# People who are judged to be both good and evil. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 27, 2011, 1:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people-who-are-judged-to-be-both-good-and-evil/579888 "2011-04-27T13:37:10Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![blood63](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/97f17d/32.png) [@blood63](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blood63)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2011, 1:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people-who-are-judged-to-be-both-good-and-evil/579888/1 "2011-04-27T13:37:10Z")
I am looking for people who have been deemed saintly (to some degree) by one group of people and satanic by others. An example might be George W. Bush or[Henry Morgentaler](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_Morgentaler), Canadian arbortionist. A brief reasoning would be helpful. Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2011, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people-who-are-judged-to-be-both-good-and-evil/579888/2 "2011-04-27T13:41:39Z")
Bill Gates. If I have to list the reasons, you were asleep in the '90s. šŸ˜‰ ---
**Author:** ![Jackknifed\_Juggernaut](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9de053/32.png) [@Jackknifed\_Juggernaut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackknifed_Juggernaut)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2011, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people-who-are-judged-to-be-both-good-and-evil/579888/3 "2011-04-27T13:45:52Z")
Many, many athletes ---
**Author:** ![SmartAlecCat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/67e7ee/32.png) [@SmartAlecCat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SmartAlecCat)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2011, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people-who-are-judged-to-be-both-good-and-evil/579888/4 "2011-04-27T13:48:39Z")
Edward Kennedy, Sarah Palin (actually, many, many politicians) ---
**Author:** ![Rhythmdvl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/85f322/32.png) [@Rhythmdvl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rhythmdvl)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2011, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people-who-are-judged-to-be-both-good-and-evil/579888/5 "2011-04-27T13:50:29Z")
Robert E. Lee. Heā€™s venerated in the South. I wouldnā€™t call Northern sentiments toward him vitriolic, but any glimpse past the hype reveals a pro-slavery traitor. I believe there have been threads on this. ETA: Recent link to [WaPost](http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/dispelling-the-myth-of-robert-e-lee/2011/04/25/AFrXC1kE_story.html). (note Iā€™m using Southern and Northern in the loose sense. Please donā€™t get hung up on semantics.) ---
**Author:** ![blood63](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/97f17d/32.png) [@blood63](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blood63)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2011, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people-who-are-judged-to-be-both-good-and-evil/579888/6 "2011-04-27T13:57:36Z")
> [@Jackknifed\_Juggernaut](#): > > Many, many athletes Would Michael Jordon be a good choice? Give me your nastiest yet most venerated. ---
**Author:** ![Koxinga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/4af34b/32.png) [@Koxinga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Koxinga)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2011, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people-who-are-judged-to-be-both-good-and-evil/579888/7 "2011-04-27T14:05:48Z")
The founder of any significant scismatic religious sect, from Martin Luther on down. ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2011, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people-who-are-judged-to-be-both-good-and-evil/579888/8 "2011-04-27T14:29:31Z")
> **[John Brown (abolitionist)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Brown_(abolitionist))** > > John Brown (May 9, 1800 ā€“ December 2, 1859) was an American abolitionist leader. First reaching national prominence for his radical abolitionism and fighting in Bleeding Kansas, he was eventually captured and executed for a failed incitement of a slave rebellion at Harpers Ferry preceding the American Civil War. > An evangelical Christian of strong religious convictions, Brown was profoundly influenced by the Puritan faith of his upbringing. He believed that he was "an instrument of God",:ā€Š248ā€Š... John Brown, for sure. Madman? Terrorist? Saint? Abolitionist, for sure. Did he die for others to be free, or was he just completely mad? ---
**Author:** ![Reno\_Nevada](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/6f9a4e/32.png) [@Reno\_Nevada](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reno_Nevada)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2011, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people-who-are-judged-to-be-both-good-and-evil/579888/9 "2011-04-27T14:59:32Z")
Pretty much \*no-body \*is judged either saintly or satanic by _everybody_. The Venerable Mother Theresa? We have debate on these very boards by people who venerate/vilify her. Adolf Hitler? He has (a very few) fans still. Genghiz Khan? Currently undergoing a revision. Stalin? Mao? Still have on-going cults. ---
**Author:** ![Jackknifed\_Juggernaut](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9de053/32.png) [@Jackknifed\_Juggernaut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackknifed_Juggernaut)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2011, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people-who-are-judged-to-be-both-good-and-evil/579888/10 "2011-04-27T15:51:51Z")
> [@blood63](#): > > Would Michael Jordon be a good choice? Give me your nastiest yet most venerated. I donā€™t think Jordan was considered ā€œevilā€ by enough people. He was always well-respected by even his most bitter rivals and their fans. Muhammad Ali is almost universally venerated currently, but I think he definitely qualifies because of his past. In the modern day, Tiger Woods, LeBron James and Floyd Mayweather are my top contenders as having the most bar-belled followings. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2011, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people-who-are-judged-to-be-both-good-and-evil/579888/11 "2011-04-27T15:52:18Z")
> [@Rhythmdvl](#): > > (note Iā€™m using Southern and Northern in the loose sense. Please donā€™t get hung up on semantics.) Like ā€œtraitorā€? šŸ™‚ ---
**Author:** ![Shakester](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shakester/32/437_2.png) [@Shakester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shakester)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2011, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people-who-are-judged-to-be-both-good-and-evil/579888/12 "2011-04-27T15:52:29Z")
Napoleon. Did some [good](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Napoleonic_code) stuff, did some [bad](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Napoleonic_Wars) stuff. Popular among the French, the rest of Europe not such big fans. ---
**Author:** ![Omar\_Little](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omar_little/32/269_2.png) [@Omar\_Little](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omar_Little)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2011, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people-who-are-judged-to-be-both-good-and-evil/579888/13 "2011-04-27T16:02:36Z")
Iā€™m sure there are several SDMB posters that would qualify. ---
**Author:** ![Jas09](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/d07c76/32.png) [@Jas09](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jas09)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2011, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people-who-are-judged-to-be-both-good-and-evil/579888/14 "2011-04-27T16:20:49Z")
Satan? I hear the Satan-worshipers worship him, but many others think he is Satanic. ETA: I should add that Iā€™m more ambivalent. ---
**Author:** ![pravnik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8edcca/32.png) [@pravnik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pravnik)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2011, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people-who-are-judged-to-be-both-good-and-evil/579888/15 "2011-04-27T16:40:20Z")
Vlad III, Prince of Wallachia, aka Vlad Tepes (Vlad the Impaler) or Dracula. Primarily thought of today as a bloodthirsty and sadistic killer, but celebrated as a hero in Romanian literature and legend. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2011, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people-who-are-judged-to-be-both-good-and-evil/579888/16 "2011-04-27T16:40:22Z")
Well thereā€™s that scumbag arch-traitor George Washingtonā€¦ šŸ˜ƒ ---
**Author:** ![RandMcnally](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b782af/32.png) [@RandMcnally](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RandMcnally)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2011, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people-who-are-judged-to-be-both-good-and-evil/579888/17 "2011-04-27T16:50:16Z")
W.T. Sherman has some good parts about him (March to the Sea) and some bad parts (Indian wars). ---
**Author:** ![Chessic\_Sense](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/7c8e57/32.png) [@Chessic\_Sense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chessic_Sense)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2011, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people-who-are-judged-to-be-both-good-and-evil/579888/18 "2011-04-27T16:54:48Z")
> [@JohnT](#): > > Bill Gates. If I have to list the reasons, you were asleep in the '90s. šŸ˜‰ I wasnā€™t asleep. I was in kindergarten. Care to elaborate? ---
**Author:** ![Beadalin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3be4f8/32.png) [@Beadalin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beadalin)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2011, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people-who-are-judged-to-be-both-good-and-evil/579888/19 "2011-04-27T17:01:57Z")
Che Guevara is a pretty polarizing figure. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2011, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people-who-are-judged-to-be-both-good-and-evil/579888/20 "2011-04-27T17:34:01Z")
> [@blood63](#): > > arbortionist Would that be a lumberjack, perchance? Seriously thoughā€¦ I think Napoleon is a great example, like **Shakester** said. As for Bill Gatesā€¦ he could be judged as good for the extraordinary amount of philanthropy heā€™s done and doing. On the other hand, the money for his philanthropic endeavors was gained by having extremelyl anti-competitive business practices, and other business practices that verged on extortion, which puts him in the evil camp. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people-who-are-judged-to-be-both-good-and-evil/579888.md?page=2)