# People Who Shout at Babies (i.e., my Hubby!) **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [December 12, 2004, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people-who-shout-at-babies-i-e-my-hubby/279458 "2004-12-12T15:30:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Kel\_Varnsen\_Latex\_Division](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/aeb1de/32.png) [@Kel\_Varnsen\_Latex\_Division](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kel_Varnsen_Latex_Division)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2004, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people-who-shout-at-babies-i-e-my-hubby/279458/81 "2004-12-14T03:04:19Z")
TVeblen, please check your e-mail. I will not respond to this further until I am given permission, but I wanted to say that what I advocated is not child abuse. Thank you. ---
**Author:** ![Kythereia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/e8c25b/32.png) [@Kythereia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kythereia)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2004, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people-who-shout-at-babies-i-e-my-hubby/279458/82 "2004-12-14T03:24:48Z")
_holds head_ **Kel:** My father spanked me a couple of times when I was younger. You know what I got out of that? A sore bum, a few tears, and some brief-lived resentment. My father also sat me down and lectured me when I brought home a bad report card, then took away some of my privileges around the house. You know what I got out of that? A real punishment–losing some of the things that mattered to me–and a new sense of direction at school. It’s like the link says: guidance for the child to understand and do better, not corporal punishment for the child to be hurt and angry and afraid. I apologize if this sounds like absolute shite, but it’s (closest to) what I wanted to say… ---
**Author:** ![TVeblen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/4bbf92/32.png) [@TVeblen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TVeblen)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2004, 3:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people-who-shout-at-babies-i-e-my-hubby/279458/83 "2004-12-14T03:25:25Z")
I’ve read it. And by all means quote the Illinois law if you wish, though your interpretation of hitting an infant with a rod wouldn’t '“cause injury” is disingeuous in the extreme. Your warning stands, **Kel**. You’ve established a very unlovely pattern of behavior, much of it [concering violence](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=5601137#post5601137). We are not amused. TVeblen Pit mod ---
**Author:** ![Kel\_Varnsen\_Latex\_Division](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/aeb1de/32.png) [@Kel\_Varnsen\_Latex\_Division](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kel_Varnsen_Latex_Division)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2004, 3:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people-who-shout-at-babies-i-e-my-hubby/279458/84 "2004-12-14T03:37:06Z")
In Illinois (the state the Reader is located in), hitting a child with a rod is not per se child abuse. Physical child abuse requires some form of injury (bruises or broken bones, etc.). At not time did I recommend beating a child until it is bruised or its bones are broken. Hitting with a rod does not have to cause injury. Hitting a child with a rod is an act of love as is meant to help the child not harm the child. Hitting a child until it is bruised or has abroken bone is wrong, but not hitting a defiant child is also wrong. Hitting a child with a rod is not child abuse and I would like to see you point to the law or case that states hitting a child with a rod is per se child abuse. > [@](#): > > You’ve established a very unlovely pattern of behavior, much of it concering violence. We are not amused. I am not sure what I said that was wrong in that thread. Men who are abusive show that behavior. I was pointing out that a woman should not have a child with an abusive man for the child’s sake. I can’t see how anyone could argue that it is a good idea for a woman to not be totally careful about avoiding having a child with an abusive man. ---
**Author:** ![Kel\_Varnsen\_Latex\_Division](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/aeb1de/32.png) [@Kel\_Varnsen\_Latex\_Division](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kel_Varnsen_Latex_Division)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2004, 3:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people-who-shout-at-babies-i-e-my-hubby/279458/85 "2004-12-14T03:39:07Z")
Forgot the link: [http://www.state.il.us/dcfs/FAQ/faq\_faq\_can.shtml](http://www.state.il.us/dcfs/FAQ/faq_faq_can.shtml) ---
**Author:** ![Jenaroph](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e8c25b/32.png) [@Jenaroph](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jenaroph)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2004, 3:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people-who-shout-at-babies-i-e-my-hubby/279458/86 "2004-12-14T03:47:00Z")
> [@Jenaroph](#): > > Kel, you DO realize that the “rod” is properly translated as a [shepherd’s crook](http://www.faithtrustinstitute.org/Articles/rod-of-guidence.htm), not a big butt-whacking stick, right? > > Guidance, not corporal punishment, is what the Bible is advocating. > [@vivalostwages](#): > > Doesn’t look like he bothered (or will bother) to click on that link. Nope, I kinda doubted he would. ---
**Author:** ![Uvula\_Donor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/e19adc/32.png) [@Uvula\_Donor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uvula_Donor)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2004, 3:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people-who-shout-at-babies-i-e-my-hubby/279458/87 "2004-12-14T03:47:59Z")
> [@Kel Varnsen - Latex Division](#): > > In Illinois (the state the Reader is located in), hitting a child with a rod is not per se child abuse. Did you bother to read your own link? > [@Illinois Department of Children and Family Services](#): > > WHEN SHOULD I CALL THE HOTLINE? > > You should call the child abuse hotline whenever you believe that a person who is caring for the child, who lives with the child, or who works with or around children has caused injury or harm or put the child at risk of physical injury as defined in the Abused and Neglected Child Reporting Act. Some examples include: > > **If you see someone hitting a child with an object**. [Bolding mine.] So, is a rod not “an object”? ---
**Author:** ![Kel\_Varnsen\_Latex\_Division](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/aeb1de/32.png) [@Kel\_Varnsen\_Latex\_Division](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kel_Varnsen_Latex_Division)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2004, 3:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people-who-shout-at-babies-i-e-my-hubby/279458/88 "2004-12-14T03:49:10Z")
That is a warning sign to call about. It does not per se mean the child is abused. ---
**Author:** ![Kel\_Varnsen\_Latex\_Division](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/aeb1de/32.png) [@Kel\_Varnsen\_Latex\_Division](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kel_Varnsen_Latex_Division)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2004, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people-who-shout-at-babies-i-e-my-hubby/279458/89 "2004-12-14T03:50:25Z")
> [@](#): > > Originally Posted by Jenaroph > > Kel, you DO realize that the “rod” is properly translated as a shepherd’s crook, not a big butt-whacking stick, right? > > Guidance, not corporal punishment, is what the Bible is advocating. I disagree with that meaning. ---
**Author:** ![Kythereia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/e8c25b/32.png) [@Kythereia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kythereia)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2004, 3:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people-who-shout-at-babies-i-e-my-hubby/279458/90 "2004-12-14T03:51:26Z")
It’s a warning sign, but it doesn’t mean they’re being abused? I’m really not following your logic here, **Kel**. ---
**Author:** ![Kel\_Varnsen\_Latex\_Division](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/aeb1de/32.png) [@Kel\_Varnsen\_Latex\_Division](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kel_Varnsen_Latex_Division)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2004, 3:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people-who-shout-at-babies-i-e-my-hubby/279458/91 "2004-12-14T03:55:09Z")
Just because a guy buys a one-way ticket with cash and has no luggage doesn’t mean he is a hijacker, but it sure is a warning sign. Further investigation is needed. ---
**Author:** ![Jenaroph](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e8c25b/32.png) [@Jenaroph](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jenaroph)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2004, 3:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people-who-shout-at-babies-i-e-my-hubby/279458/92 "2004-12-14T03:55:51Z")
Dude…Karl… I see absolutely nothing in that link that says “hitting a kid with a rod is OKey-dokey.” Aside from **Uvula** ’s quote, there’s also: > [@](#): > > Child abuse is the mistreatment of a child under the age of 18\*\* by a parent\*\*, caretaker, someone living in their home or someone who works with or around children. The mistreatment must cause injury or **must put the child at risk of physical injury.** Bolding mine. ISn’t hitting someone with a stick putting them at risk of injury? So there’s a check mark beside two warning signs of abuse, perpetrated by an individual specifically indicated as a potential abuser, in a link you put forward to _support_ your side. Quit digging. ---
**Author:** ![Kel\_Varnsen\_Latex\_Division](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/aeb1de/32.png) [@Kel\_Varnsen\_Latex\_Division](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kel_Varnsen_Latex_Division)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2004, 4:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people-who-shout-at-babies-i-e-my-hubby/279458/93 "2004-12-14T04:01:47Z")
> [@](#): > > ISn’t hitting someone with a stick putting them at risk of injury? Not if doen properly. > [@](#): > > I see absolutely nothing in that link that says “hitting a kid with a rod is OKey-dokey.” It also doesn’t say it is per se illegal. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Asbestos\_Mango](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/edb3f5/32.png) [@The\_Asbestos\_Mango](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Asbestos_Mango)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2004, 4:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people-who-shout-at-babies-i-e-my-hubby/279458/94 "2004-12-14T04:02:07Z")
> [@Kel Varnsen - Latex Division](#): > > Hitting a child with a rod is an act of love as is meant to help the child not harm the child. Hitting a child until it is bruised or has abroken bone is wrong, but not hitting a defiant child is also wrong. Um, in order to be defiant, a child must first be capable of understanding and following the parent’s instructions or, if you will, commands. You have already admitted in this thread that you are aware that a ten-month-old baby is not able to understand verbal instructions/commands. Obviously, a pre-verbal infant is not capable of following instructions if he is not able to understand them. Therefore, a ten-month-old is not capable of defiance. I’m not totally against coropral punishment, but I believe that is should be used sparingly, and only in emergency situations (a smack on the hand when the child is about to grab a hot skillet) or if other, non-violent disciplinary measures have failed. Hitting a pre-verbal infant is child abuse. Period. ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2004, 4:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people-who-shout-at-babies-i-e-my-hubby/279458/95 "2004-12-14T04:02:39Z")
> [@TVeblen](#): > > We are not amused. Queen Victoria is here. Everybody straighten up. _…save our gracious Queen God save the …_ We’ve just received word that HRH is now browsing MPSIMS. Please carry on with the eviceration of Mr. Division. ---
**Author:** ![Kel\_Varnsen\_Latex\_Division](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/aeb1de/32.png) [@Kel\_Varnsen\_Latex\_Division](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kel_Varnsen_Latex_Division)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2004, 4:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people-who-shout-at-babies-i-e-my-hubby/279458/96 "2004-12-14T04:04:06Z")
> [@](#): > > Um, in order to be defiant, a child must first be capable of understanding and following the parent’s instructions or, if you will, commands. Defiance does not require understanding. ---
**Author:** ![TellMeI\_mNotCrazy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tellmei_mnotcrazy/32/3419_2.png) [@TellMeI\_mNotCrazy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TellMeI_mNotCrazy)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2004, 4:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people-who-shout-at-babies-i-e-my-hubby/279458/97 "2004-12-14T04:07:04Z")
> [@Kel Varnsen - Latex Division](#): > > Defiance does not require understanding. defiance: willingness to contend or fight Willingness, meaning knowing what is unwanted, and willingly doing the opposite. Knowing, of course, meaning understanding. Of course, this means I can’t even label YOU defiant, cause you clearly don’t understand a damn thing. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Asbestos\_Mango](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/edb3f5/32.png) [@The\_Asbestos\_Mango](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Asbestos_Mango)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2004, 4:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people-who-shout-at-babies-i-e-my-hubby/279458/98 "2004-12-14T04:10:23Z")
> [@TellMeI'mNotCrazy](#): > > defiance: willingness to contend or fight > > Willingness, meaning knowing what is unwanted, and willingly doing the opposite. > > Knowing, of course, meaning understanding. > Of course, this means I can’t even label YOU defiant, cause you clearly don’t understand a damn thing. Damn. I just got out my dictionary and looked up “defiance” and was just getting ready to post pretty much the same thing and you beat me to it. :wally ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2004, 4:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people-who-shout-at-babies-i-e-my-hubby/279458/99 "2004-12-14T04:10:51Z")
Well, just wait. Pretty soon the admin will correct our defiant friend **Kel** here with the ban rod, and we’ll all be happy. ---
**Author:** ![TellMeI\_mNotCrazy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tellmei_mnotcrazy/32/3419_2.png) [@TellMeI\_mNotCrazy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TellMeI_mNotCrazy)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2004, 4:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people-who-shout-at-babies-i-e-my-hubby/279458/100 "2004-12-14T04:13:28Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > Well, just wait. Pretty soon the admin will correct our defiant friend **Kel** here with the ban rod, and we’ll all be happy. And it will be an act of luuurve. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people-who-shout-at-babies-i-e-my-hubby/279458.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people-who-shout-at-babies-i-e-my-hubby/279458.md?page=6)