15:01:17Z")
Is there an easy way to find out the 10 digit phone number of the local 911 call center? I’d call the police, but they’d probably not understand what I’m talking about. ---
**Author:** ![Ike\_Witt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ike_witt/32/283_2.png) [@Ike\_Witt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ike_Witt)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2005, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people-do-stupid-things-like-calling-911-over-vonage/302112/22 "2005-05-04T15:29:31Z")
I’ve looked over the PUC of Texas website and I can’t find anything relating to Vonage or VoIP. However, I did find this: > [@](#): > > Shopping for Local Phone Service Made Easier > > Shopping around for a local phone provider has gotten easier. Thanks to Senate Bill 86, customers can now expect some basic customer protections from all local telephone companies. > > **Alternative local phone providers are required to provide the same customer protection standards as a regulated local phone company. This means that customers signing up for service with alternative providers must be given clear and accurate information.** Once you sign up and pay a deposit for service, an alternative provider must connect your service within a reasonable period. These providers must also give you notice before disconnecting your service. Alternate providers are prohibited from slamming and cramming. Any violations of these standards could result in penalties and fines or revocation of their operating certificates. > > In addition, with these protections, customers can reap the benefits of competition in the local phone market without giving up their basic rights and protections. Bolding is mine. Like I said, Vonage didn’t appear in the lists of approved CLECs or ILECs in Texas. They may fall under the category of ‘Alternative Provider’, but they would still be held to the same standard. I do know that SBC can be bitch to deal with on interconnect agreement and may have been stalling Vonage. If that is the case, than Vonage should not have been providing service. My gut feeling is that SBC and Vonage are both splitting the blame here. ---
**Author:** ![Exgineer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a88e4f/32.png) [@Exgineer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exgineer)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2005, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people-do-stupid-things-like-calling-911-over-vonage/302112/23 "2005-05-04T15:38:49Z")
> [@bdgr](#): > > Sure they thought about it. No, they didn’t. I know this because during a demo prior to rollout someone asked about E911, and they said “we didn’t think about that.” > [@bdgr](#): > > They offered a service to people who were willing to do with the same 911 service that cell phone users had, and that might eventually have E911. They knew it up front, and told their customers upfront. 911 for VoIP and cell service work completely differently. They are not the same in any way, shape or form. > [@bdgr](#): > > They did nothing wrong. I agree, more or less, but it kind of depends on your definition of “wrong.” They certainly left consideration of E911 provision until very late in development (meaning “after they were done with it”) and that was only after outsiders pointed it out to them. Even here a 911 call from a VoIP subscriber will be connected to a PSAP, but that doesn’t necessarily mean a 911 operator, and it doesn’t guarantee a database dip. Sometimes the phone rings on a desk in the building somewhere. It’s not entirely their fault, because that’s the nature of internet telephony: customer supplied information is needed, because the network won’t tell you squat. That doesn’t change the fact that what we have is a kludge that kinda-sorta works ok, but is nowhere near as reliable or transparent as E911 for POTS. 911 for cell customers is a different headache entirely, but but for me that’s mostly because of the “only in New York would we do something this stupid” factor. ---
**Author:** ![Exgineer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a88e4f/32.png) [@Exgineer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exgineer)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2005, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people-do-stupid-things-like-calling-911-over-vonage/302112/24 "2005-05-04T15:44:41Z")
I should have hit preview. > [@adam yax](#): > > I’ve looked over the PUC of Texas website and I can’t find anything relating to Vonage or VoIP. > > \ > > Like I said, Vonage didn’t appear in the lists of approved CLECs or ILECs in Texas. They may fall under the category of ‘Alternative Provider’, but they would still be held to the same standard. They tend to claim that they’re not subject to state regulation because states don’t have jurisdiction over the internet. It seems to me that they fit the definition of common carrier perfectly, but nobody asks me. ---
**Author:** ![Mockingbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c68b51/32.png) [@Mockingbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mockingbird)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2005, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people-do-stupid-things-like-calling-911-over-vonage/302112/25 "2005-05-04T16:21:00Z")
> [@Exgineer](#): > > I’m not going to say outright that **KellyM** is wrong, because I don’t really know what the situation is in areas where SBC is the ILEC. I can say, however, that nothing she said applies to the State of New York. > > First off, stating that SBC is _the_ company attempting to reassemble the monopoly ignores the elephant in the living room. Anybody heard of Verizon? Secondly, SBC and Verizon aren’t the only ILECs out there. There are 40 independent ILECs in this state alone, and the only problems we’ve had with implementation and coordination of E911 is the expense involved in rural counties with low populations. > > Here, PSAPs are maintained on a county by county basis by the Sheriff’s departments, except for New York City or calls made from cell phones. Verizon is responsible for maintaing the databases in most (if not all) areas, but that’s about it. > > Frankly, a lot of the blame for this does belong with Vonage. They were in such a red hot hurry to get their product to market that they didn’t even think about E911 until the packages were on the shelves at Best Buy. > > Database coordination is the least of the problems with VoIP and E911. While you can buy Vonage ready routers at Best Buy, you can also get one supplied through Vonage that you leave a deposit for which you get returned if and when you quit their service and return the box. As you don’t seem to know that and a few other things about Vonage, I wonder what else you’re bullshitting us on. ---
**Author:** ![Mockingbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c68b51/32.png) [@Mockingbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mockingbird)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2005, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people-do-stupid-things-like-calling-911-over-vonage/302112/26 "2005-05-04T16:31:42Z")
> [@Exgineer](#): > > I’m not going to say outright that **KellyM** is wrong, because I don’t really know what the situation is in areas where SBC is the ILEC. I can say, however, that nothing she said applies to the State of New York. > > First off, stating that SBC is _the_ company attempting to reassemble the monopoly ignores the elephant in the living room. Anybody heard of Verizon? Secondly, SBC and Verizon aren’t the only ILECs out there. There are 40 independent ILECs in this state alone, and the only problems we’ve had with implementation and coordination of E911 is the expense involved in rural counties with low populations. > > Here, PSAPs are maintained on a county by county basis by the Sheriff’s departments, except for New York City or calls made from cell phones. Verizon is responsible for maintaing the databases in most (if not all) areas, but that’s about it. > > Frankly, a lot of the blame for this does belong with Vonage. They were in such a red hot hurry to get their product to market that they didn’t even think about E911 until the packages were on the shelves at Best Buy. > > Database coordination is the least of the problems with VoIP and E911. While you can buy Vonage ready routers at Best Buy, you can also get one supplied through Vonage that you leave a deposit for which you get returned if and when you quit their service and return the box. As you don’t seem to know that and a few other things about Vonage, I wonder what else you’re bullshitting us on. ---
**Author:** ![bdgr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a87d85/32.png) [@bdgr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bdgr)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2005, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people-do-stupid-things-like-calling-911-over-vonage/302112/27 "2005-05-04T16:33:55Z")
> [@Exgineer](#): > > No, they didn’t. I know this because during a demo prior to rollout someone asked about E911, and they said “we didn’t think about that.” Cite? who asked about it? Who did they ask? > [@](#): > > 911 for VoIP and cell service work completely differently. They are not the same in any way, shape or form. Yes, they work differantly but with similar results. If I call 911 on my vonage line at home it gets transfered to the Fort Worth 911 call center, sans any address info. If I call 911 on my cell phone it gets transfered to the the Fort Worth 911 call center, sans any address info. As far as the user is concerned in most places, its the same. > [@](#): > > I agree, more or less, but it kind of depends on your definition of “wrong.” They certainly left consideration of E911 provision until very late in development (meaning “after they were done with it”) and that was only after outsiders pointed it out to them. cite? > [@](#): > > Even here a 911 call from a VoIP subscriber will be connected to a PSAP, but that doesn’t necessarily mean a 911 operator, and it doesn’t guarantee a database dip. Sometimes the phone rings on a desk in the building somewhere. True, but thats pointed out when you buy it, and you have an option to return it if this not acceptable. > [@](#): > > It’s not entirely their fault, because that’s the nature of internet telephony: customer supplied information is needed, because the network won’t tell you squat. That doesn’t change the fact that what we have is a kludge that kinda-sorta works ok, but is nowhere near as reliable or transparent as E911 for POTS. > > 911 for cell customers is a different headache entirely, but but for me that’s mostly because of the “only in New York would we do something this stupid” factor. only in New York? ---
**Author:** ![Exgineer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a88e4f/32.png) [@Exgineer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exgineer)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2005, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people-do-stupid-things-like-calling-911-over-vonage/302112/28 "2005-05-04T17:04:22Z")
> [@Mockingbird](#): > > While you can buy Vonage ready routers at Best Buy, you can also get one supplied through Vonage that you leave a deposit for which you get returned if and when you quit their service and return the box. > > As you don’t seem to know that and a few other things about Vonage, I wonder what else you’re bullshitting us on. What the flying fuck does any of this have to do with anything I said? > [@bdgr](#): > > cite? Do you honestly believe that I’m going to be able to find you a linkable cite where Vonage admits they didn’t think about it until they were ready for rollout? I was there and heard it with my own ears. That’s about the best I can do. > [@bdgr](#): > > True, but thats pointed out when you buy it, and you have an option to return it if this not acceptable. I have absolutely no problem with this. Most, if not all, 911 failures are attributable to idiot customers rather than Vonage, other carriers, or PSAPs. That doesn’t change the fact that it’s just not going to work as well as a call from a POTS line. > [@bdgr](#): > > If I call 911 on my cell phone it gets transfered to the the Fort Worth 911 call center, sans any address info. As far as the user is concerned in most places, its the same. And you’ll be connected with a 911 dispatcher. Not guaranteed with VoIP. It’s sort of off topic, but cell service works differently here. Older phones work sort of the way you describe, but if I call from mine the network can locate me to within about 50 meters. Not great, but better than nothing. Again, I’m talking about crazy-assed New York, where cell calls to 911 don’t get directed to the PSAP anyway. ---
**Author:** ![bdgr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a87d85/32.png) [@bdgr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bdgr)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2005, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people-do-stupid-things-like-calling-911-over-vonage/302112/29 "2005-05-04T17:20:00Z")
> [@Exgineer](#): > > Do you honestly believe that I’m going to be able to find you a linkable cite where Vonage admits they didn’t think about it until they were ready for rollout? I was there and heard it with my own ears. That’s about the best I can do. Ok, so you you heard someone say that. I’ll buy that. Maybe it was some dweeb hired to sell it at a trade show, who didn’t know what the hell he was talking about. Thats why I asked who said it. I doubt they didn’t think about it before they were ready for a rollout, and some guy who worked for vonage saying that doesnt mean anything. [quote] I have absolutely no problem with this. Most, if not all, 911 failures are attributable to idiot customers rather than Vonage, other carriers, or PSAPs. That doesn’t change the fact that it’s just not going to work as well as a call from a POTS line. [/qutoe] nobody evers said it would > [@](#): > > And you’ll be connected with a 911 dispatcher. Not guaranteed with VoIP. Which is SBC’s fault. And the local police dept. Because all vonage does is direct the call to the local police, and if the local police give vonage a number that rings the janitors closet its not vonages fault. ---
**Author:** ![St.Urho](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8e7dd6/32.png) [@St.Urho](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/St.Urho)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2005, 4:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people-do-stupid-things-like-calling-911-over-vonage/302112/30 "2005-05-20T04:06:55Z")
Just wanted to add [this update](http://www.nytimes.com/2005/05/20/technology/20voip.html?adxnnl=1&adxnnlx=1116562131-nkrO0TV98k6jX8HGmcufxw) (Note: New York Times, registration required). Apparently, the FCC has decided that VoIP companies must provide 911 service. They are also requiring traditional phone companies to cooperate in providing access to PSAPs. ---
**Author:** ![Ponder\_Stibbons](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ponder_stibbons/32/343_2.png) [@Ponder\_Stibbons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ponder_Stibbons)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2005, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people-do-stupid-things-like-calling-911-over-vonage/302112/31 "2005-05-20T18:17:16Z")
[Same story over on MSNBC](http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7911607/). ---
**Author:** ![Mockingbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c68b51/32.png) [@Mockingbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mockingbird)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2005, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people-do-stupid-things-like-calling-911-over-vonage/302112/32 "2005-05-20T19:46:05Z")
I did call 911 using Vonage last year. I did get through to 911 and was taken to the hospital(gall bladder). So… Not everything thrown at Vonage is true. ---
**Author:** ![Beware\_of\_Doug](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/278dde/32.png) [@Beware\_of\_Doug](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beware_of_Doug)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2005, 4:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people-do-stupid-things-like-calling-911-over-vonage/302112/33 "2005-05-21T04:37:54Z")
I guess it’s like the old story of the city and the stoplight. Someone asks the street commissioner to put a light at a bad corner. He says, “We’ll do it once somebody gets killed.” (The MSNBC item included a baby who died when her breathing stopped.) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people-do-stupid-things-like-calling-911-over-vonage/302112.md?page=1)