# People who can't debate **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 7, 2011, 4:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people-who-cant-debate/602138 "2011-11-07T04:36:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![raskolnik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e47c2d/32.png) [@raskolnik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raskolnik)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2011, 4:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people-who-cant-debate/602138/1 "2011-11-07T04:36:47Z")
Seriously is there any way to have a debate with someone who doesn’t bother to read ANYTHING about the world, but has an opinion on everything. -One of my coworkers is a women in her late 50’s. She is Canadian, and is convinced the US and the PRC have an equally repressive government. She has also said that China has freedom of religion. I asked her about the underground Catholic CHurch, the status of Tibetan Buddhism, and the FG. She said “Well I don’t know what they are so it doesn’t matter, but America is worse.” -Is there any use in talking to this woman, or can I just write her off as an idiot? -Now, I haven’t even LIVED in the US most of my adult life, so I don’t understand where her attitude comes from. She attacks the US but only very subjective drivel like “The US is an armpit” I said “that’s an emotional argument, and not based on any facts.” By the way she also has said that “the UN, the BBC, and THE CHINESE PARTY’S OWN NEWSPAPER” were not trustworthy. -Really, I feel she is being willfully stupid, but still has opinions but no facts. She responds to a certain-person-being-in-prison-and-winning-a-nobel-prize with “That happens in America too!” Last time I checked we have MLKjr DAY in the US, not call him a traitor and lock up his family too. My head hurts. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2011, 5:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people-who-cant-debate/602138/2 "2011-11-07T05:03:12Z")
I’m not sure it’s possible to be willfully stupid unless you’re running for public office. ---
**Author:** ![Koxinga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/4af34b/32.png) [@Koxinga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Koxinga)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2011, 5:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people-who-cant-debate/602138/3 "2011-11-07T05:09:28Z")
This is just the break the McCain campaign has been waiting for! ETA: Oh, I thought you were talking about SDMB:GD/Elections. Sorry, carry on. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2011, 5:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people-who-cant-debate/602138/4 "2011-11-07T05:15:02Z")
I should have added “lobbyists” as a group who can be willfully ignorant, as they may be paid to lobby for some amazingly stupid causes without necessarily believing it themselves. ---
**Author:** ![Koxinga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/4af34b/32.png) [@Koxinga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Koxinga)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2011, 5:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people-who-cant-debate/602138/5 "2011-11-07T05:20:25Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > I should have added “lobbyists” as a group who can be willfully ignorant, as they may be paid to lobby for some amazingly stupid causes without necessarily believing it themselves. I’m not sure what you mean by “willfully ignorant.” Was Johnny Cochrane being willfully ignorant when he claimed that “if the glove don’t fit, you must acquit?” Or our own [Bricker](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=573733), for that matter? ---
**Author:** ![jz78817](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jz78817/32/1028_2.png) [@jz78817](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jz78817)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2011, 5:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people-who-cant-debate/602138/6 "2011-11-07T05:22:09Z")
> [@raskolnik](#): > > Seriously is there any way to have a debate with someone who doesn’t bother to read ANYTHING about the world, but has an opinion on everything. why do you think “having an opinion” is equivalent to “wants to debate?” Everybody on this fucking planet has an uninformed opinion of some sort; and not many of them want to get into a deep discussion of it. and no, you are not fucking _better_ than them so fuck off. ---
**Author:** ![Koxinga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/4af34b/32.png) [@Koxinga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Koxinga)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2011, 5:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people-who-cant-debate/602138/7 "2011-11-07T05:24:30Z")
> [@jz78817](#): > > why do you think “having an opinion” is equivalent to “wants to debate?” Everybody on this fucking planet has an uninformed opinion of some sort; and not many of them want to get into a deep discussion of it. and no, you are not fucking _better_ than them so fuck off. an take yer fancy book larnin’ wit you ---
**Author:** ![jz78817](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jz78817/32/1028_2.png) [@jz78817](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jz78817)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2011, 5:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people-who-cant-debate/602138/8 "2011-11-07T05:25:47Z")
> [@Koxinga](#): > > an take yer fancy book larnin’ wit you drop dead. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2011, 5:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people-who-cant-debate/602138/9 "2011-11-07T05:29:18Z")
> [@Koxinga](#): > > I’m not sure what you mean by “willfully ignorant.” Was Johnny Cochrane being willfully ignorant when he claimed that “if the glove don’t fit, you must acquit?” Or our own [Bricker](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=573733), for that matter? I could argue that he was lobbying for OJ. However, you might ask the OP the same question. I took it to mean “deliberately stupid”, though perhaps that’s not the best interpretation. But I think it’s pretty close to a more literal interpretation – if someone refuses to learn the facts in order to remain comfortable with their prejudices, that’s pretty stupid. I made an exception for lobbyists and politicians, who may pander to the idiots for their own calculated gain. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2011, 5:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people-who-cant-debate/602138/10 "2011-11-07T05:30:44Z")
On a scale of 1 to 5, the US and France rank as most free, China and Saudi Arabia rank as least free, North Korea is worse and Singapore is somewhere in between. That’s according to Freedom House. Maybe their wrong: maybe their extensive research is a big come-on. The world is scary – and suspicious things are suspicious! Right wing libertarians believe that in some sense all governments are equally repressive and they therefore side with the big corporations. I’m surprised your co-worker agrees with them! ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2011, 5:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people-who-cant-debate/602138/11 "2011-11-07T05:31:29Z")
> [@jz78817](#): > > why do you think “having an opinion” is equivalent to “wants to debate?” Everybody on this fucking planet has an uninformed opinion of some sort; and not many of them want to get into a deep discussion of it. and no, you are not fucking _better_ than them so fuck off. If you’re smarter, you generally _are_ better. This is where that “and take your fancy book lernin’ with ya” comment comes from: this statement shows a clear undervaluing of, you know, _actually having a fucking clue_. ---
**Author:** ![jz78817](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jz78817/32/1028_2.png) [@jz78817](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jz78817)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2011, 5:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people-who-cant-debate/602138/12 "2011-11-07T05:35:09Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > If you’re smarter, you generally _are_ better. This is where that “and take your fancy book lernin’ with ya” comment comes from: this statement shows a clear undervaluing of, you know, _actually having a fucking clue_. yes, because pointing out that even educated people can still have uninformed opinions makes one an inbred hick who don’t like no book learnin’. is it lonely up there on your fucking pedestal? ---
**Author:** ![Koxinga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/4af34b/32.png) [@Koxinga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Koxinga)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2011, 5:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people-who-cant-debate/602138/13 "2011-11-07T05:37:30Z")
You can still go to community college, you know. There’s no need to be so angry. ---
**Author:** ![raskolnik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e47c2d/32.png) [@raskolnik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raskolnik)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2011, 5:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people-who-cant-debate/602138/14 "2011-11-07T05:59:43Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > On a scale of 1 to 5, the US and France rank as most free, China and Saudi Arabia rank as least free, North Korea is worse and Singapore is somewhere in between. That’s according to Freedom House. Maybe their wrong: maybe their extensive research is a big come-on. The world is scary – and suspicious things are suspicious! The woman ignores all facts and all organizations if they don’t agree with her emotional opinions. She’d say to that “Who is freedomhouse? They like France, they are wrong and silly.” Is there really any justification for this[her] type of thinking? ---
**Author:** ![jz78817](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jz78817/32/1028_2.png) [@jz78817](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jz78817)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2011, 6:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people-who-cant-debate/602138/15 "2011-11-07T06:01:10Z")
> [@raskolnik](#): > > The woman ignores all facts and all organizations if they don’t agree with her emotional opinions. She’d say to that “Who is freedomhouse? They like France, they are wrong and silly.” Is there really any justification for this[her] type of thinking? no, but what the fuck does that have to do with wanting to “debate?” ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2011, 8:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people-who-cant-debate/602138/16 "2011-11-07T08:17:09Z")
_Having_ an opinion doesn’t mean you want to debate, but the moment you _assert_ that opinion, you’re debating. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2011, 10:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people-who-cant-debate/602138/17 "2011-11-07T10:14:00Z")
> [@jz78817](#): > > yes, because pointing out that even educated people can still have uninformed opinions makes one an inbred hick who don’t like no book learnin’. I’ll defend your right to defend the rights of the stupid. ---
**Author:** ![Harborwolf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Harborwolf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Harborwolf)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2011, 12:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people-who-cant-debate/602138/18 "2011-11-07T12:14:25Z")
> [@jz78817](#): > > yes, because pointing out that even educated people can still have uninformed opinions makes one an inbred hick who don’t like no book learnin’. > > is it lonely up there on your fucking pedestal? I try to be as nice about this sort of thing as possible. Lord knows I’m a moron occasionally. Well constantly but this isn’t about me. Thing is I try not to fire off like an expert. If I’m not sure, I qualify as opinion or simply look into the matter further. So when, to use a recent example, a coworker insists that the HAARP project causes earthquakes and hurricanes (it really doesn’t), that I should read The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich (I did) because the pre-WWII conditions in Germany very closely mirror our own current economic crisis (it doesn’t), and that we should all stop making our car payments because the economy and civilization will collapse and we’ll need the money to stock up on canned food or invest in gold (😕), you are goddamned right I feel better than someone. It’s not really putting ones self up on a pedestal as being aware that certain people are lowering themselves. They aren’t necessarily ignorant hicks lacking in book “larnin,” but \*they are choosing to ignore a portion of reality \*that doesn’t conform to their uninformed opinions. ---
**Author:** ![elbows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b3f665/32.png) [@elbows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elbows)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2011, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people-who-cant-debate/602138/19 "2011-11-07T13:34:19Z")
It’s never your job to shape other people. Oh, and it takes all kinds of people to make a world. I can’t understand _why_ you’d want to debate with this level of intellect? One word, that really helps, with these types, in my experience, is ‘Indeed!’. Smile, nod, throw out an occasional ‘er’ or ‘um’, then, ‘indeed!’, and you’re done. No debate. Why would you bother? ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2011, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people-who-cant-debate/602138/20 "2011-11-07T13:56:18Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > _Having_ an opinion doesn’t mean you want to debate, but the moment you _assert_ that opinion, you’re debating. This. When you post your opinion on the open forum of ideas, be that SDMB, Youtube, or even Facebook, you lose the right to say “that’s just my opinion” as a defense. You either have to stand by your statement and defend it from criticism, or abandon your public statement and leave people to wonder what it means about you (i.e. people will think better of you if you reassess your statement honestly; people will think you’re a jackass if you just remove it from the public eye because people called you on your bullshit). [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people-who-cant-debate/602138.md?page=2)