# "People who live by the Koran are backwards" **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 19, 2004, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people-who-live-by-the-koran-are-backwards/230074 "2004-02-19T21:54:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Angua](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8baadc/32.png) [@Angua](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Angua)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2004, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people-who-live-by-the-koran-are-backwards/230074/61 "2004-02-26T01:08:59Z")
> [@Jojo](#): > > What a strange response. I admit you caught me off guard with that one. > > Do you mean you can’t tell me because it’s a secret or do you mean you can’t tell me because you don’t know or do you mean you can’t tell me because it was ordained by God and you don’t know why God chooses to do things? Sheesh. Why do you have to look for a hidden meaning in everything?? I can’t tell you because _I genuinely don’t know_. No hidden meaning about it. > [@Jojo](#): > > Islam wants me to pay you a tax for no other reason than you are a muslim and I’m not. Well, sorry, if I’m going to pay you a tax and thereby “feel myself humiliated” you’re gonna have to come up with a better reason than “my holy book says you have to”. Yeah, but, if you take a look at things, Muslims have to pay a Zakhat - a form of taxation. And I believe that in the days when Islamic empires (such as the Ummayids, and the Fatimids) were among the most powerful forces in the world, _everyone_ contributed taxes, not just non-Muslims. Oh, and if non-Muslims were so inferior, why were Christians and Jews appointed to high offices in the Fatimid Empire? > [@Jojo](#): > > Religious discrimination leads to war and terrorism - look at Northern Ireland. There is _absolutely_ no need to lecture me on that, or even to point out Northern Ireland to me. I _know_. And maybe, if you think about things, you’ll realise that for a long time Muslims _have_ been discriminated against. I am in no way whatsoever advocating terrorism or war - I think it is absolutely detestable. However, using your example of Northern Ireland, when a group or community feels that its culture and its way of life is being threatened and opressed, which is the root of the Northern Ireland conflict, right back from the 19th century, then those who are being threatened and opressed _do_ hit back. I don’t advocate the violence at all, in either the Islamic or the NI situation, but, ask yourself, in this day and age, who exactly is being discriminated against? > [@Jojo](#): > > Apart from when he was slaughtering neighbouring jewish tribes and local arab pagans but that’s another thread. Yeah, when they were threatened. I recall the Battle of the Ditch, where the “pagan Arab tribes” , including members of his own clan, decided to destroy Medina, and the Muslim community there in one fell swoop. Sorry the Muslims there acted in self defence. What should they have done? Let themselves be destroyed? Would you let yourself and your way of life that you’d struggled long and hard to build up be destroyed? > [@Jojo](#): > > As regards the hadith, It was, I believe, the last thing Mohammed ever said. He uttered these words on his deathbed: > > Let not two religions exist in Arabia Yeah, and he was well aware at that time of the controversy building up regarding his successor. Those who believed that his son-in-law and nephew, Hazrat Ali, would be the next Caliph and Imam, and those who beleived that the Caliphate was the right of (IIRC, its late, and I don’t have my references to hand) Abu Bakr. Needless to say, this was going to cause a schism there and then, before Islam had even got off the ground. How do you know that that Hadith was not in reference to that? Sounds like a more plausible arguement than “lets kick the Jews and Christians that we’ve been living side by side with, out of their homes”. > [@Jojo](#): > > Likewise, non-muslims are not allowed to touch a muslim’s prayer mat for fear of tainting it. Again, I don’t really care, but what makes you think that y’all are so all high-faluting important? Another _unwashed Muslim_ is not even allowed to touch a prayermat. Its the sanctity of it. On that prayermat, one is in direct communion with Allah, its sacred, its holy, that’s why no one except one who has performed the ritual abultions can touch it. Note: The branch of Islam I belong to don’t use prayermats; this is what I’ve learnt from my more orthodox Muslim friends. > [@Jojo](#): > > Uh yeah, sure thing Mo. Um, where do you get off insulting other people’s beliefs? Yeah, OK, so the hadith wasn’t numerically accurate, but if you think about it, it does describe the three trimesters of gestation pretty well. > [@Jojo](#): > > The Prophet said, “Allah does not accept prayer of anyone of you if he does Hadath (passes wind) till he performs the ablution (anew).” Well, yes. And you’re not supposed to go to the loo either between abultions and prayer. Same sort of thing. > [@Jojo](#): > > No but they’re not basing their racism on an actual book which we can all point to. Terrorists \*are]/i] basing their beliefs on an actual book. Really? What about those “Christians” who will point to the bible to show their superiority? > [@Jojo](#): > > Likewise comparing islam with christianity is apples and oranges. They are different ideologies - it’s like comparing communism with democracy. They are both ideologies but the comparison ends there. Right. Of course. Do you want me to start pointing out all the _obvious_ links between the Christian and Islamic ideologies? Also, I feel that I need to point out that in the Koran itself, it is made clear that the Koran is allegorical, and hence taking too much of it literally is a recipe for disaster. ---
**Author:** ![Jojo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ecd19e/32.png) [@Jojo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jojo)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2004, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people-who-live-by-the-koran-are-backwards/230074/62 "2004-02-26T02:57:54Z")
Angua said: > [@](#): > > Sheesh. Why do you have to look for a hidden meaning in everything?? Because I’m paranoid, legally trained and an anarchist so I don’t ever trust anybody about anything. > [@](#): > > I can’t tell you because I genuinely don’t know. No hidden meaning about it. Well, don’t you think you ought to find out? Given that it’s part of your religion an’ all? > [@](#): > > Yeah, but, if you take a look at things, Muslims have to pay a Zakhat - a form of taxation. And this sounds like a rational theory of taxation to you? Connecting the tax system to what religion you are? > [@](#): > > Yeah, when they were threatened. I recall the Battle of the Ditch, where the “pagan Arab tribes” , including members of his own clan, decided to destroy Medina, and the Muslim community there in one fell swoop. Sorry the Muslims there acted in self defence. What should they have done? Let themselves be destroyed? Would you let yourself and your way of life that you’d struggled long and hard to build up be destroyed? Well, like I said, Mohammed is another thread. > [@](#): > > Yeah, and he was well aware at that time of the controversy building up regarding his successor. Those who believed that his son-in-law and nephew, Hazrat Ali, would be the next Caliph and Imam, and those who beleived that the Caliphate was the right of (IIRC, its late, and I don’t have my references to hand) Abu Bakr. Needless to say, this was going to cause a schism there and then, before Islam had even got off the ground. How do you know that that Hadith was not in reference to that? Sounds like a more plausible arguement than “lets kick the Jews and Christians that we’ve been living side by side with, out of their homes”. ok, that’s a reasonable hypothesis. > [@](#): > > Another unwashed Muslim is not even allowed to touch a prayermat. Its the sanctity of it. On that prayermat, one is in direct communion with Allah, its sacred, its holy, that’s why no one except one who has performed the ritual abultions can touch it. ok so that means though that **I** can _never_ be clean enough to touch a prayer mat since I’m not a muslim. Even if I scrub myself thoroughly, I can never be clean enough because I’m not a muslim. This all ties into a psyche of non-muslim=unclean And then we see this psyche get followed through with the idea of non-muslims being banned from Mecca. It all comes down to an urge to divide people according to their religious belief. Believers are somehow “clean” whilst unbelievers are somehow “unclean”. All religions do it to some extent, not just islam. Islam only gives me cause for concern sometimes because it seems to make a big deal out of people being “of the faith” or not. And then it seems to rank unbelievers in order of how well they should be treated ie the “people of the book” first followed by the pagans etc. > [@](#): > > Um, where do you get off insulting other people’s beliefs? _snort_ Get used to it. > [@](#): > > Yeah, OK, so the hadith wasn’t numerically accurate, but if you think about it, it does describe the three trimesters of gestation pretty well. _course_ it does, you keep on believing that. > [@](#): > > Also, I feel that I need to point out that in the Koran itself, it is made clear that the Koran is allegorical. Is it? Where? ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2004, 5:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people-who-live-by-the-koran-are-backwards/230074/63 "2004-02-26T05:19:15Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Of course, another “old SDMB trick” is erecting numerous strawmen to avoid addressing what was _actually_ said. In fact, given the large number of clearly false beliefs regarding what is “true” about Islam. I see no reason to allow a statement that may be in error to be entered as “generally accepted.” Accepted by whom? Jerry Falwell? Ann Coulter? AOB? > Since there are many Mulsim countries in which women serve in government (even at the executive level) and there are a number of Muslim women in business and the sciences, generic claims regarding “Islamic sexism” appears to be the extraordinary claim. There clearly are sexist Islamic societies. A nuanced explanation of where and how sexism is actually operating might be worth discussing. Broad brush claims that are based on “generally accepted” (and unproven) notions held by people ignorant of those societies are not. If you think that because Islamic societies sometimes bring forth female leaders they’re not sexist, I have a bridge in Brooklyn I’d like to sell you … I dunno what you’re smoking, but here, [smoke this,](http://www.secularhumanism.org/library/fi/kamguian_23_4.htm) [and this,](http://www.pbs.org/wnet/wideangle/shows/junoon/debate_8.html) [and this,](http://www.islamfortoday.com/ummzaid06.htm) [and this,](http://www.secularislam.org/women/ground.htm) [and finally a summary of one of many books on the subject](http://www.history-asia.com/Price_of_Honor_Muslim_Women_Lift_the_Veil_of_Silence_on_the_Islamic_World_0452274303.html). Look, I understand that you don’t want to lose this argument, but your position that there’s no widespread acceptance of the notion that Islamic societies are sexist is just incredibly wrong-headed. Many Muslim thinkers will agree that their societies are sexist and that they have to deal with this problem. I don’t know what you think you’re proving by stubbornly maintaining that the sky is purple with pink polka-dots when everyone else can see it’s blue, but frankly, I am here to tell you that the Emperor has no clothes and he doesn’t have a leg to stand on either. > [@](#): > > I asked that if you are going to claim that sexism is endemic to Islam and imply that it has interfered with the development of the Islamic world, you demonstrate that your claim has some basis in reality. I never made any such claim, I just said I think there’s something there that should be investigated. Do you understand that distinction? I don’t have what I would consider absolute proof of this, but I don’t think I have to have proof unless I’m drawing a conclusion. > [@](#): > > Otherwise you are begging the question. We have already had threads that addressed relative positions of women in several (not all) Islamic societies and it was demonstrated that Muslim women throughout the world have far more rights than one would gather by looking at Taliban-controlled Afghanistan or Wahabbist Saudi Arabia. Several of the sources I cited flatly contradict you here – they said that throughout Islam, women are oppressed. Now, they may not all be as bad as Afghanistan under the Taliban or Saudi Arabia under the Wahabbis, but that’s not saying one hell of a lot, is it? > [@](#): > > There may be some aspect of Islam that has hindered many countries from developing in the 21st century. However, so far I have seen only broad claims that “Islam may” (or “Islam has”) done so (apparently true for all Muslim countries) couched in broad generalizations with a serious lack of historical perspective. This is what’s known as a discussion as opposed to an argument. Instead of putting forth combative claims which must be disputed, people put forth ideas or lines of inquiries which are discussed. It’s an amazing process for collectively figuring things out – you should try it sometime. ---
**Author:** ![RexDart](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b77776/32.png) [@RexDart](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RexDart)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2004, 6:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people-who-live-by-the-koran-are-backwards/230074/64 "2004-02-26T06:18:29Z")
Well, there’s alot of truth in what the person quoted in the OP says. The Koran presents a completely backward, brutal, vicious, and primitive notion of justice. When followed as a guide for a justice system, we get people’s fingernails torn off, and so forth. Not the sort of world I want to live in, to be sure. I’d say the Islamic regions of the earth are in dire need of an Enlightenment period, for the principles of reason and humanism to wash away the superstition. I must agree with the quoted fellow on that count. The typical comparisons to Christianity, or vague generalizations about “all religions do X…” don’t refute the point. The Koran is a backwards document, and embraced largely by a backwards people. I mean, if you were to put Islamism on a scale, surely it would be far to the “reactionary” side, infested with cultural conservatism and anti-technology sentiments. That there are some Islamic followers who have been sufficiently Westernized that they’re willing to ignore the brutality of Islamic “justice” and embrace civilized, modern notions of justice and society shouldn’t stop us from rightly criticizing the Koran where it’s reactionary nature exists. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2004, 6:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people-who-live-by-the-koran-are-backwards/230074/65 "2004-02-26T06:48:39Z")
> [@](#): > > but your position that there’s no widespread acceptance of the notion that Islamic societies are sexist is just incredibly wrong-heade Still with the strawman presentations? I did not say that the perception of Islam being sexist was not widely accepted. I note that it is _generally_ accepted by people who stand outside Islam and make claims (and “accept” their preconceived notions) based on ignorance. I also never said that there was no sexism in Islam. However, you are simply throwing out a generalization that you initially failed to support (and have now provided “support” that includes several notoriously anti-Muslim (and often inaccurate) sources. If you have a thesis, present it with legitimate support for your position. Attacking me for failing to accede to “generally accepted” ignorant posturing by non-Muslim opponents of Islam is not actually making your case. [Secularhumanism.org](http://Secularhumanism.org)? Daniel Pipes? [Secularislam.org](http://Secularislam.org)? C’mon! Do you use tracts from Jack Chick or Ian Paisley as sources for information on Catholicism? The [islamfortoday.org](http://islamfortoday.org) piece by Saraji Umm Zaid comes closer to what you are looking for, but he only adresses the issues of Islam in the MENA region (which is, pretty much, my point on broad brush claims against _all_ of Islam). Similarly, the book review to which you linked points out that the author asserts that > [@](#): > > Most importantly, Goodwin addresses how the Koran and Islam can be viewed as a feminist in the sense that they actually set up rights of women, equality of the sexes and implores men and women to treat each other well. Goodwin does juxtapose the Korans views of women with how the radical-political culture of certain areas in the Middle East and Central Asia to show that some religious-extremists are using the banner of Islam to enforce their views which are not necessarily true to the religion. (And Ms. Goodwin’s book also seems to be focused on the MENA region, with no actual discussion of such Islamic societies as Indonesia.) > [@](#): > > Instead of putting forth combative claims which must be disputed, people put forth ideas or lines of inquiries which are discussed. I do not oppose you putting forth lines of inquiries to be discussed. I actually have suggested you _do_ that on more than one occasion. I simply believe you should come to the “discussion” with genuine information rather than overbroad generalizations (finally) backed up with biased references. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2004, 8:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people-who-live-by-the-koran-are-backwards/230074/66 "2004-02-26T08:16:59Z")
> [@Evil Captor](#): > > On the face of it, you have to wonder about Islam and backwardness. Is there any country in the world in which Islam is the dominant religion, which is a first-class economic or technical power? In fact, is there any Islamic nation which has a strong, healthy economy not based on oil extraction? Malaysia was doing pretty well, last time I checked. Singapore is half Muslim and its citizens enjoy a per capita income comparable to that of any Western state. Besides, why does it matter if their economies are based on oil extraction? You wouldn’t call the Scots backward, but their economy is becoming more and more dependent on oil. The “Islamic states are sexist” angle doesn’t work either. The United States, that bastion of equality, has yet to appoint a woman Head of State. Yadar Sadykovna Nariddinova, Ibodat Rakhimova, Benazir Bhutto, Khaleda Zia, Hasina Wajed, Megawati Sukarnoputri… while _you_ may be perfectly comfortable voting for a female Presidential candidate, Americans at large clearly are not. How, then, are they any less “backward”? ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2004, 8:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people-who-live-by-the-koran-are-backwards/230074/67 "2004-02-26T08:55:05Z")
**Jojo:** \*Bear in mind also that I’m not addressing the OP about people who follow the quran are backward, I’m addressing the question that was asked earlier about people being able to find things in the quran that justify violence and terrorism. Far as I can see there’s tons of stuff in the quran and hadith that can justify jihad.\* And there’s tons of stuff in the Bible that can be, and has been, used to justify violence and terrorism too. My point is that Islam _per se_ is not somehow special in that regard. **RD:** _The Koran presents a completely backward, brutal, vicious, and primitive notion of justice. When followed as a guide for a justice system, we get people’s fingernails torn off, and so forth._ Are you happier about, e.g., adulterers and blasphemers being stoned to death, as prescribed in the Bible? There **is** an interesting debate topic buried somewhere in this stew of ignorance and religious prejudice, I think, and it’s this: “What are the causes of repressive and brutal Islamic-theocratic regimes in the modern world?” IMO there are a whole host of complex factors involved in the answer, including (but by no means limited to) oil, political/economic fallout in the ME during and after the two world wars, imperialism (both medieval/early modern Islamic imperial expansion and that of the early modern/modern Europeans), the postcolonial Muslim diaspora, the withering away of the caliphate, the growth of Islamic “reform” movements in the nineteenth century, and the Cold War. Trying to sidestep all these historical and cultural contingencies by insisting that the real problem is simply that the Qur’an is somehow **intrinsically, essentially** more “backward” than the Bible just doesn’t cut it. - I mean, if you were to put Islamism on a scale, surely it would be far to the “reactionary” side, infested with cultural conservatism and anti-technology sentiments. \* If you really mean “Islamism” in its technical sense—i.e., the designation used for modern militant-fundamentalist, theocratic-state-supporting variants of Islam—then I would quite agree with you. Contemporary militant-fundamentalist variants of Judaism and Christianity would be far to the “reactionary” side of that same scale too. But if you are trying to tag **the whole religion of Islam** with that “reactionary” label, then your claim collapses. Islam, like any other major world religion, embraces a huge spectrum of attitudes towards technology, modernity, and every other topic. It includes millions of pacifist Chishti Sufis as well as militant terrorist al-Qaeda Wahhabists. It includes famous ulama and mullahs who preach against terrorism and in favor of equality for women as well as those who preach the opposite. It simply cannot be classified with a single set of attitudes, beliefs, or actions, except the creed that “there is no God but God, and Muhammad is the Prophet of God”. And even that, of course, has hugely different implications depending on whose interpretation you follow! _That there are some Islamic followers who have been sufficiently Westernized that they’re willing to ignore the brutality of Islamic “justice” and embrace civilized, modern notions of justice and society shouldn’t stop us from rightly criticizing the Koran where it’s reactionary nature exists._ Mmm-hmm. And the fact that there are some Scotsmen who have been beguiled by Sassenach effeminacy into putting sugar on their porridge shouldn’t stop us from rightly upholding the essential sugarless nature of the **true** Scotsman’s porridge. ---
**Author:** ![Angua](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8baadc/32.png) [@Angua](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Angua)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2004, 11:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people-who-live-by-the-koran-are-backwards/230074/68 "2004-02-26T11:17:11Z")
> [@Jojo](#): > > Well, don’t you think you ought to find out? Given that it’s part of your religion an’ all? No, because in my community, it was abolished ages ago - time of the Fatimid Empire in fact. Its obsolete. > [@Jojo](#): > > ok so that means though that **I** can _never_ be clean enough to touch a prayer mat since I’m not a muslim. Even if I scrub myself thoroughly, I can never be clean enough because I’m not a muslim. Er, no. If you perform the neccesary abultions, then you can. But that of course, would require you to be sensible and respectful of someone else’s beliefs and culture. Is it? Where? [/QUOTE] Here we go: > [@](#): > > He it is who has revealed the Book to you; some of its verses are decisive, they are the basis of the book, and others are allegorical; then as for those in whose hearts there is perversity, they follow the part of it which is allegorical, seeking to mislead, and seeking to give it (their own) interpretation, but none knows its interpretation except Allah, and those who are firmly rooted in knowldege. > > _Sura al-Imran, Ayat 7_ So, there we go - some bits of the Koran are meant to be interpreted literally. Others are not. And those who want to cause trouble will take the allegorical parts, and interpret them any which way they want, and use it to stir up trouble. And at this point, I’m going to bow out of this thread. As interesting as this dicussion is, I have more important things to do. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2004, 12:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people-who-live-by-the-koran-are-backwards/230074/69 "2004-02-26T12:39:47Z")
> [@dutchboy208](#): > > Malaysia was doing pretty well, last time I checked. Singapore is half Muslim and its citizens enjoy a per capita income comparable to that of any Western state. Besides, why does it matter if their economies are based on oil extraction? You wouldn’t call the Scots backward, but their economy is becoming more and more dependent on oil. > > The “Islamic states are sexist” angle doesn’t work either. The United States, that bastion of equality, has yet to appoint a woman Head of State. Yadar Sadykovna Nariddinova, Ibodat Rakhimova, Benazir Bhutto, Khaleda Zia, Hasina Wajed, Megawati Sukarnoputri… while _you_ may be perfectly comfortable voting for a female Presidential candidate, Americans at large clearly are not. How, then, are they any less “backward”? Thank you! I really was asking the question honestly – it had occurred to me that there might be some Islamic states that were well advanced economically. How are Malaysia and Singapore doing in terms of social advancement? I’m not talking about “do they have the occasional woman in charge of things”? kind of thing. I’m talking, are honor killings an accepted custom, are women stoned, lashed, that kind of thing for sex crimes, are women forced to wear the chador or whatever the hell. Which also addresses the woman head of state thing. The rules are always different for the people at the top of any given society, I’m more interested in what things are like for regular folks. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2004, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people-who-live-by-the-koran-are-backwards/230074/70 "2004-02-26T13:34:10Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Still with the strawman presentations? I did not say that the perception of Islam being sexist was not widely accepted. I note that it is _generally_ accepted by people who stand outside Islam and make claims (and “accept” their preconceived notions) based on ignorance. I also never said that there was no sexism in Islam. However, you are simply throwing out a generalization that you initially failed to support (and have now provided “support” that includes several notoriously anti-Muslim (and often inaccurate) sources. If you have a thesis, present it with legitimate support for your position. So now I have to find a “true Scotsman” kind of source, eh? One that will meet with your approval? Sorry, I’ve made my case, you’re just casting aspersion on the sources because that’s all you’ve got left in the way of argument. And by the way, disagreeing with things Islamic countries do isn’t necessarily anti-Muslim, in fact, a lot of Muslims do that. > [@](#): > > I do not oppose you putting forth lines of inquiries to be discussed. I actually have suggested you _do_ that on more than one occasion. I simply believe you should come to the “discussion” with genuine information rather than overbroad generalizations (finally) backed up with biased references. It’s hard to advance a line of inquiry when you won’t concede basic points like the prevelance of sexism in Islamic socieities. Honor killings, rape as a source of shame for the rapee rather than just the rapist, the chador, restrictions of Muslim women to the home, second class citizenship – oh, it all looks pretty nasty. Now, I don’t think this is ONLY because of Islam. I strongly suspect it’s a confluence of Islamic beliefs and the patriarchal societies that hold those beliefs. But I also suspect there are many links between old-line patriarchal societies and Islam. They have grown together you might say, and not in a good way. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2004, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people-who-live-by-the-koran-are-backwards/230074/71 "2004-02-26T13:42:20Z")
Oh, and [here is an editorial by a Muslim scholar](http://www.newint.org/issue345/contents.htm) in which casually described sexism as entrenched in Islam. But oh, he must not be a True Scotsman, eh? Now, I hate racism. I live in the Deep South. I know there are a lot of folks here who hate racism just as much as I do. But I also know it’s deeply entrenched here. And there’s no point in denying it, in fact, that just makes it worse because it conceals the extent of the problem. I suspect the same is true of sexism and Islam. I suspect that why there are many Muslims who decry sexism. Oh, but I’m a bigot and can’t think thoughts like that, can I? ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2004, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people-who-live-by-the-koran-are-backwards/230074/72 "2004-02-26T14:00:59Z")
> [@](#): > > Honor killings, rape as a source of shame for the rapee rather than just the rapist, the chador, restrictions of Muslim women to the home, second class citizenship – oh, it all looks pretty nasty. Not one of these things a occurs in a majority of nations or regions that are primarily dominated by Islam. Every one of them is culturally related to specific regions of the world, regardless of the religion having the most adherents in the region. That is my objection to your broad claim. You are looking at specific problems in a limited number of places and blaming the whole mess on “Islam”. There are a number of Christian regions that are quite happy to blame rape on the victim and to employ honor killings for various reasons. How is this “Muslim”? The chador is enforced (or even _used_) in a rather tiny minority of Muslim countries. How is this a problem of “Islam”? Women are restricted to the home in very few countries, so, again, how is this a “Muslim” issue? And the “second class citizen” issue (which, while excesively vague in itself, can be found abundantly in many cultures outside Islam) is also limited to relatively few Muslim nations. You have lumped issues that occur across multiple cultures embracing multiple religions and issues that occur in very localized regions that are coincidentally Muslim and are seeking to portray all the issues as the result of Islam. Until you provide direct evidence that your issues are inherent in Islam rather than tied to regional cultures regardless of religion, you have failed to make a case. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2004, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people-who-live-by-the-koran-are-backwards/230074/73 "2004-02-26T14:04:40Z")
> [@](#): > > Oh, but I’m a bigot and can’t think thoughts like that, can I? Oh, quit whining. I have not called you a bigot at any time. I have simply pointed out that you are relying on stereotypes to inadequately make your case. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2004, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people-who-live-by-the-koran-are-backwards/230074/74 "2004-02-26T14:22:15Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Not one of these things a occurs in a majority of nations or regions that are primarily dominated by Islam. Every one of them is culturally related to specific regions of the world, regardless of the religion having the most adherents in the region. That is my objection to your broad claim. You are looking at specific problems in a limited number of places and blaming the whole mess on “Islam”. There are a number of Christian regions that are quite happy to blame rape on the victim and to employ honor killings for various reasons. How is this “Muslim”? The chador is enforced (or even _used_) in a rather tiny minority of Muslim countries. How is this a problem of “Islam”? Women are restricted to the home in very few countries, so, again, how is this a “Muslim” issue? And the “second class citizen” issue (which, while excesively vague in itself, can be found abundantly in many cultures outside Islam) is also limited to relatively few Muslim nations. Name some of the very many Muslim nations that don’t have any of these problems. Feel free. Here’s another instance of a Muslim scholar bad-mouthing Islam wrt sexism again. It’s funny that so many of them disagree with you on this point: > [@](#): > > In Pakistan and many other Muslim countries, for example, it is commonly believed, and not just by uneducated people, that a husband is a wife’s ‘majazi khuda’—that he is her ‘god’ in a sense. Reported sayings of the Prophet like “If a man calls his wife to his bed and she refuses and he spends the night angry at her, the angels curse her until the morning” and “If I were to order anyone to prostrate himself before another, I would order a woman to prostrate herself before her husband” are famous, more famous than many of the other traditions contained in the canonical Hadith collections. This tells you something about the reality of patriarchal Muslim societies and the way religiosity can easily play into the hands of power. > > This isn’t something that will change easily, because the truth is, too many Muslims are invested in a belief in the superiority and the authority of men over women. Generally, this belief is part of the socialization process of Muslim children. Muslim men all over the world are the ones who receive religious education; religious seminaries (jami’ahs and madrasas) are generally open only to men. > > And the religious seminaries, incidentally, don’t attract the most educated men. The most educated males enter high-status professions such as the civil service, medicine, engineering, etc. > > So when the maulvi or the mullah tells the man he is supposed to be dominant over women, and he tells the woman she must obey and please her husband in all matters, we don’t have to be overly imaginative to know what the results will be. Here’s the source for the quote: [http://www.muslimwakeup.com/mainarchive/2003/06/000109print.php](http://www.muslimwakeup.com/mainarchive/2003/06/000109print.php) What’s interesting about this quote is that it places sexism at the very heart of widespread Islamic teaching and practice. I had no idea things were this bad. > [@](#): > > You have lumped issues that occur across multiple cultures embracing multiple religions and issues that occur in very localized regions that are coincidentally Muslim and are seeking to portray all the issues as the result of Islam. Until you provide direct evidence that your issues are inherent in Islam rather than tied to regional cultures regardless of religion, you have failed to make a case. So where are all those copies of the Koran that DON’T contain that quote about Mohammed saying women should be forced to “prostrate themselves before their husbands”? ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2004, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people-who-live-by-the-koran-are-backwards/230074/75 "2004-02-26T14:39:59Z")
> [@](#): > > What’s interesting about this quote is that it places sexism at the very heart of widespread Islamic teaching and practice. and > [@](#): > > So where are all those copies of the Koran that DON’T contain that quote about Mohammed saying women should be forced to “prostrate themselves before their husbands”? My guess would be that **no** copy of the Qur’an says for wives to prostrate themselves before their husbands (but I am open to correction on the point). If you would notice what the author of your latest article actually said was > [@](#): > > In Pakistan and many other Muslim countries, for example, it is commonly believed, and not just by uneducated people, that a husband is a wife’s ‘majazi khuda’—that he is her ‘god’ in a sense. Reported sayings of the Prophet like “If a man calls his wife to his bed and she refuses and he spends the night angry at her, the angels curse her until the morning” and “If I were to order anyone to prostrate himself before another, I would order a woman to prostrate herself before her husband” are famous, more famous than many of the other traditions contained in the canonical Hadith collections. Notice the references specifically to Pakistan with a vague “many other” (with no claim that it is true in all Muslim countries)? Notice, specifically, that the saying is “reported” of the Prophet that he made the statement that is “more famous than many of the other traditions contained in the canonical Hadith collections.” In other words, this is a Pakistani legend that does not seem to appear in either the Qur’an or even in the Hadith. (In contrast to Paul’s “wives, be subject to your husbands” command that appears _twice_ in Christian scripture.) Regional culture, again. (And, since the discussion began with a certain reference to Islam holding societies back, if you continue to find individual complaints of generalized sexism in Islamic society rather than actual demonstrations of sexism that encompasses the entire Muslim world, I will simply overwhelm you with complaints by dozens of Christians about the inherent sexism of Christianity that will set the two religions on an equal footing regarding sexism, eliminating the issue from one of “holding back” a society.) I’m glad that you are finally doing some homework on the issue, rather than your grand and unsubstantiated claims of “general acceptance” with which you began this discussion. Now, if you can tailor your research to demonstrate the pan-Islamic nature of your claims, you will be well on the way to a genuine discussion. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2004, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people-who-live-by-the-koran-are-backwards/230074/76 "2004-02-26T14:46:27Z")
> [@](#): > > Name some of the very many Muslim nations that don’t have any of these problems. Feel free. Nope. You made the claim that it was true of “Islam.” Do your own homework: find out how many nations have Muslim majorities or substantial Muslim minorities and find out in how many these practices are generally practiced or approved. We’ve already had the threads discussing these points. But you made the grand claim–it is your burden to prove it. If some problems occur in some countries and some different problems occur in some differentr countries, then I doubt that I will be able to accept the claims that they are “Muslim,” (unless you want me to look into Sicily, Croatia, and Bosnia and “demonstrate” that honor killings and humiliation rapes are a Christian characteristic). ---
**Author:** ![Jojo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ecd19e/32.png) [@Jojo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jojo)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2004, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people-who-live-by-the-koran-are-backwards/230074/77 "2004-02-26T22:26:42Z")
Angua said: > [@](#): > > No, because in my community, it was abolished ages ago - time of the Fatimid Empire in fact. Its obsolete. ok if it doesn’t bother you that it’s still valid in the rest of the islamic world then that’s up to you. > [@](#): > > Er, no. If you perform the neccesary abultions, then you can. That’s not what I’ve been told but if you say so. > [@](#): > > But that of course, would require you to be sensible and respectful of someone else’s beliefs and culture. Who mentioned culture? We’re talking about an ideology calling itself islam. Far as I’m concerned all ideologies are legitimate targets for questioning. If I was a communist you would consider it fair game to criticise my communism, islam is no different just because it calls itself a “religion”. But anyway, if it will make you feel better, from now on I will refer to Jesus as Jessie, Abraham as Abe and Moses as Chuck. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2004, 3:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people-who-live-by-the-koran-are-backwards/230074/78 "2004-02-27T03:46:30Z")
> [@Jojo](#): > > Who mentioned culture? We’re talking about an ideology calling itself islam. Far as I’m concerned all ideologies are legitimate targets for questioning. If I was a communist you would consider it fair game to criticise my communism, islam is no different just because it calls itself a “religion”. > > But anyway, if it will make you feel better, from now on I will refer to Jesus as Jessie, Abraham as Abe and Moses as Chuck. You know very well that the notion of culture and religion are heavily entwined. Besides, you’re confusing the two. Most of the “Islamic” practices you find backward or uncivilized are specifically Arab or Levantine or southeast Asian, not Muslim. They merely happen to be practiced by certain Muslim groups. Would you tar every Christian state (I mean this in the sense of nation-state) backward because a few of them require Creation theory to be taught in schools? ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2004, 6:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people-who-live-by-the-koran-are-backwards/230074/79 "2004-02-27T06:55:56Z")
> [@Jojo](#): > > ok if it doesn’t bother you that it’s still valid in the rest of the islamic world then that’s up to you. I don’t think it is still valid. I don’t know of any Muslim country, (maybe the Saudis, but I don’t think so…any Saudi dopers know?), that mandates jizya. A few years back there were problems in Cairo, where Christian shopkeepers were shook down and told they had to pay jizya, but that was gang activity…a good old fashoned shakedown, and not the government. Besides, even though non-Muslims had to pay jizya, they didn’t have to pay zakat and they didn’t have to serve in the army or militia. (I’m pretty sure that was the logic behind jizya…Non-Muslims had to pay it in lieu of military service.) So, while it was discriminatory, it wasn’t merely a vehicle for discrimination…it had practical application. You’d have more luck criticizing some of the other Dhimmi laws, which did things like require non-Muslims to wear distinctive clothing, or ride horses. It’s a moot point, though, because the laws no longer exist. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2004, 12:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people-who-live-by-the-koran-are-backwards/230074/80 "2004-02-27T12:42:35Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Nope. You made the claim that it was true of “Islam.” Do your own homework: find out how many nations have Muslim majorities or substantial Muslim minorities and find out in how many these practices are generally practiced or approved. We’ve already had the threads discussing these points. But you made the grand claim–it is your burden to prove it. No, sorry. You’re the one making the extraordinary claim: that Muslim countries aren’t sexist. You’re like one of those creationists who refuses to accept evolution and says that unless scientists can demonstrate the validity of evolutionary theory completely to their satisfaction, then creationism is just as valid as evolution and should be taught in schools. Most people don’t buy that, and most people aren’t gonna buy the notion that Islam isn’t sexist to the bone. The burden is VERY much on you to prove otherwise. Now, I’ll gladly look at those other threads on the topic, any keywords I should look for? > [@](#): > > If some problems occur in some countries and some different problems occur in some differentr countries, then I doubt that I will be able to accept the claims that they are “Muslim,” (unless you want me to look into Sicily, Croatia, and Bosnia and “demonstrate” that honor killings and humiliation rapes are a Christian characteristic). Just because some Christian countries have done bad things in the past, it doesn’t mean Muslims aren’t sexist. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people-who-live-by-the-koran-are-backwards/230074.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people-who-live-by-the-koran-are-backwards/230074.md?page=5)