# People who open carry, how much police harassment do you put up with? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [January 1, 2015, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people-who-open-carry-how-much-police-harassment-do-you-put-up-with/708710 "2015-01-01T20:59:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 14\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Dickerman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/8baadc/32.png) [@Dickerman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dickerman)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2015, 10:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people-who-open-carry-how-much-police-harassment-do-you-put-up-with/708710/101 "2015-01-04T10:38:46Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > I’m certainly no pro-gun advocate, but ISTM the arguments against open-carry in this thread just don’t make sense. > > The real world is not Counter Strike, and the vast majority of criminals are not trying to kick off a killing spree. > Some guy looking to rob a convenience store is not going to see a customer with a weapon and think “Right – I’ll take him out first”. They’re either going to be a somewhat discouraged from committing the crime, or (if it’s really true that it’s logical to assume everyone is carrying a weapon) it would make no difference to see someone armed. Exactly. If it were true that open carrying increases the chance of being targeted first, you’d think there’d be a lot more attacks on open carriers than there are. The vast majority of open carriers are LEOs, so it’s a good thing that this simply isn’t true. Armed robbery is a high risk proposition, and even dumb criminals have a sense of self preservation and seek to limit risk. Also, in what way is the element of surprise a defensive tactic? It is certainly an effective offensive tactic, but non-LEO open carriers are carrying defensively. In a situation that warrants the defensive use of a handgun, the draw time can be significantly less for open carriers. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2015, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people-who-open-carry-how-much-police-harassment-do-you-put-up-with/708710/102 "2015-01-04T14:05:31Z")
> [@Onomatopoeia](#): > > The real answer is one you won’t like, which is open-carry for no one until such a time as blacks have a realistic expectation not to be shot when abiding by the same laws as whites as relates to the ownership and transportation of unconcealed firearms. You’d fix racism by banning anything currently legal that black men get targetted for doing? Are you also going to ban being married to a woman the harassers view as white (when she’s with her husband, not if she’s alone), or having a fancy car? ---
**Author:** ![Ethilrist](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ethilrist/32/4604_2.png) [@Ethilrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ethilrist)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2015, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people-who-open-carry-how-much-police-harassment-do-you-put-up-with/708710/103 "2015-01-04T15:35:43Z")
> [@LeaveMeAlone](#): > > I’m a cop and carry a concealed weapon off duty…I don’t understand open carry for the life of me…why advertise that you have a gun? So the bad guy knows who to shoot first? Unless your situational awareness is so good that you are never taken by surprise…sorry seems like grand standing to me… The main activists I’ve seen for open carry are in Texas, the land of reasonably mild winters and blazing hot summers. To me, it would seem their main reason for wanting open carry to be accepted rather than concealed carry is that, if you’re wearing jeans and a plaid shirt, it’s kinda tough to conceal a handgun, and they’re not going to carry a purse. > [@Frank](#): > > I’m the other way around. I can’t understand concealed carry. It would seem to me that if one is the type that believes in carrying around a firearm for self-defense in public, that it would be important for self-defense that the bad guy knows you can shoot back. Thus the need never arises. Then you have the frigid north, where, if you’re going out in winter time, you’re wearing a coat. If you open carry, you have to carry the gun on the outside of the coat. > [@grude](#): > > It kind of goes without saying that if open carry is not legal you will be arrested for it, right? Yes, but it also goes without saying that if it’s legal, you shouldn’t be killed for doing it. > [@Orwell](#): > > Yes, I realize people elect presumably like-minded people to represent them, but don’t pretend that passing more and more laws and regulations increases freedom. Quite the opposite, of course. Except for the 2nd Amendment. That was a good law, right? ---
**Author:** ![Orwell](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/dfb087/32.png) [@Orwell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Orwell)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2015, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people-who-open-carry-how-much-police-harassment-do-you-put-up-with/708710/104 "2015-01-04T16:09:35Z")
> [@Ethilrist](#): > > Except for the 2nd Amendment. That was a good law, right? The 2nd Amendment is not a law. In fact, it is exactly the opposite. It is an assertion of a right enjoyed by “the people” , protecting us from laws enacted by the government. Surely you wouldn’t refer to the 1st or 4th Amendments as laws, would you? The Bill of Rights are intended to protect us from laws that restrict our rights. Regarding open carry, I guess that most people assume that they are seeing a cop or other LEO when they see someone open carrying. Several previous posts support this opinion. I’m actually rethinking my opinion of open carry a bit. It probably prevents some crimes (very few, admittedly, if miscreants see someone with a gun and assume he is a cop. ---
**Author:** ![pkbites](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pkbites/32/204_2.png) [@pkbites](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pkbites)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2015, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people-who-open-carry-how-much-police-harassment-do-you-put-up-with/708710/105 "2015-01-04T19:39:17Z")
> [@Orwell](#): > > Regarding open carry, I guess that most people assume that they are seeing a cop or other LEO when they see someone open carrying. My own experience is that many people are oblivious to it. Don’t even notice the guy standing next to them is geared. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2015, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people-who-open-carry-how-much-police-harassment-do-you-put-up-with/708710/106 "2015-01-04T21:19:54Z")
> [@Onomatopoeia](#): > > The real answer is one you won’t like, which is open-carry for no one until such a time as blacks have a realistic expectation not to be shot when abiding by the same laws as whites as relates to the ownership and transportation of unconcealed firearms. You link to a single incident, and the guy in question wasnt even “open carrying”, and somehow this makes it that blacks have a realistic expectation to be shot when carrying. :dubious::rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2015, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people-who-open-carry-how-much-police-harassment-do-you-put-up-with/708710/107 "2015-01-04T21:31:54Z")
> [@PlainJain](#): > > Interesting link. There has to be more to that story though, right? Under no circumstance should he have been shot, but there must have been more to it than the police just walking up to him and gunning him down. Here’s a link to the Video. [http://www.whio.com/videos/news/surveillance-video-john-crawford-iii-at-walmart/vCtDmK/](http://www.whio.com/videos/news/surveillance-video-john-crawford-iii-at-walmart/vCtDmK/) Note he was not “carrying” he was “brandishing” (a number of times he was pointing it at other customers, but maybe not on purpose, he was just talking on the phone and not paying attention to where he was pointing it), and apparently raised the “gun” up at the cops when asked to drop it, instead of dropping it. [http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-nation/wp/2014/09/25/ohio-wal-mart-surveillance-video-shows-police-shooting-and-killing-john-crawford-iii/](http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-nation/wp/2014/09/25/ohio-wal-mart-surveillance-video-shows-police-shooting-and-killing-john-crawford-iii/) ---
**Author:** ![chiroptera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/df705f/32.png) [@chiroptera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chiroptera)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2015, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people-who-open-carry-how-much-police-harassment-do-you-put-up-with/708710/108 "2015-01-04T21:39:23Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Here’s a link to the Video. > [http://www.whio.com/videos/news/surveillance-video-john-crawford-iii-at-walmart/vCtDmK/](http://www.whio.com/videos/news/surveillance-video-john-crawford-iii-at-walmart/vCtDmK/) > Note he was not “carrying” he was “brandishing” (a number of times he was pointing it at other customers, but maybe not on purpose, he was just talking on the phone and not paying attention to where he was pointing it), and apparently raised the “gun” up at the cops when asked to drop it, instead of dropping it. > > [http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-nation/wp/2014/09/25/ohio-wal-mart-surveillance-video-shows-police-shooting-and-killing-john-crawford-iii/](http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-nation/wp/2014/09/25/ohio-wal-mart-surveillance-video-shows-police-shooting-and-killing-john-crawford-iii/) It doesn’t look like they gave him much warning, though it is hard to tell from that video. I admit though, I’d do a double-take if I saw someone casually waving around what to my untrained eye could well be an armed rifle. I’m pretty sure the skin color of the person wouldn’t matter to me either way. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2015, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people-who-open-carry-how-much-police-harassment-do-you-put-up-with/708710/109 "2015-01-05T17:19:39Z")
> [@chiroptera](#): > > It doesn’t look like they gave him much warning, though it is hard to tell from that video. > I admit though, I’d do a double-take if I saw someone casually waving around what to my untrained eye could well be an armed rifle. I’m pretty sure the skin color of the person wouldn’t matter to me either way. Yeah it’s possible that a nicely dressed white guy might have been given a millisecond longer to drop the gun, but that’s just Darwin in action. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2015, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people-who-open-carry-how-much-police-harassment-do-you-put-up-with/708710/110 "2015-01-05T17:31:52Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Yeah it’s possible that a nicely dressed white guy might have been given a millisecond longer to drop the gun, but that’s just Darwin in action. A nicely dressed white guy would have been asked if he wanted to apply for a Wal-Mart credit card. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2015, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people-who-open-carry-how-much-police-harassment-do-you-put-up-with/708710/111 "2015-01-05T17:51:13Z")
> [@Orwell](#): > > The 2nd Amendment is not a law. In fact, it is exactly the opposite. The Second Amendment is part of the Constitution, Article 6 of which states that the Constitution is the supreme law of the land. So yes, I would say that the Second Amendment is a law, since it is contained in the document that is the supreme law. Article 6 also states that judges and states do not get to overrule the Constitution. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Orwell](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/dfb087/32.png) [@Orwell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Orwell)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2015, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people-who-open-carry-how-much-police-harassment-do-you-put-up-with/708710/112 "2015-01-05T18:09:52Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Here’s a link to the Video. > [http://www.whio.com/videos/news/surveillance-video-john-crawford-iii-at-walmart/vCtDmK/](http://www.whio.com/videos/news/surveillance-video-john-crawford-iii-at-walmart/vCtDmK/) > Note he was not “carrying” he was “brandishing” (a number of times he was pointing it at other customers, but maybe not on purpose, he was just talking on the phone and not paying attention to where he was pointing it), and apparently raised the “gun” up at the cops when asked to drop it, instead of dropping it. I watched the entire video and not once did I see him point the toy gun at anyone, and not once did anyone appear to become alarmed or surprised by him. And he especially did not point or raise the gun at the police, who shot him immediately upon rounding the corner of the shopping aisle. Crawford appeared to have no chance to do anything other than get shot by the cops. Watch the last minute of the linked video. He had no chance whatsoever to avoid getting shot by the police. This instance, along with that of the 12 year old boy who was shot by the cops, certainly make it look like at least some police are irresponsibly quick to shoot before sizing up the situation or ascertaining whether there is a threat. Now, in fairness to the title of this thread, most people who open carry keep their gun in a holster and are not holding it in their hand, unlike these two unfortunate people who were carrying toy guns. A gun in a holster is obviously situationally different than someone holding a gun (or a toy that looks like a gun). ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2015, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people-who-open-carry-how-much-police-harassment-do-you-put-up-with/708710/113 "2015-01-05T18:33:09Z")
> [@Orwell](#): > > I watched the entire video and not once did I see him point the toy gun at anyone, and not once did anyone appear to become alarmed or surprised by him. And he especially did not point or raise the gun at the police, who shot him immediately upon rounding the corner of the shopping aisle. Crawford appeared to have no chance to do anything other than get shot by the cops. Watch the last minute of the linked video. He had no chance whatsoever to avoid getting shot by the police. Dude if you watch the whole vid, he was waving that thing around like a magic wand or something. Now, sure, like I said- it never appears he was deliberately aiming it at any one person, but the gun was pointing several times at other shoppers. I did watch the last minute. He didnt really react to the cops at all, just continued talking and waving the gun around. What he _didnt do_ is \*drop the damn thing when told to. \* ---
**Author:** ![Orwell](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/dfb087/32.png) [@Orwell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Orwell)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2015, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people-who-open-carry-how-much-police-harassment-do-you-put-up-with/708710/114 "2015-01-05T18:45:23Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Dude if you watch the whole vid, he was waving that thing around like a magic wand or something. Now, sure, like I said- it never appears he was deliberately aiming it at any one person, but the gun was pointing several times at other shoppers. > > I did watch the last minute. He didnt really react to the cops at all, just continued talking and waving the gun around. What he _didnt do_ is \*drop the damn thing when told to. \* At times he laid it across his shoulder, and he used it to poke at some stuff on a counter, but where does he wave it around when other shoppers are present? And especially when was it pointed at shoppers? I never saw that once. As for the last minute, he had no chance to drop it or do anything else. He was looking at something on the shelf and then appeared to be startled by the cops a split-second before he was shot. He had no chance to comply with any demands to drop it, if indeed that happened. The cops shot him instantly. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people-who-open-carry-how-much-police-harassment-do-you-put-up-with/708710.md?page=5)