That’s the problem with the question. Assuming that someone professes to be Christian (or Jewish, Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist or whatever), how can we know what they believe in their hearts?
Well, you could read the analysis of one Jew of about 2,000 years ago:
He’s suggesting that those who are most public in their religiousness are those least likely to be truly religious.
I don’t think he’s suggesting it.
I’m not sure about Hitler himself, but it’s been fairly well established that several of the top Nazis were basically neo-pagans, whose religion was based on Teutonic and Norse mythology, with alot of racism mixed in.
As for Obama, he used to go to Rev. Wright’s church, but stopped going when Wright’s bigotry made him a political liability. From what I’ve heard, he hasn’t gone to church regularly since he was elected president, but he recently said that he prays regularly. I think Obama downplays his religion to a certain extent, mainly out of a fear that liberals will think he’s a religous nut if he talks about it too much. (Can’t risk pissing off the faction that gets their underwear in a knot when people start talking about the “magical sky fairies,” can we? :rolleyes:)
However, he’s apparently downplayed it too much, since a substantial fraction of the population think he’s a Muslim. In all fairness, tho, when your father and stepfather were both Muslims, and your middle name is “Hussein,” you can’t be surprised if people jump to conclusions.
From what I’ve heard, I’d say Abraham Lincoln and Richard Nixon were probably closet atheists. Jefferson is an interesting case: somewhat of a mixture between secular humanism and Christianity.
Eisenhower and McCain I couldn’t say, but McCain (and JFK, and Bill Clinton) certainly seem to have trouble remembering that bit about not committing adultry.
There’s been a Staff Report on Was Hitler a Christian?
That seems unlikely (about Lincoln), as often as he publicly referred to God or Providence, without apparently feeling the need to conform to conventional religiousity.
Here’s one look at Lincoln’s religious beliefs, which asserts that “it is pretty clear that he was not an atheist.” (See also the Wikipedia article on Abraham Lincoln and religion.)
I have often thought that a closet atheist could successfully run for high office by simply citing that verse in response to questions about religion: “I believe strongly in the wisdom of Jesus as given to us in Matthew 6, verses 5 and 6. Religion is a private matter.”
I stand corrected about Lincoln. I guess that he, like Jefferson, is one of those people that’s just hard to classify.
Where did you get the evidence for Richard Nixon from
Well there’s a difference between constantly praying in the middle of the street and just answering “I’m a Christian” or “I trust in Jesus Christ”.
Interesting. The article basically concludes that there is evidence both ways and perhaps he was some variation of deist.
I was “coming down on the side” of him being atheist, but I could just as easily flip a coin. Point is, he is a potential candidate for people who have one belief in public yadda yadda.
(Also, that article claims that hitler “knew” he could defeat the british army. I don’t want to hijack, but I don’t think that’s accurate)
He was totally an atheist.
What’s your evidence in regards to Lincoln, Diogenes the Cynic?
Are you saying that Canadians are better Christians than US Americans because we actually practice that? 
I don’t know about better Christians, but they’re better Americans for it.
None of those letters from Abbott and Herndon show that Lincoln is an atheist. Indeed, they are really about the fact that he wasn’t a Christian. Here’s what Abbott says:
> In the first place, Mr. Lincoln’s mind was a purely logical mind; secondly, Mr.
> Lincoln’s was a purely practical mind.
And that proves what?
> His mind, when a boy in Kentucky, showed a certain gloom, an unsocial nature,
> a peculiar abstractness, a bold and daring skepticism.
And that proves what?
> This book was an attack upon the whole grounds of Christianity, and especially
> was it an attack upon the idea that Jesus was the Christ, the true and only-
> begotten son of God, as the Christian world contends.
This book [which Abbott claims once existed] is against Christianity, not against theism.
> From what I know of Mr. Lincoln, and from what I have heard and verily believe,
> I can say, first, that he did not believe in special creation, his idea being that all
> creation was an evolution under law; secondly, that he did not believe that the
> Bible was a special revelation from God, as the Christian world contends;
> thirdly, he did not believe in miracles as understood by Christians; fourthly, he
> believed in universal inspiration and miracles under law; fifthly, he did not
> believe that Jesus was the Christ, the son of God, as the Christian church
> contends; sixthly, he believed that all things, both matter and mind, were
> governed by laws, universal, absolute and eternal.
All this claims only that he was not a Christian.
> If he had been asked the plain question, “Do you know that a God exists?” he
> would have said: “I do not know that a God exists.”
Here Herndon is saying that he never heard Lincoln say that he was an atheist or an agnostic, so he’s going to make up an answer that he thinks that Lincoln would have said.
> The best evidence this side of Lincoln’s own written statement that he was an
> Infidel, if not an Atheist, as claimed by some, is the fact that he never mentions
> the name of Jesus.
Again, all this is only relevant to the question whether he is a Christian.
Why do you think we can believe Abbott and Herndon? They are only two sources among many. Even if they are accurate, all they show is that Lincoln wasn’t a Christian. You’re stepping beyond the evidence when you claim that Lincoln must have been an atheist.
McCain is neither an atheist nor an agnostic. He was chaplain of his group while a POW, and currently self-identifies as Baptist.
Lincoln was an atheist in the same sense that Obama is a Muslim - you merely have to ignore all the evidence on one side, make up some evidence on the other, and presto! it’s proved.
Regards,
Shodan
You must have missed this:
Diogenes the Cynic, that only proves that Herndon claims that Lincoln once said something that shows that he is a deist (or maybe a pantheist). Note that Herndon is not claiming that Lincoln said something like “Take out any mention of God, since I don’t believe in God.” Herndon is claiming that Lincoln said that there is no personal God.
Let me make a larger point though. This whole argument is misguided. There are three underlying claims that I don’t believe. This isn’t to say that the following ideas can’t possibly be true, but I don’t know of any real proof for them:
- If you believe that X is a personally good and/or historically beneficial person, you must have the same religious beliefs as them, or either you or that person is hypocritical in their beliefs.
This is the real reason why people insist on claiming that Lincoln, Washington, Jefferson, Franklin or various other American leading political figures were Christian, even when the historical record doesn’t give any good evidence for this claim or even when the evidence actually gives evidence against this claim. Far too many Americans’ political and religious beliefs are so tightly intertwined that they can’t believe that any of their political heroes could possibly disagree with their own religious beliefs. They feel a need to show that their heroes were Christian (just they are) or atheist (just like they are) or whatever. Similarly, they feel it necessary to show that any political figure that they disagree with must also disagree with them in religion. So because they themselves are Christian, they must show that the politician they disagree with on political issues must be Moslem or atheist or the follower of some weird anti-American black preacher.
- If you believe that X was a personally good and/or historically beneficial person, you must believe that he must have had clear and consistent religious beliefs.
I’m not at all convinced that Lincoln, for instance, had any clear and consistent religious beliefs. He said various things about religion that don’t entirely fit together. Similarly, perhaps Washington said little about religion because he didn’t know or care what he believed.
- Anyone who is even modestly intelligent and/or morally good must have clear and consistent religious, philosophical, and political beliefs.
I see lots of cases where this seems not to be true. I obviously can’t see into the minds of other people, but it appears to me that a lot of good, intelligent people don’t have consistent beliefs. Trying to attribute consistency to their beliefs just makes it harder to understand them.
I can’t, of course, prove that the above three statements are clearly wrong, but I can object when someone else claims that they are obviously true.
Theism is defined as a belief in a personal God (or gods). A rejection of that is atheism, by definition. Lincoln also never said he was even a deist. Those letters repeatedly say that his friends knew he was “an infidel at the least if not an atheist.” He used the word “providence” figuratively to refer to “fate” or the natural forces of the universe.
I don’t believe this at all.
This is not true in my case. I don’t care what they believed. I just draw conclusions from the actual evidence. The question in the OP was about what historical figures may have been atheists, even if they didn’t say so publicly. I think Lincoln has a very strong chance of it. I said that Jefferson was no a Christian, but did not call himself an atheist (or even a deist). I said that Washington seldom went to church, declined to participate in public prayers and that no one ever saw him pray in private. Therefore he may have been an atheist. I personally don’t care. I was showing what the evidence is for those cases.
I don’t believe this whatsoever. In fact, I think people who never change, waver or eveolve in their religious/philosophical thinking would be the exception, not the rule.
Who has claimed that any of these things are true?
I didn’t say that you personally believed any of the three statements that I had in my last post. I said that a lot of people believed these statements, and I thought that they were screwing up a lot of the arguments about what the religious beliefs of American historical political figures were.
(Do I really have to say that I wasn’t claiming that you believed those statements? How could you possibly get that from my post? Do I really need to spell out something that obvious? I was talking about the reasons why threads like this get started.)
Nonbelief in a personal God is not the same as atheism:
You still seem to be claiming that Lincoln had clear and consistent religious beliefs, which I’m not convinced of at all.