# People Scaming Your Tax Refunds **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [March 15, 2012, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people-scaming-your-tax-refunds/615877 "2012-03-15T17:45:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![LurkerInNJ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ed655f/32.png) [@LurkerInNJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LurkerInNJ)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2012, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people-scaming-your-tax-refunds/615877/21 "2012-03-15T22:42:12Z")
> [@gaffa](#): > > As I said, her parents were in a nursing home. Her mother was suffering from Alzheimer’s, her father from non-Alzheimer’s dementia. As neither was legally competent, she had power of attorney for both. > > I have copies of the false tax returns. **DiosaBellissima** is correct, their policy is “collect first, refund later” (if ever). **As she had control of their estate, she was responsible for their debts.** > > The Nigerian, who had been hired as a caregiver at the nursing home, _was_ deported. > > Bite me. Every single bit of this is real, happened and is documented. Perhaps she needs a guardian for herself as she doesn’t know what she is doing. Would you care to explain how she ended up at the guarantor for her parents debts with only a POA? Did she cause the debt? Did she co-sign? Standard financial POA’s allow you to act on another persons behalf, you **don’t** personally assume the other persons debt. I think it’s more likely she had something to do with it, and is making restitution because the only way she would be personally responsible for that debt is if she participated in the fraud. Where were these funds deposited? In an account where she has a POA on is what I’m guessing. Did she also show you the paperwork from the IRS where they declined to resolve her extremely well documented tax fraud issue? I had a tax fraud issue (someone working with my social security number and claiming they were exempt from witholding), and while it took time, lots of form filling and documentation to resolve the issue, it certainly was resolved by the IRS. And they put ALL collection efforts on hold during the investigation. ---
**Author:** ![gaffa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e68b1a/32.png) [@gaffa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gaffa)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2012, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people-scaming-your-tax-refunds/615877/22 "2012-03-15T23:27:22Z")
> [@LurkerInNJ](#): > > Perhaps she needs a guardian for herself as she doesn’t know what she is doing. Again, bite me. The Nigerian, who because of the incompetence of the nursing home, and their moronic insistence on using each patient’s SSN on their records - instead of creating their own and protecting this vital bit of information - exposed her parents to becoming victims of fraud by the employees. > [@](#): > > Would you care to explain how she ended up at the guarantor for her parents debts with only a POA? Did she cause the debt? Did she co-sign? Standard financial POA’s allow you to act on another persons behalf, you **don’t** personally assume the other persons debt. Cite? > [@](#): > > I think it’s more likely she had something to do with it, and is making restitution because the only way she would be personally responsible for that debt is if she participated in the fraud. This cannot be answered properly other than in the Pit. > [@](#): > > Where were these funds deposited? In an account where she has a POA on is what I’m guessing. You haven’t got the faintest grasp of the situation, do you? [ul] [li]All of the information on her parents necessary to file fraudulent income tax returns was sitting in the nursing station. [/li][li]The nursing home did a horrible job of vetting employees. [/li][li]One of the employees filed fraudulent income tax returns on both her mother and father.[/li][li]Refunds for both parties were electronically deposited.[/li][li]When she files the returns for herself, her mother and her father, the IRS informs her that they have already filed, and she is now on the hook.[/li][li]Employee gets arrested and deported back to Nigeria.[/li][/ul] > [@](#): > > Did she also show you the paperwork from the IRS where they declined to resolve her extremely well documented tax fraud issue? I had a tax fraud issue (someone working with my social security number and claiming they were exempt from witholding), and while it took time, lots of form filling and documentation to resolve the issue, it certainly was resolved by the IRS. And they put ALL collection efforts on hold during the investigation. Lucky you. ---
**Author:** ![SpoilerVirgin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/4491bb/32.png) [@SpoilerVirgin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SpoilerVirgin)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2012, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people-scaming-your-tax-refunds/615877/23 "2012-03-16T00:16:16Z")
[quote=“gaffa, post:22, topic:615877”] [ul][li]When she files the returns for herself, her mother and her father, the IRS informs her that they have already filed, and she is now on the hook.[/ul][/li][/QUOTE] This is the point that isn’t clear. She filed returns for them, and had power of attorney over _their_ finances, so _they_ should be on the hook for any money presumed owned. I can understand the IRS taking all of the parents’ assets as restitution, but why are they going after _her_ assets? Not questioning your story, just trying to understand. ---
**Author:** ![LurkerInNJ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ed655f/32.png) [@LurkerInNJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LurkerInNJ)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2012, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people-scaming-your-tax-refunds/615877/24 "2012-03-16T00:16:23Z")
> [@gaffa](#): > > You haven’t got the faintest grasp of the situation, do you? > > [ul] > [li]All of the information on her parents necessary to file fraudulent income tax returns was sitting in the nursing station. [/li][li]The nursing home did a horrible job of vetting employees. [/li][li]One of the employees filed fraudulent income tax returns on both her mother and father.[/li][li]Refunds for both parties were electronically deposited.[/li][li]When she files the returns for herself, her mother and her father, the IRS informs her that they have already filed, and she is now on the hook.[/li][li]Employee gets arrested and deported back to Nigeria.[/li][/ul] I think it’s you who hasn’t grasped the fact that her story is bullshit. You are so invested in it that you can’t see obvious truths. _All of the information on her parents necessary to file fraudulent income tax returns was sitting in the nursing station._ That’s believable. I personally refuse to write my SSN on forms because of this. \*The nursing home did a horrible job of vetting employees. \* Not in dispute. It happens. _One of the employees filed fraudulent income tax returns on both her mother and father._ The story is still holding up. No problem yet. _Refunds for both parties were electronically deposited._ Happens a lot. Very popular choice. But you still haven’t answered the very important question of who the account owner was, and was it an account covered by the POA? And did she have access to this account? _When she files the returns for herself, her mother and her father, the IRS informs her that they have already filed, and she is now on the hook._ Story falls apart here. When you get the we already have a return and by the way we electronically deposited a 300k refund, that’s when you start the process to clear the mess up. Just like the IRS says here \*What is identity theft? Identity theft occurs when someone uses your personal information such as your name, Social Security number (SSN) or other identifying information, without your permission, to commit fraud or other crimes. How do you know if your tax records have been affected? Usually, an identity thief uses a legitimate taxpayer’s identity to fraudulently file a tax return and claim a refund. Generally, the identity thief will use a stolen SSN to file a forged tax return and attempt to get a fraudulent refund early in the filing season. You may be unaware that this has happened until you file your return later in the filing season and discover that two returns have been filed using the same SSN. Be alert to possible identity theft if you receive an IRS notice or letter that states that: More than one tax return for you was filed, You have a balance due, refund offset or have had collection actions taken against you for a year you did not file a tax return, or IRS records indicate you received wages from an employer unknown to you. What to do if your tax records were affected by identity theft? If you receive a notice from IRS, respond immediately. If you believe someone may have used your SSN fraudulently, please notify IRS immediately by responding to the name and number printed on the notice or letter. You will need to fill out the IRS Identity Theft Affidavit, Form 14039. For victims of identity theft who have previously been in contact with the IRS and have not achieved a resolution, please contact the IRS Identity Protection Specialized Unit, toll-free, at 1-800-908-4490.\* Holding a POA’s does not make you responsible for the debts of the principal. You want a cite? Try Googling POA and debt responsibility. You have a duty of care, but you do not assume the debts of the principal. Unless these funds were deposited in an account she had a POA on, she is not on the hook for anything. _Employee gets arrested and deported back to Nigeria._ This would be a crucial and important proof to use in getting the IRS to resolve the issue. I think this fact is escaping you. Do not tell me to “bite you”. Perhaps the women in your life allow you to speak like that to them, but I don’t allow that in my life. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2012, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people-scaming-your-tax-refunds/615877/25 "2012-03-16T00:58:39Z")
I’m zipping through Google, using the words “Nigerian”, “$300,000”, “scam” and “tax refund”. All I’ve gotten so far is some cases where hundreds of people got scammed for a _total_ of $300,000 or more, but nothing about a single case involving anywhere near that amount of money. ---
**Author:** ![gaffa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e68b1a/32.png) [@gaffa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gaffa)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2012, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people-scaming-your-tax-refunds/615877/26 "2012-03-16T01:28:18Z")
> [@LurkerInNJ](#): > > _Refunds for both parties were electronically deposited._ > > Happens a lot. Very popular choice. But you still haven’t answered the very important question of who the account owner was, and was it an account covered by the POA? And did she have access to this account? The bank account into which the fraudulent returns were deposited were ones set up, owned and controlled by the scammers. > [@](#): > > _When she files the returns for herself, her mother and her father, the IRS informs her that they have already filed, and she is now on the hook._ > > Story falls apart here. When you get the we already have a return and by the way we electronically deposited a 300k refund, that’s when you start the process to clear the mess up. Just like the IRS says here The IRS has since figured out that they deposited refund money into a fraudulent account. They don’t care. > [@](#): > > Holding a POA’s does not make you responsible for the debts of the principal. You want a cite? Try Googling POA and debt responsibility. Cite? A real cite. Are you a tax attorney, or just some random person on the Net? > [@](#): > > Unless these funds were deposited in an account she had a POA on, she is not on the hook for anything. Reality begs to differ. > [@](#): > > _Employee gets arrested and deported back to Nigeria._ > > This would be a crucial and important proof to use in getting the IRS to resolve the issue. I think this fact is escaping you. She has been pursuing this and trying to get this resolved for more than a year. > [@](#): > > Do not tell me to “bite you”. Perhaps the women in your life allow you to speak like that to them, but I don’t allow that in my life. I’ll tell you anything I wish within the rules of this board. This is the woman my brother loves who has been very kind to me and our family. She has been dragged through hell by scammers who stole her parents identity. And you, some random poster whose name I have never seen before, is calling her a liar and a thief. “Bite me” is the very mildest epithet available, and far less than you deserve. As this place was run by the church to which her parents belonged, she hasn’t made a huge stink in the media about it - yet. She is still trying to let them to make it right. ---
**Author:** ![gaffa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e68b1a/32.png) [@gaffa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gaffa)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2012, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people-scaming-your-tax-refunds/615877/27 "2012-03-16T01:34:19Z")
How does the IRS treat people who have been scammed by others? Singer/songwriter Janis Ian [from _Performing Songwriter_ magazine in 1998](http://www.janisian.com/reading/monumental.php): > [@](#): > > The scenario: A phone conversation from Los Angeles, 1986. > > The players: My tax attorney, myself, and my IRS collection agent, Mr. Granite. That’s his name, honest. > > My situation: I’ve just discovered the accountant I’d been with since the age of fourteen has been keeping two sets of books, and I have unpaid taxes going back to 1979, plus interest and penalties. The IRS says they’ve spent seven years trying to find me, and are about to put me in jail. > > The issue at hand: I’ve begged my lawyer for the chance to speak with them directly. I’m sure that if I explain the double-entry system, the large amounts of money he’s stolen, and the fact that I never knew and am blameless, they’ll be reasonable. > > The discussion: Me: “Mr. Granite, my name is Janis Ian.” > > The agent: “F—k you.” > > Me: “But sir, I’m calling myself to explain all this to you. Also, I’m sole support of my wheelchair-bound mother; you’ll leave me enough money every month to continue paying her rent and food, right?” > > Mr. Granite: “F—k you. All you people are alike. Legally I have to give you $75 a month and $50 for each dependent. That’s it.” > > The decision: Get off the phone and burst into tears. Hire more lawyers. > > The result: I finally finished paying them off this year. We managed to negotiate with Granite’s supervisor (Mrs. Bear - do you really think I could make these names up?) and provide minimally for my mother. (Since they couldn’t legally take my instruments, I was permitted to sell them and use the money for her support). > > The consequences: I lost everything I’d spent the previous 20 years building, and remained in the hole for another thirteen years. The accountant, Sam Weintraub, turned out not to have a license; he died of a brain tumor sometime after telling my lawyers that if we sued, he’d inform Mr. Granite that I’d hidden assets all over the world, and I could then spend the rest of my life trying to convince the IRS otherwise. > > What I’d do now: I had always believed that as a second-generation American who’d “made it”, my country deserved my full financial support. I’d never hidden assets, cheated on my taxes, or socked away cash for a rainy day. I leave the rest of the thought to you. > > My current take: I now know a lot about living like a thief, disappearing at will, and leaving no trail. These are good things for a musician to know. ---
**Author:** ![Justin\_Bailey](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/justin_bailey/32/8792_2.png) [@Justin\_Bailey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Justin_Bailey)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2012, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people-scaming-your-tax-refunds/615877/28 "2012-03-16T01:48:38Z")
> [@gaffa](#): > > How does the IRS treat people who have been scammed by others? Singer/songwriter Janis Ian [from _Performing Songwriter_ magazine in 1998](http://www.janisian.com/reading/monumental.php): I totally believe that’s how that conversation went coming from the sole witness to J. Edgar Hoover’s crossdressing parties. ---
**Author:** ![gaffa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e68b1a/32.png) [@gaffa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gaffa)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2012, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people-scaming-your-tax-refunds/615877/29 "2012-03-16T01:55:51Z")
> [@Justin\_Bailey](#): > > I totally believe that’s how that conversation went coming from the sole witness to J. Edgar Hoover’s crossdressing parties. She saw a fat man in a dress and thought it was Hoover. He didn’t give her his business card. ---
**Author:** ![SpoilerVirgin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/4491bb/32.png) [@SpoilerVirgin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SpoilerVirgin)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2012, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people-scaming-your-tax-refunds/615877/30 "2012-03-16T02:10:16Z")
> [@gaffa](#): > > How does the IRS treat people who have been scammed by others? But this woman wasn’t scammed – her parents were. I still don’t understand how the IRS ends up coming after her. Is the house that she might lose her parents’ house? Janis Ian may have been scammed, but it was her taxes that the IRS wanted. They weren’t trying to get money from her children. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2012, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people-scaming-your-tax-refunds/615877/31 "2012-03-16T02:13:49Z")
> [@gaffa](#): > > She saw a fat man in a dress and thought it was Hoover. He didn’t give her his business card. The party was in the late 70’s, and J. Edgar died in 1972. Neat trick, that. ---
**Author:** ![gaffa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e68b1a/32.png) [@gaffa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gaffa)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2012, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people-scaming-your-tax-refunds/615877/32 "2012-03-16T02:29:03Z")
> [@SpoilerVirgin](#): > > But this woman wasn’t scammed – her parents were. I still don’t understand how the IRS ends up coming after her. It’s like a mountain “it was there”. > [@](#): > > Is the house that she might lose her parents’ house? No, she sold her parents house back in Massachusetts. She’s been driven into debt paying the IRS back for the money that was fraudulently refunded. The situation seems to be this: the IRS approved a pair of income tax returns that they should never have approved, and issued a pair of refunds they never should have issued. The people who stole the money are gone. So they get the money back from whoever they can. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2012, 2:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people-scaming-your-tax-refunds/615877/33 "2012-03-16T02:34:07Z")
> [@gaffa](#): > > It’s like a mountain “it was there”. > No, she sold her parents house back in Massachusetts. She’s been driven into debt paying the IRS back for the money that was fraudulently refunded. > > The situation seems to be this: the IRS approved a pair of income tax returns that they should never have approved, and issued a pair of refunds they never should have issued. The people who stole the money are gone. So they get the money back from whoever they can. No, they _don’t_. Since the POA doesn’t make her liable for their debt, why are they going after _her_? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2012, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people-scaming-your-tax-refunds/615877/34 "2012-03-16T02:37:41Z")
Someone help me out-I can’t find anything _close_ to what **gaffa** claims. Are there any cases out there where the IRS went after someone merely because they had POA when someone else owed the government? How about anything close to owing $300,000? ---
**Author:** ![LurkerInNJ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ed655f/32.png) [@LurkerInNJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LurkerInNJ)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2012, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people-scaming-your-tax-refunds/615877/35 "2012-03-16T02:47:34Z")
> [@gaffa](#): > > As this place was run by the church to which her parents belonged, she hasn’t made a huge stink in the media about it - yet. She is still trying to let them to make it right. So what you are saying is “_was forced to pay it all back by the IRS_” and is _on the verge of losing her home_, but she is such a sweet gal that she doesn’t want to make a "_huge stink_ - _yet_, because … she is “_trying to let them to make it right_”. But now she suddenly has “_been pursuing this and trying to get this resolved for more than a year._” after already having settled the matter by paying back the money??? She sounds like a real catch. Maybe you should marry her. I don’t think you would have any trouble at all in convincing her to bite you. Then you could stop begging me to do it. Win Win situation! ---
**Author:** ![gaffa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e68b1a/32.png) [@gaffa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gaffa)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2012, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people-scaming-your-tax-refunds/615877/36 "2012-03-16T02:55:29Z")
I guess I’ll have to put together a web site with all the evidence and post it all here. And you know what will happen? **LurkerInNJ** will never respond and will never apologize. And that is the way things go on the Dope. ---
**Author:** ![LurkerInNJ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ed655f/32.png) [@LurkerInNJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LurkerInNJ)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2012, 3:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people-scaming-your-tax-refunds/615877/37 "2012-03-16T03:16:06Z")
> [@gaffa](#): > > I guess I’ll have to put together a web site with all the evidence and post it all here. > > And you know what will happen? **LurkerInNJ** will never respond and will never apologize. And that is the way things go on the Dope. I’m sure a national news or morning type show would be very interested in airing a segment about two helpless elderly people with dementia who were unknowing victims of a tax refund scam run by Nigerians who were employed by the nursing home they reside in, and then to make matters worse, their daughter was violated by the IRS and is about to lose her home because the IRS “forced” her to pay them 300K because _It’s like a mountain “it was there”_ even though it’s not her debt, while completely ignoring the fact that these same Nigerians were already arrested AND deported for this very crime. ---
**Author:** ![LurkerInNJ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ed655f/32.png) [@LurkerInNJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LurkerInNJ)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2012, 3:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people-scaming-your-tax-refunds/615877/38 "2012-03-16T03:23:19Z")
Missed the edit window. Wanted to add It’s not like the nursing home would have insurance or anything to cover the scam run by their employees or anything, right? ---
**Author:** ![grude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47774/32.png) [@grude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grude)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2012, 3:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people-scaming-your-tax-refunds/615877/39 "2012-03-16T03:29:47Z")
> [@SpoilerVirgin](#): > > But this woman wasn’t scammed – her parents were. I still don’t understand how the IRS ends up coming after her. . They didn’t. BUT… The IRS could and would put federal tax liens on everything either parent owned, which sounds like it could be several million dollars in property at least(the business and their house/s at least and any bank accounts). So the daughter could end up mortgaging her own home to keep the business running and pay bills until the whole thing gets settled, why would she do this? Well if you let them just take the property the liens are on they usually sell it for pennies and you don’t want your parents millions dissapearing. ---
**Author:** ![DiosaBellissima](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a8b319/32.png) [@DiosaBellissima](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DiosaBellissima)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2012, 3:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people-scaming-your-tax-refunds/615877/40 "2012-03-16T03:37:22Z")
> [@gaffa](#): > > Cite? I have Power of Attorney for hundreds of clients with serious tax problems. . . that doesn’t mean I am now responsible for their debts. That’d be a really poor business plan, if I may say so myself. I’m not a tax attorney, but I do the same sort of thing (minus the actual court representation-- we do everything administratively). Maybe **RandRover** can pop in and give you the official tax attorney point of view on this. And I want to be clear: yes, the IRS does a lot of dick stuff. They sometimes (often times) won’t actually halt collection action while fraud is being investigated-- this is doubly true when citizens represent themselves and don’t get professional representation. But **Gaffa** , I don’t know. I hear a lot of _insane_ (yet 100% truthful) stories of IRS mess ups and ill treatment from clients every single day. Every day. The craziest shit that I wouldn’t believe if I didn’t have the papers in front of my nose. But this doesn’t quite pass the sniff test. I mean, it’s possible. . . I’ve heard weirder shit, but the whole POA thing is not how it works. Now, I would believe that perhaps a Revenue Officer lied to her (and they do that sometimes) and told her she was responsible for her parents’ debts, so she better hurry up and pay up. That happens sometimes. But it’s just that: a lie. If she believed it and paid it. . . I just hope she had good representation. It doesn’t sound like she did, which is unfortunate. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people-scaming-your-tax-refunds/615877.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people-scaming-your-tax-refunds/615877.md?page=3)