# People who don't tip **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 8, 2007, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people-who-dont-tip/407327 "2007-06-08T23:45:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2007, 1:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people-who-dont-tip/407327/141 "2007-06-11T13:44:14Z")
[QUOTE=Cerowyn] I didn’t offer an opinion before, but I will now. I object to tipping on principle. People should have a little pride in doing the job they’re paid for. Meeting the bare minimum requirements (e.g., pizza arrives on time and reasonably edible) is _not_ grounds for getting extra money out of me. However… I do tip, and pretty generously. Despite my philosophical objections, I know that the drivers and wait-staff get paid less than they should, because our society has this fucked up idea ingrained. I would much, much rather those workers get better pay and remove the cultural expectation of a tip, even if it meant paying a bit more in certain sectors. Instead, I get to fund the assholes who put are too cheap to toe the line that we’re too messed up to get rid of. [/QUOTE] My philosophy as well. I tip, fairly well, but I hate it. And what I really hate is that I tip amounts keep creeping up, which means fewer people tip, which means waiters want more from me to make up for getting stiffed by someone else. I think tipping is Liberatarianism in Action - we get to choose to pay or not to pay and how much to pay for service, and some people choose not to pay and let those of us who feel an obligation pick up the slack. At the same time, I dislike listening to waitstaff and delivery drivers gripe about people who don’t tip - don’t like the setup, go to work in an industry that isn’t so tip dependant. Yeah, I know it isn’t always that simple and sometimes sloshing coffee around Perkins is the only job you can find. I also know that when asked “well, why don’t you find another job” occationally the retort is “no way, I made $200 in tips Friday night, cash - I can’t make that anywhere else, I just don’t like working Tuesdays.” OK, then, stop bitching. ---
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2007, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people-who-dont-tip/407327/142 "2007-06-11T13:58:38Z")
[QUOTE=CynicalGabe] What’s with people who don’t tip? [/QUOTE] In the USA, non-tippers are either ignorant or assholes. Or both. Since this seems to be a pizza-delivery thread: I generally pay the driver $3. More for bad weather, etc. My neighborhood pizza place doesn’t charge for delivery. The guy at the phone always gives me an approximate delivery time–45 minutes to an hour. But the pizza often comes sooner. I’ve worked in food service. For “nicer” self service places, I’ll tip a buck or two. And maybe leave a bit of change on the table for the guys doing the bussing. ---
**Author:** ![stegon66](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ee59a6/32.png) [@stegon66](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stegon66)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2007, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people-who-dont-tip/407327/143 "2007-06-11T14:05:54Z")
> [@](#): > > This may work for you, but the last time I checked, I earn my salary; not you or anyone else. I can do whatever I please with my money. If being a critical tipper is an approach I take when spending that money, then that is my option. Frankly, I am too fucking tired of everyone else having their hands out, wanting something extra for nothing. Well said, though you could have left out the ‘cunts’ remark. I find it amazing the number of people here who insist that one should tip every type of service worker. Do you people tip supermarket cashiers? Do you tip the mailman? Do you fucking tip airline pilots? (“Thanks for getting us here safely pal, here’s a grand!”) Hell, why not send a tip to the President? Seriously, why the fuck not? He is after all, working for us and providing a service. :rolleyes: Hey, if you’re well off financially, that’s fine, blow your money, but I’m not rich and I refuse to be goaded into thinking I should have to tip everyone for every little thing (usually by superior-minded folks). And I WORK in the food service industry. People I will tip: Waitstaff who make less than minimum wage (depending on their service of course - I WILL tip big for great service) Pizza delivery guys (I’ll tip them a little something, but I refuse to give them a $5 tip for delivering a $10 pizza, especially in my relatively small town where the max drive time is probably 20 minutes round trip) Bartenders (I usually just have a couple of beers and let them keep the change after paying for each beer (which would generally be .50 to .75 - not bad for what amounts to handing me a bottle of beer)) Barbers (generally $2 for a $10 haircut) Prostitutes (really nice blowjob tonight baby, here’s an extra $10) 😃 Also, I’d tip hotel porters and grocery store baggers who help me take stuff to my car (rare instances for me in either case so it’s not really an issue). ---
**Author:** ![Bites\_When\_Provoked](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bites_when_provoked/32/18073_2.png) [@Bites\_When\_Provoked](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bites_When_Provoked)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2007, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people-who-dont-tip/407327/144 "2007-06-11T14:09:58Z")
[QUOTE=Martini Enfield] These are my thoughts as well. Every time we have this Tipping discussion, it breaks down like this: **Australians** : You don’t tip here. Of course, if Americans want to give us even more money for doing our jobs anyway, we won’t say no. **Americans** : You do too have to tip in Australia! Here’s an article/website (aimed at Americans) which says 10% tip is expected in restaurants! **Australians** : Err, that’s great, but we live here, and we’re telling you that you don’t have to tip. **Americans** : You must be stingy or something, or perhaps you don’t know the customs in your own country. **Australians** : Fine, we give up. Americans are expected to tip 10%, Australians aren’t. How’s that? The closest most Australians come to tipping is letting the taxi driver keep the change (to an extent) from a cab fare. On the Pizza Delivery thing: The Pizza Delivery surcharge here does go to the driver. Pizza Delivery Drivers also get paid reasonably well (about AUD$12/hr plus $3/delivery), so there’s no reason to tip as a result. [/QUOTE] Thanks for getting that out there. I get really sick of going down this road all the time because someone thinks that an American newspaper knows more about the customs of a country than the people living there. (Admittedly, I think Sydney’s working hard at becoming Little America and may well go into tipping as a standard eventually, but elsewhere it’s definitely business as usual.) I don’t tip, though if I’m dealing direct with a cashier (supermarkets, fast-food places, etc) I’ll often just keep the notes from my change and leave the shrapnel with a “That’s okay; keep it for the ‘unders and overs’ jar for the next till reconciliation.” Having worked tills before I know how rarely it actually exactly balances from week to week, and it’s usually out just by a matter of a few cents to a couple of dollars. Rest easy, though, American-type peoples! Having been thoroughly primed by my experiences here I shall not be the Ugly Australian who stiffs the poor service folks. I shall tip generously and always err on the side of caution. It is far more likely that I will tip people who don’t even expect it, but nobody’s gonna say that \*this \*Australian stiffed them! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![DudleyGarrett](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d9b06d/32.png) [@DudleyGarrett](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DudleyGarrett)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2007, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people-who-dont-tip/407327/145 "2007-06-11T15:10:32Z")
[QUOTE=samclem] OK, **Dud**. Here you go. After reading about 200+ of your posts, I now think I have a better idea of who you are. I casually read your post to this thread, just before I posted my reply. I was afraid I posted in haste. But now I don’t think so. You, like many people, see the world in a Black and White image. If it doesn’t fit into your world-view, it’s wrong. [/quote] Actually I don’t “see the world” as a Black and White image. That’s quite the generalization. I do however see the guidelines of pizza delivery as pretty black and white: 1. Go to pizza shop. 2. Punch in. 3. Get pizzas from on top of the oven, already-boxed. 4. Drive to delivery locations. 5. Deliver pizzas. Oh wait, you’re right, there’re all sorts of areas to be gray there. > [@](#): > > You’re almost _obsessed_ with the issue of tipping. Since you’ve joined, you’ve posted your views in any thread in which this is an issue. To your credit, you said you usually tip 15-20%. Unless there’s a problem. Good on you for that. > > But you seem to have a hard-on about the subject in general. Not obsessed, but angry with the issue of people demanding things from others for doing absolutely nothing. Tipping is just a small piece of that. I also don’t care for people bitching when they don’t get what they want. > [@](#): > > To add to the anecdotal post of **levdrakon** , I have a friend who delivered pizzas(at the age of 45) for two years, as a second job, to pay off child support payments. He had a Masters Degree in Chemistry. Good on him, but if you’re even thinking that he is the norm, you’re flat-out insane. ---
**Author:** ![DudleyGarrett](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d9b06d/32.png) [@DudleyGarrett](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DudleyGarrett)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2007, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people-who-dont-tip/407327/146 "2007-06-11T15:11:55Z")
[QUOTE=pulykamell] Fuck…most of the places I go to give 30 minutes for _pick-up_. Sometimes 45 minutes if it’s really busy. Delivery is usually at least 45 minutes, up to an hour fifteen. [/QUOTE] That’s crazy. There are a couple of pizza places within a 5 minute drive of my house. If I call it in, by the time I get my shoes on and get to the pizza place, I’ll usually wait around for 5 minutes and the pizza’s ready. ---
**Author:** ![DudleyGarrett](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d9b06d/32.png) [@DudleyGarrett](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DudleyGarrett)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2007, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people-who-dont-tip/407327/147 "2007-06-11T15:18:08Z")
[QUOTE=mhendo] I tend to agree with you about the restaurant owners short-changing their staff. I come from a country where tipping is not required, and where waitstaff are paid a decent wage, and i like that system. But the fact is that restaurant owners in America are allowed to short-change their waitstaff because the government—elected by the American people—allows them to. There are specific exemptions in the minimum wage laws for tipped employees, those exemptions rely on the assumption that tips will make up the difference, and the American people bear the burden of responsibility for these laws. [/QUOTE] This isn’t true. “If an employee’s tips combined with the employer’s direct wages of at least $2.13 an hour do not equal the federal minimum hourly wage, the employer must make up the difference.” [So says the US Government’s Department of Labor Website.](http://www.dol.gov/esa/minwage/q-a.htm) ---
**Author:** ![fluiddruid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/c2a13f/32.png) [@fluiddruid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fluiddruid)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2007, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people-who-dont-tip/407327/148 "2007-06-11T15:33:16Z")
[QUOTE=Pixiesnix] Folks, you’re all wasting your time. After tangling with him in the minirants thread, I’ve figured him out. He’s a bitter, angry man who feels the need to take it out on those in the service industry. In his mind, we should all be licking his boots and when he kicks us in the teeth, we’re supposed to thank him for the spontaneous dentistry. [/QUOTE] Agreed. He’s the “the customer is always right!” type, who is hostile against those he perceives as his inferiors. I think this thread is fairly evident that his perception is that service workers basically deserve being treated poorly; after all, since he doesn’t work in service, he must be a better person. Except for that whole being a tightwad, freeloading douchebag thing, of course. ---
**Author:** ![DudleyGarrett](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d9b06d/32.png) [@DudleyGarrett](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DudleyGarrett)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2007, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people-who-dont-tip/407327/149 "2007-06-11T15:34:03Z")
[QUOTE=fluiddruid] Agreed. He’s the “the customer is always right!” type… [/quote] Wrong. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2007, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people-who-dont-tip/407327/150 "2007-06-11T16:05:14Z")
[QUOTE=DudleyGarrett] This isn’t true. “If an employee’s tips combined with the employer’s direct wages of at least $2.13 an hour do not equal the federal minimum hourly wage, the employer must make up the difference.” [So says the US Government’s Department of Labor Website.](http://www.dol.gov/esa/minwage/q-a.htm) [/QUOTE] Nothing i said is incorrect, and nothing i said is contradicted by your cite. I was well aware of that rule when i made my post. Remember, YOU are the one who initially made the assertion that “restauranteurs are guilty of short-changing their waitstaff, and the burden rests on the public’s shoulders to compensate.” I assumed, not unreasonably i think, that by this you meant that restaurants are allowed to pay less than minimum wage, and that the public is expected to supplement waiters’ income with tips. I simply responded: > [@mhendo](#): > > But the fact is that restaurant owners in America are allowed to short-change their waitstaff because the government—elected by the American people—allows them to. There are specific exemptions in the minimum wage laws for tipped employees, those exemptions rely on the assumption that tips will make up the difference, and the American people bear the burden of responsibility for these laws. There is not a single incorrect statement in that quote. If by “short-change” you meant “pay less than regular minimum wage on the assumption that tips will make up the rest,” then it is a simple fact that this option is open to restaurant owners due to the actions of American legislators. Hell, your own cite shows this to be the case. That there are “specific exemptions in the minimum wage laws for tipped employees” is also a fact. The employers, as you have noted, do have to make up the minimum wage if tips are not sufficient, but this doesn’t change the fact that the minimum wage laws treat tipped employees differently from other employees. That the exemptions in the minimum wage laws “rely on the assumption that tips will make up the difference” is also a fact, as demonstrated by your own citation from the Department of Labor. And that “the American people bear the burden of responsibility for these laws” should be obvious to anyone with a third-grade education. If you haven’t yet reached that point, i apologize for assuming otherwise. ---
**Author:** ![CynicalGabe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/3e96dc/32.png) [@CynicalGabe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CynicalGabe)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2007, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people-who-dont-tip/407327/151 "2007-06-11T16:15:11Z")
[QUOTE=DudleyGarrett] Sorry, chump, you shouldda stayed in college. [/QUOTE] I just finished my Master’s degree, dickface. ---
**Author:** ![DudleyGarrett](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d9b06d/32.png) [@DudleyGarrett](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DudleyGarrett)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2007, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people-who-dont-tip/407327/152 "2007-06-11T16:43:40Z")
[QUOTE=CynicalGabe] I just finished my Master’s degree, dickface. [/QUOTE] And you’re delivering pizzas? Why, dickface? ---
**Author:** ![Fuji](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a9a28c/32.png) [@Fuji](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fuji)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2007, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people-who-dont-tip/407327/153 "2007-06-11T16:44:42Z")
[QUOTE=TokyoPlayer] That is seriously fucked up. If I were to see that my assumption is that the money would go to the driver. It seems to be deliberately misleading by management in order to gain revenue at the expense of the employee. [/QUOTE] Former pizza guy here. **TokyoPlayer** nailed it in one. Where I worked, the owner knew that it would adversely affect drivers’ incomes, but didn’t care. She did it because she didn’t have to pay meal tax to the state on a delivery charge. And no, we didn’t get any of the charge. Bitch. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2007, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people-who-dont-tip/407327/154 "2007-06-11T16:45:07Z")
[QUOTE=DudleyGarrett] That’s crazy. There are a couple of pizza places within a 5 minute drive of my house. If I call it in, by the time I get my shoes on and get to the pizza place, I’ll usually wait around for 5 minutes and the pizza’s ready. [/QUOTE] Obviously your pizza place must not be as busy as mine or must have bigger/more ovens than mine. If there were absolutely no line, it would take about 12-15 minutes to make a pizza here: Roll out the dough (1 min) , stack on the ingredients (1-2 min), stick 'em in the oven (10 or so min), box 'em (1 min). Some places may take longer to cook, and if you get a deep dish, forget about it. This assumes you’re at the front of the queue. During busy times, it’s not unusual for my pie to take at least 20-30 minutes before it gets to the oven. ---
**Author:** ![Fuji](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a9a28c/32.png) [@Fuji](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fuji)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2007, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people-who-dont-tip/407327/155 "2007-06-11T16:48:05Z")
[QUOTE=DudleyGarrett] And you’re delivering pizzas? Why, dickface? [/QUOTE] I know that I’m not the dickface in question, but it is pretty fucking rude of you to be making all these assumptions about people who work in the service industry. Similar to **CynicalGabe** , I have a couple graduate degrees. I delivered pizzas for a while so that I could give my entire focus to my music career (such as it was), not have to deal with other people’s schedules and routines, and still make a decent living. We’re not all mouth-breathers, you know. ---
**Author:** ![DudleyGarrett](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d9b06d/32.png) [@DudleyGarrett](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DudleyGarrett)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2007, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people-who-dont-tip/407327/156 "2007-06-11T16:57:36Z")
[QUOTE=Fuji] I know that I’m not the dickface in question, but it is pretty fucking rude of you to be making all these assumptions about people who work in the service industry. Similar to **CynicalGabe** , I have a couple graduate degrees. I delivered pizzas for a while so that I could give my entire focus to my music career (such as it was), not have to deal with other people’s schedules and routines, and still make a decent living. We’re not all mouth-breathers, you know. [/QUOTE] You don’t seem like a mouth-breather, no, but **CynicalGabe** was the first to introduce the “dickface” moniker. Just making that clear – at no point in this thread did I attack anyone first. I can understand someone who’s going through graduate school delivering pizzas, and I can also understand someone who falls on some bad luck doing it to make ends meet – but you’d think those with Master’s degrees (especially liberal arts based graduate degrees) would understand the burden the customer bares to make up for cheap restauranteurs. You’d think someone with a Master’s degree would understand the potential for their wages being truncated due to our tipping system, and would probably avoid it. It’s the high school drop outs with their hands out who often raise the biggest bitch flags when they don’t get the tip they think they’re _entitled_ to. ---
**Author:** ![Fuji](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a9a28c/32.png) [@Fuji](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fuji)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2007, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people-who-dont-tip/407327/157 "2007-06-11T17:32:53Z")
[QUOTE=DudleyGarrett] You don’t seem like a mouth-breather, no, but **CynicalGabe** was the first to introduce the “dickface” moniker. Just making that clear – at no point in this thread did I attack anyone first. I can understand someone who’s going through graduate school delivering pizzas, and I can also understand someone who falls on some bad luck doing it to make ends meet – **but you’d think those with Master’s degrees (especially liberal arts based graduate degrees) would understand the burden the customer bares to make up for cheap restauranteurs.** You’d think someone with a Master’s degree would understand the potential for their wages being truncated due to our tipping system, and would probably avoid it. It’s the high school drop outs with their hands out who often raise the biggest bitch flags when they don’t get the tip they think they’re _entitled_ to. [/QUOTE] See, the thing is, though - those restauranteurs you deride as “cheap” operate with in an economic system in which any individual actor does not have the power to alter the system. What are they supposed to do? Unilaterally raise their wages and forbid gratuities to their drivers? In a culture where there is a widespread perception that it is appropriate to tip for food delivery service, your drivers will still get tips from those who choose to do so. However, with the higher wages you offer, your prices you charge the cutomer will also have to increase. As such, your sales will inevitably suffer. Meanwhile, the really cheap bastards who refuse to tip will call your competitor to get a cheaper pie, and stiff the driver. Over the long run, as I’m sure you’re aware of, your pizza place will eventually go out of business (most restaurants operate on thin profit margins). Look, I understand you and many people don’t like to tip. Fine. But that is the system we have in place in the USA. As others have pointed out to you, if you order food and don’t tell them that you won’t tip, you are undertaking a petty fraud, as one who accepts the rights of the customer but refuses to acknowledge the concomitant responsibilities. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2007, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people-who-dont-tip/407327/158 "2007-06-11T17:35:39Z")
[QUOTE=DudleyGarrett] I do however see the guidelines of pizza delivery as pretty black and white: 1. Go to pizza shop. 2. Punch in. 3. Get pizzas from on top of the oven, already-boxed. 4. Drive to delivery locations. 5. Deliver pizzas. Oh wait, you’re right, there’re all sorts of areas to be gray there. [/QUOTE] Not that it will make a difference to you, but this list constitues maybe one-tenth (or less) of the typical daily duties I had when I worked as a delivery driver. We were also required to perform a lot of food prep duties, take orders, often participate on the makeline making the orders, take them from the oven and cut and box them, and do a lot of closing work (dishwashing, cleaning floors, etc.). Of course, the only part you actually see is the driver walking from his car to your door while you stand in the threshold with your stopwatch and your expression of severe constipation. It seems that someone watched _Reservoir Dogs_ and found a personal hero in Mr. Pink. ---
**Author:** ![Giraffe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giraffe/32/129_2.png) [@Giraffe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giraffe)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2007, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people-who-dont-tip/407327/159 "2007-06-11T17:42:47Z")
Gosh, but you’re an asshole, **Dudley**. Why all the hostility toward people working shitty service jobs? They didn’t personally invent the concept of tipping, they’re just trying to make ends meet working a difficult job, made significantly more difficult by the fact that they have to deal with douchebags like yourself. Feel free to opt out of doing business with establishments that are set up around tipping, but don’t stiff people. You may technically have the right to, but only because you’re taking advantage of social customs without regard to the consequences to others. ---
**Author:** ![Wee\_Bairn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/90db22/32.png) [@Wee\_Bairn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wee_Bairn)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2007, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people-who-dont-tip/407327/160 "2007-06-11T17:56:18Z")
Service employees- If you have the smarts to be doing something better, fuck you, go out and get a better job. If you don’t have the smarts to do something better, fuck you for not being educated. Stiffing the driver will surely teach a lesson to whoever set up the system. :rolleyes: [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people-who-dont-tip/407327.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people-who-dont-tip/407327.md?page=9)