# People who complain about wind turbine plans. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 30, 2003, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people-who-complain-about-wind-turbine-plans/191934 "2003-07-30T17:04:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 16\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Rick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9f8e36/32.png) [@Rick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2003, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people-who-complain-about-wind-turbine-plans/191934/121 "2003-08-08T16:14:50Z")
Talking about views and all that. In the 1960’s oil rigs started popping up in the Santa Barbara channel. Now there are so many from the shore it almost looks like you could walk from one to another. Am I wild about them? No. But since I usually see them while driving a car that got gas from the oil they produce, I realize that they are necessary. Hasn’t hurt the land values, or tourism one bit. ---
**Author:** ![GusNSpot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gusnspot/32/436_2.png) [@GusNSpot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GusNSpot)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2003, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people-who-complain-about-wind-turbine-plans/191934/122 "2003-08-09T18:36:11Z")
I drive by several coal fired electrical plants on a regular basis. I used to inventory their coal supplies from the air using aerial mapping photogrammetry methods. Flown all over a 5 state area doing the different plants over the years. Anthracite is correct in that not all of them blights on the country side. Some are actually kind of neat and clean looking. The amount of STEAM coming from the cooling towers is sometimes kind of impressive and if the wind was wrong, could even hamper the photo session. The locals all seem to enjoy the prosperity and increase in land values and the great schools that are a consequence of having them in their counties. As to pollution, I heard some where that cows farting was the most dangerous thing the world is facing at this time as far as dangerous pollution is concerned. YMMV 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2003, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people-who-complain-about-wind-turbine-plans/191934/123 "2003-08-09T23:00:59Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by GusNSpot \* > \*\*I drive by several coal fired electrical plants on a regular basis. > > I used to inventory their coal supplies from the air using aerial mapping photogrammetry methods. Flown all over a 5 state area doing the different plants over the years.\*\* Gus, you used to do coal pile inventories? Cool! I never knew. I’ve done the calculations from the photos, but never met anyone who took the pics. 🆒 ---
**Author:** ![spinky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/59ef9b/32.png) [@spinky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spinky)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2003, 12:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people-who-complain-about-wind-turbine-plans/191934/124 "2003-08-10T12:52:05Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by World Eater \* > :rolleyes: I’m sorry, I must be slow. What exactly are you rolling your eyes at? The idea that you support the “how about in their back yard” view? “I roll my eyes at you” is not exactly a well-thought-out rebuttal, but if you don’t have anything better to say, I guess it will have to do. ---
**Author:** ![Grey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b782af/32.png) [@Grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grey)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2003, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people-who-complain-about-wind-turbine-plans/191934/125 "2003-08-11T17:27:41Z")
I’m likely going to regret bringing this thread back to life but here we go. **tdn** was heading to the Nantucket area over the weekend. Previously in this thread I asked if he would report back on the pilot tower that has been raised. I’m hoping he is keeping his eye on this thread and can get back to us with local views and his impression of the tower and its visual impact. ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2003, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people-who-complain-about-wind-turbine-plans/191934/126 "2003-08-11T17:36:26Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by ntucker \* > \*\*I’m sorry, I must be slow. What exactly are you rolling your eyes at? The idea that you support the “how about in their back yard” view? “I roll my eyes at you” is not exactly a well-thought-out rebuttal, but if you don’t have anything better to say, I guess it will have to do. \*\* I was rolling my eyes at your inane suggestion to"give it a few more thousand posts". You _must_ be slow because a 3 year old could have gleaned the intent of them. ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2003, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people-who-complain-about-wind-turbine-plans/191934/127 "2003-08-11T17:39:53Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Grey \* > \*\*I’m likely going to regret bringing this thread back to life but here we go. > > **tdn** was heading to the Nantucket area over the weekend. Previously in this thread I asked if he would report back on the pilot tower that has been raised. I’m hoping he is keeping his eye on this thread and can get back to us with local views and his impression of the tower and its visual impact. \*\* If we don’t hear back from him in a few days, let’s all assume he was so distraught by the appearance of the tower, that he flung himself into the Grand Canyon. Here’s hoping the garbage breaks his fall. ---
**Author:** ![Grey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b782af/32.png) [@Grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grey)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2003, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people-who-complain-about-wind-turbine-plans/191934/128 "2003-08-11T17:41:55Z")
Cheap shot. ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2003, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people-who-complain-about-wind-turbine-plans/191934/129 "2003-08-11T17:45:56Z")
Sorry, couldn’t resist. ---
**Author:** ![Grey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b782af/32.png) [@Grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grey)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2003, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people-who-complain-about-wind-turbine-plans/191934/130 "2003-08-11T19:54:19Z")
Look, say we’re right and visually these things can blend away. If we piss off the people currently opposing the towers, make it personal, we simply make it harder for them to agree with our position. No one likes being publicly spanked and then made to meekly agree with their tormentors. If we’re wrong, we look like asses and those opposed get a chance to revel in victory over the alternative power bunch, maybe even look for future chances to do it again for the sheer thrill. Either way wind power looses potential supporters. ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2003, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people-who-complain-about-wind-turbine-plans/191934/131 "2003-08-11T20:28:02Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Grey \* > \*\*Look, say we’re right and visually these things can blend away. > > If we piss off the people currently opposing the towers, make it personal, we simply make it harder for them to agree with our position. No one likes being publicly spanked and then made to meekly agree with their tormentors. > > If we’re wrong, we look like asses and those opposed get a chance to revel in victory over the alternative power bunch, maybe even look for future chances to do it again for the sheer thrill. > > Either way wind power looses potential supporters. \*\* I agree with the gist of what you’re saying here, but this has little to do with my original beef. I _still_ think that people who oppose these types of things _solely_ on the basis of their appearance (which may or may not be people in this thread, but they are out there) are shallow and I doubt anything will change my perception of that. This isn’t about being right or wrong, it’s about addressing what seems to be a cultural attitude, and an impediment to a better world. ---
**Author:** ![spinky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/59ef9b/32.png) [@spinky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spinky)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2003, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people-who-complain-about-wind-turbine-plans/191934/132 "2003-08-11T22:14:49Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by World Eater \* > I was rolling my eyes at your inane suggestion to"give it a few more thousand posts". You _must_ be slow because a 3 year old could have gleaned the intent of them. Well, then you did a lousy job of editing your post, because you included “so yes, you are saying that” in the quote and completely failed to rebut it. The natural interpretation is that the eye-roll _was_ your rebuttal. Failed communication is not always the recipient’s fault. You deny that you’ve got a “How about in their back yard” attitude because some researchers thought of it before you. Doesn’t that same logic absolve **tdn** of NIMBYism? I mean, I’m sure he isn’t the one that originated the “it will hurt tourism” argument… > [@](#): > > I find people rejecting clean alternative energy simply because of the way it looks to be equally revolting. You seem incapable of realizing that the issue is not simply “the way it looks”, but rather the economic impact of “the way it looks.” Aesthetics sound like a shallow reason for rejecting the windmills, but since the area’s livelihood is based on something shallow (tourism) by definition, it’s a perfectly valid consideration. Regardless, they should reject the windmills for whatever reasons they please. It’s **their** town. Strive for self-sufficiency, not forcing others into helping you. ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2003, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people-who-complain-about-wind-turbine-plans/191934/133 "2003-08-12T00:00:26Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by ntucker \* > **Well, then you did a lousy job of editing your post, because you included “so yes, you are saying that” in the quote and completely failed to rebut it.** What the hell are you talking about? You sure you have the right thread? \*\* > [@](#): > > The natural interpretation is that the eye-roll _was_ your > rebuttal. \*\* Yes, where is the problem? You said “ **So yes, you are saying that.You’re just a slow learner. Give it a few more thousand posts.** ” and I replied by rolling my eyes. Then you said “ **I’m sorry, I must be slow. What exactly are you rolling your eyes at?** ” Do you understand now? \*\* > [@](#): > > Failed communication is not always the recipient’s fault.\*\* No, not always, but In this case it is. \*\* > [@](#): > > You deny that you’ve got a “How about in their back yard” attitude because some researchers thought of it before you. \*\* You need to stop huffing glue because you aren’t making any sense. Please clarify what you are talking about. \*\* > [@](#): > > Doesn’t that same logic absolve **tdn** of NIMBYism? I mean, I’m sure he isn’t the one that originated the “it will hurt tourism” argument…\*\* Why would anything absolve him, he’s against it for (IMHO) some fairly shallow reasons, whoops, I mean _a_ (again IMHO) fairly shallow _reason_. Had he mentioned this reason in _addition_ to environment impact or made an effort to outline the possible economic impact I might have respected his POV a bit more, but he didn’t so I don’t. \*\* > [@](#): > > You seem incapable of realizing that the issue is not simply “the way it looks”, but rather the economic impact of “the way it looks.” \*\* If that was the actual case I would agree, but I don’t. I think what’s going on here is “the way it looks” is _exactly_ the problem. \*\* > [@](#): > > Aesthetics sound like a shallow reason for rejecting the windmills, but since the area’s livelihood is based on something shallow (tourism) by definition, it’s a perfectly valid consideration.\*\* Yes it is, but the cynic in me tells me that this is simply a classic case of NIMBY. \*\* > [@](#): > > Regardless, they should reject the windmills for whatever reasons they please. It’s **their** town. \*\* I’m curious about who controls the water 6 miles off the coast, which may not fall under their jurisdiction. \*\* > [@](#): > > Strive for self-sufficiency, not forcing others into helping you. \*\* I figure there’s more positive results in unity and sharing of resources. ---
**Author:** ![spinky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/59ef9b/32.png) [@spinky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spinky)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2003, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people-who-complain-about-wind-turbine-plans/191934/134 "2003-08-12T23:10:13Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by World Eater \* > > > [@](#): > > > > \*Originally posted by ntucker \* > > You deny that you’ve got a “How about in their back yard” attitude because some researchers thought of it before you. > > You need to stop huffing glue because you aren’t making any sense. Please clarify what you are talking about. I’m talking about the post where you said, “People who conducted research and found that Cape Cod would be a prime location for a wind farm are the ones that said ‘how about your backyard?’, **not me**.” (emphasis mine) > [@](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > You seem incapable of realizing that the issue is not simply “the way it looks”, but rather the economic impact of “the way it looks.” > > If that was the actual case I would agree, but I don’t. I think what’s going on here is “the way it looks” is _exactly_ the problem. Can’t you read? He is talking about the impact on tourism. Here’s a quote from his first post in the thread: “They will be an eyesore in a tourist area where a lack of eyesores is a major attraction. They will lower property values. They are a butt-ugly sight being put where peoples’ livelihoods depend on an absence of butt-ugly sights.” How about this for an argument? **I** don’t think you should force ugly windmills on cape cod for the exact same reasons **tdn** does (potential economic impact on tourism). Am I a NIMBY? Highly unlikely, given that I live on the west coast and have no personal interest in Cape Cod whatsoever. I just happen to respect their freedom. > [@](#): > > Yes it is, but the cynic in me tells me that this is simply a classic case of NIMBY. Well, the cynic in you is pulling things directly from its ass. If the cynic in you wants to assume the worst about people rather than listening to what they say, you’re going to be treated like the blathering idiot you are. ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2003, 1:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people-who-complain-about-wind-turbine-plans/191934/135 "2003-08-13T13:40:30Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by ntucker \* > **I’m talking about the post where you said, “People who conducted research and found that Cape Cod would be a prime location for a wind farm are the ones that said ‘how about your backyard?’, not me.” (emphasis mine)** Look, the researchers picked the place. Somebody scouted out locations, conducted studies, etc, and they came up with _that_ particular area. So because I agree with wind farms being placed _anywhere_, and some egghead researchers said this is a prime spot (which falls under my anywhere requirement), that gives me a “put it in their backyard” attitude? Anytime they want to put these things 6 miles off the coast of East Hampton, they’ll have my blessing. \*\* > [@](#): > > Can’t you read? He is talking about the impact on tourism. Here’s a quote from his first post in the thread: “They will be an eyesore in a tourist area where a lack of eyesores is a major attraction. They will lower property values. They are a butt-ugly sight being put where peoples’ livelihoods depend on an absence of butt-ugly sights.”\*\* Pretty fucking dramatic. People’s livelihoods will be affected? Give me a break. I doubt property values would be affected at all. \*\* > [@](#): > > How about this for an argument? **I** don’t think you should force ugly windmills on cape cod for the exact same reasons **tdn** does (potential economic impact on tourism).\*\* It’s nice to know that we can reject alternative energy on the basis of _the potential economic impact on tourism_. Seriously, that warms my fucking heart to the core, because that means we have far bigger problems. What a vague load of shit that is, people running for the hills because of some structures on the horizon. How many views are affected by the way? I bet at least 75% of Cape Cod is unaffected. \*\* > [@](#): > > Am I a NIMBY? Highly unlikely, given that I live on the west coast and have no personal interest in Cape Cod whatsoever.\*\* I think someone who disagrees with the plan doesn’t have to be NIMBY. NIMBY people strike me more as knee jerkish, and don’t want something there “just because”. It’s an attitude, not how where you stand on a position. (of course you have to be against to be a NIMBY). \*\* > [@](#): > > I just happen to respect their freedom.\*\* This is a stupid thing to say. Nothing to do with anything. \*\* > [@](#): > > Well, the cynic in you is pulling things directly from its ass. If the cynic in you wants to assume the worst about people rather than listening to what they say, you’re going to be treated like the blathering idiot you are. \*\* Well take a look around, the world is filled selfish shallow twits who would fuck your mother over for a nickel. There are plenty of smart people around, but they are getting fewer and further between. ---
**Author:** ![spinky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/59ef9b/32.png) [@spinky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spinky)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2003, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people-who-complain-about-wind-turbine-plans/191934/136 "2003-08-13T17:43:31Z")
> [@](#): > > It’s nice to know that we can reject alternative energy on the basis of the potential economic impact on tourism. Your fallacy is thinking that alternative energy has been rejected. It hasn’t. I think windmills are great _because_ of their low impact. But I wouldn’t dream of putting them anyplace where they had a significant economic impact, and I think people in a given area should be free to evaluate the impact on their area for themselves. Your lack of sympathy for them and disinterest in preserving their views don’t change that. You trivialize the problem, saying “what’s a little tiny blight on the view? it makes hardly any difference,” but _the entire point_ of visiting cape cod may be that it’s so beautiful because it’s **pristine**. Maybe you don’t think so, and maybe that’s not actually the reason, but I think the people who make their incomes based on tourism there are not only more _qualified_ to make that call than you are, but they have more _right_ to make that call. > [@](#): > > NIMBY people strike me more as knee jerkish, and don’t want something there “just because”. “Just because” is the reasoning you apparently attribute to someone when you’ve decided that you don’t like their _actual_ reasons (or just refuse to listen to them). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people-who-complain-about-wind-turbine-plans/191934.md?page=6)