# People thinking of having children, can you consider the following points? **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [September 7, 2017, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people-thinking-of-having-children-can-you-consider-the-following-points/795766 "2017-09-07T23:11:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Marcus\_Flavius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a4c791/32.png) [@Marcus\_Flavius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marcus_Flavius)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2017, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people-thinking-of-having-children-can-you-consider-the-following-points/795766/1 "2017-09-07T23:11:59Z")
This is for people thinking of procreating at some point in the future: -Your future child does not need to be born - Your future child is not asking to be born - There is no pain, suffering, or deprivation in the realm of non existence - Your future child is guaranteed to experience pain, suffering, and deprivation. - Your future child is guaranteed to die ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2017, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people-thinking-of-having-children-can-you-consider-the-following-points/795766/2 "2017-09-07T23:17:36Z")
Pssst, **Marcus** : every would-be parent already knows these things. As a non-parent myself, I’m certainly on board with the position that not everyone needs to be a parent and failure to procreate doesn’t prevent you from having a happy and fulfilling life. But I think it’s senseless to expect that such truisms will or should deter people who actually **want** to be parents. ---
**Author:** ![greenmario](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/97f17d/32.png) [@greenmario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/greenmario)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2017, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people-thinking-of-having-children-can-you-consider-the-following-points/795766/3 "2017-09-07T23:22:24Z")
All of those things listed apply to the life I am currently living, and I would still give existence a solid 3 1/2 stars out of 4. So, yeah given the opportunity I think its worth the risk to have a kid. ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2017, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people-thinking-of-having-children-can-you-consider-the-following-points/795766/4 "2017-09-07T23:31:33Z")
I love my life. My kids love their lives. Each day is full of joy and wonder. So, that’s more to factor in. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2017, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people-thinking-of-having-children-can-you-consider-the-following-points/795766/5 "2017-09-07T23:33:51Z")
[moderating] Moving from Great Debates to MPSIMS. [/moderating] ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2017, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people-thinking-of-having-children-can-you-consider-the-following-points/795766/6 "2017-09-07T23:33:55Z")
> [@Marcus\_Flavius](#): > > This is for people thinking of procreating at some point in the future: > > -Your future child does not need to be born > > - Your future child is not asking to be born > - There is no pain, suffering, or deprivation in the realm of non existence > - Your future child is guaranteed to experience pain, suffering, and deprivation. > - Your future child is guaranteed to die Why should they consider these questions? What effect do you hope that considering these questions will have? Why do you think these questions are worthy of consideration? ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2017, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people-thinking-of-having-children-can-you-consider-the-following-points/795766/7 "2017-09-07T23:52:09Z")
And here I thought that my (hypothetical) future child was guaranteed an immortal life of pleasure, fun and excess. Fortunately, **Marcus Flavius** is here to set me straight. ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2017, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people-thinking-of-having-children-can-you-consider-the-following-points/795766/8 "2017-09-07T23:59:08Z")
Most people would rather exist than not, so the statistical odds are pretty good you are not dooming an individual to a hellish life of non-stop suffering. In fact, chances are much better now than they used to be. Good luck talking people out of procreating. It’s about as close to an imperative, scientifically speaking, as we are ever going to get. Literally, the whole point of existence is to reproduce. Our entire biology is structured around making that happen. Our fancy brains developed complex civilizations, economies, governments, and message boards, all in the interest of propagating the human species. Not everyone does, or necessarily should, feel the need to make babies (I personally choose to adopt), but it’s endemic to humanity as a whole, and attempting to shame would-be parents is not likely to change that. ---
**Author:** ![Yodalicious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yodalicious/32/8195_2.png) [@Yodalicious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yodalicious)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2017, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people-thinking-of-having-children-can-you-consider-the-following-points/795766/9 "2017-09-08T00:11:25Z")
> [@Marcus\_Flavius](#): > > -Your future child is guaranteed to die So is my future spouse, my current family and friends, my pets… Are you saying we should all be shut-ins and never interact with anyone; never have relationships? Sent from my SPH-L720T using Tapatalk ---
**Author:** ![Marcus\_Flavius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a4c791/32.png) [@Marcus\_Flavius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marcus_Flavius)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2017, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people-thinking-of-having-children-can-you-consider-the-following-points/795766/10 "2017-09-08T00:13:54Z")
> [@Spice\_Weasel](#): > > Literally, the whole point of existence is to reproduce. Our entire biology is structured around making that happen. Our fancy brains developed complex civilizations, economies, governments, and message boards, all in the interest of propagating the human species. > . You are assigning a teleology to something which has no such thing. You could just as easily say the point of existence is to go extinct, and we’re the failures because we can’t stop breeding ---
**Author:** ![Marcus\_Flavius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a4c791/32.png) [@Marcus\_Flavius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marcus_Flavius)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2017, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people-thinking-of-having-children-can-you-consider-the-following-points/795766/11 "2017-09-08T00:18:10Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > And here I thought that my (hypothetical) future child was guaranteed an immortal life of pleasure, fun and excess. Fortunately, **Marcus Flavius** is here to set me straight. Why are you planning to impose certain death and suffering, and all the deprivations that come with the disgraceful slavery of biological existence, onto an innocent being? Would it not be better to leave that being in a place where they cannot possibly experience death, pain, suffering, misery, etc etc? ---
**Author:** ![SpoilerVirgin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/4491bb/32.png) [@SpoilerVirgin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SpoilerVirgin)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2017, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people-thinking-of-having-children-can-you-consider-the-following-points/795766/12 "2017-09-08T00:28:48Z")
> [@Marcus\_Flavius](#): > > Why are you planning to impose certain death and suffering, and all the deprivations that come with the disgraceful slavery of biological existence, onto an innocent being? Would it not be better to leave that being in a place where they cannot possibly experience death, pain, suffering, misery, etc etc? Presumably you believe that the unborn cannot possibly experience joy, love, beauty, music, ice cream, etc. Why would you want to deprive them of all of those things? I personally am very happy to have been born and to be alive now. One of the sorrows of my life is that I have not been able to share those experiences with a child. ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2017, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people-thinking-of-having-children-can-you-consider-the-following-points/795766/13 "2017-09-08T00:34:05Z")
> [@Marcus\_Flavius](#): > > You could just as easily say the point of existence is to go extinct, and we’re the failures because we can’t stop breeding That makes no sense. There’s no implied value-judgment in the fact that we are biologically programmed to breed, it’s just scientific reality. So I’m not sure what being a ‘‘failure’’ has to do with anything. [QUOTE=Marcus Flavius] Would it not be better to leave that being in a place where they cannot possibly experience death, pain, suffering, misery, etc etc? [/QUOTE] Would it not be cruel to leave that being in a place where they cannot possibly experience love, hope, joy, euphoria, etc. etc? I always see your sort of arguments as begging the question. You rest on the assumption that every form of suffering is inherently bad, and that avoiding suffering is always better, which is hardly a universally accepted truth. Furthermore, your ‘‘disgraceful slavery of biological existence’’ is not an ironclad fact. It’s more of an argument from emotion, so the entire foundation on which you’ve built your argument is unstable. Even as a person who has repeatedly and chronically throughout my life wished not to exist, I reject your characterization of what it means to be alive. ---
**Author:** ![Marcus\_Flavius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a4c791/32.png) [@Marcus\_Flavius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marcus_Flavius)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2017, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people-thinking-of-having-children-can-you-consider-the-following-points/795766/14 "2017-09-08T00:34:35Z")
> [@SpoilerVirgin](#): > > Presumably you believe that the unborn cannot possibly experience joy, love, beauty, music, ice cream, etc. Why would you want to deprive them of all of those things? > . The nonexistent cannot be deprived of anything ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2017, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people-thinking-of-having-children-can-you-consider-the-following-points/795766/15 "2017-09-08T00:36:24Z")
> [@Marcus\_Flavius](#): > > > [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > > > And here I thought that my (hypothetical) future child was guaranteed an immortal life of pleasure, fun and excess. Fortunately, **Marcus Flavius** is here to set me straight. > > Why are you planning to impose certain death and suffering, and all the deprivations that come with the disgraceful slavery of biological existence, onto an innocent being? Would it not be better to leave that being in a place where they cannot possibly experience death, pain, suffering, misery, etc etc? My (hypothetical) future child might write music to rival Beethoven, Bach or McCartney. My (hypothetical) future child might find the cure for cancer, Alzheimer’s disease or cerebral palsy. My (hypothetical) future child might smile and laugh and in doing so, bring me great joy. Why would you want to prevent the existence of such a wonderful person? ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2017, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people-thinking-of-having-children-can-you-consider-the-following-points/795766/16 "2017-09-08T00:42:02Z")
Kantian imperative. So dull. Reading ahead, are you? They don’t usually teach this stuff in Intro to Philosophy until after mid-terms. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2017, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people-thinking-of-having-children-can-you-consider-the-following-points/795766/17 "2017-09-08T00:43:56Z")
> [@Marcus\_Flavius](#): > > The nonexistent cannot be deprived of anything Have you discussed this with your parents, or that therapist they spent all that money on? ---
**Author:** ![GrumpyBunny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bc8723/32.png) [@GrumpyBunny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GrumpyBunny)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2017, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people-thinking-of-having-children-can-you-consider-the-following-points/795766/18 "2017-09-08T00:43:56Z")
> [@Daddypants](#): > > So is my future spouse, my current family and friends, my pets… Are you saying we should all be shut-ins and never interact with anyone; never have relationships? Works great for me! > [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > My (hypothetical) future child might write music to rival Beethoven, Bach or McCartney. My (hypothetical) future child might find the cure for cancer, Alzheimer’s disease or cerebral palsy. My (hypothetical) future child might smile and laugh and in doing so, bring me great joy. > > Why would you want to prevent the existence of such a wonderful person? My (hypothetical) future child would literally be a miracle, and in being such, would make us a lot of money. ---
**Author:** ![Marcus\_Flavius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a4c791/32.png) [@Marcus\_Flavius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marcus_Flavius)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2017, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people-thinking-of-having-children-can-you-consider-the-following-points/795766/19 "2017-09-08T00:54:25Z")
> [@Spice\_Weasel](#): > > we are biologically programmed to breed, No, we are not > [@](#): > > Would it not be cruel to leave that being in a place where they cannot possibly experience love, hope, joy, euphoria, etc. etc? -The nonexistent cannot be deprived of these things since they have no desire for them. - Why do love, joy and hope need to exist? - Pain and suffering are always more morally significant than pleasure and good feelings. > [@](#): > > I always see your sort of arguments as begging the question. You rest on the assumption that every form of suffering is inherently bad, and that avoiding suffering is always better, which is hardly a universally accepted truth. Most of us believe that it is wrong to impose harm, death, and suffering on an innocent being. > [@](#): > > Furthermore, your ‘‘disgraceful slavery of biological existence’’ is not an ironclad fact. It’s more of an argument from emotio No, it isn’t. We are all literally slaves of the flesh, whether we are conscious of this fact or not. ---
**Author:** ![Marcus\_Flavius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a4c791/32.png) [@Marcus\_Flavius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marcus_Flavius)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2017, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people-thinking-of-having-children-can-you-consider-the-following-points/795766/20 "2017-09-08T00:56:20Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > Have you discussed this with your parents, or that therapist they spent all that money on? Funny [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people-thinking-of-having-children-can-you-consider-the-following-points/795766.md?page=2)