# People who want to convert my religion **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 28, 2010, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people-who-want-to-convert-my-religion/565561 "2010-12-28T00:51:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2010, 10:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people-who-want-to-convert-my-religion/565561/21 "2010-12-28T10:10:11Z")
> [@WhyNot](#): > > That’s not even touching the theology, of course, only the social and personal support networks that any church provides. Add in the Christian theology that teaches that people around you, even those you love very very much, are going to burn in hell for all eternity without Jesus, and frankly, I think it amazing that there are any Christians who DON’T proselytize. If you knew your mom was about to drive off a cliff and die a fiery death, wouldn’t you beg her to change her route? (That’s pretty much Exhibit A on my list of Reasons I Suspect Most “Christians” Don’t Believe Their Own Religion.) Could that not be a slightly simplistic take on the whole thing? i.e. that the best or right way to bring about some desirable outcome is by brute-forcing it? What about (for instance) if these “Christians” trust their God to exert the influence, while they provide the support, or who feel that hammering on someone’s face isn’t the best way to make them listen or accept your point? I mean - most people simply despise spam and loathe spammers, even if the product being spammed really _is_ wonderful. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2010, 10:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people-who-want-to-convert-my-religion/565561/22 "2010-12-28T10:29:06Z")
In line with what **Mangetout** said, and don’t ask me why I’m having such a “saintly” day: the RCC’s co-patrons of missionary work are Francis Xavier and [Thérèse of Lisieux](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Th%C3%A9r%C3%A8se_of_Lisieux), who definitely didn’t go to people’s homes and badger them about converting. Making her one of the patrons of missionary work is a reminder of the power of prayer, of leading through example, and of “the virtues of ordinary lives” - Xavi provides the “extraordinary lives” patronage, although he was more of a soapbox than bang-on-doors type. ---
**Author:** ![Keeve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/f07891/32.png) [@Keeve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Keeve)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2010, 10:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people-who-want-to-convert-my-religion/565561/23 "2010-12-28T10:53:42Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > I have friends who are deeply religious. Sometimes I find it weird that they are so accepting of my atheism. In their view, I’m likely to end up _in hell_. Don’t they care? I am an observant Jew, and I’d like to offer our view on this. Yes, we certainly do care. But there are two independent reasons why we don’t proselytize. First, God does not have the same demands of everyone. We believe that there are plenty of acceptable religions for non-Jews. A non-Jew does not have to convert to Judaism to get to heaven. More details available on request. But the second part is perhaps more important, that being the question of why we don’t try to influence the Jews to be better Jews, and the non-Jews to be better non-Jews. And the answer to that – as evidenced by many of the posts in this thread – is that active proselytizing often backfires, resulting in lots of resentment and few genuine converts. Thus, the Jewish approach is to simply set a good example and welcome anyone who shows an interest. ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2010, 1:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people-who-want-to-convert-my-religion/565561/24 "2010-12-28T13:15:43Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > Could that not be a slightly simplistic take on the whole thing? Of course it is. But I gotta tell ya, if I believed it, I couldn’t “play the long game”, as someone said upthread. There \*is \*no long game, when people I love could die _any day_, for any reason, and end up either in hell or simply not in the grace of God. I’d be in a sheer panic over that. Because, yes, proselytizing _doesn’t_ work, which would mean I’d be utterly helpless, a sinner in the hand of an angry god, as someone with much better rhetorical skills than I once said. ---
**Author:** ![Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b38774/32.png) [@Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Attack_from_the_3rd_dimension)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2010, 1:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people-who-want-to-convert-my-religion/565561/25 "2010-12-28T13:26:08Z")
> [@Keeve](#): > > I am an observant Jew, and I’d like to offer our view on this. > > Yes, we certainly do care. But there are two independent reasons why we don’t proselytize. First, God does not have the same demands of everyone. We believe that there are plenty of acceptable religions for non-Jews. A non-Jew does not have to convert to Judaism to get to heaven. More details available on request. > > But the second part is perhaps more important, that being the question of why we don’t try to influence the Jews to be better Jews, and the non-Jews to be better non-Jews. And the answer to that – as evidenced by many of the posts in this thread – is that active proselytizing often backfires, resulting in lots of resentment and few genuine converts. Thus, the Jewish approach is to simply set a good example and welcome anyone who shows an interest. Buddhists (well, most buddhists, there are more kinds of buddhists than there are kinds of potato chip) have a similar approach. In general the view is - stick with your own religion, see where it takes you. No need to become a buddhist now, you’ve got lots of time, just try to live a good life in this life. ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2010, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people-who-want-to-convert-my-religion/565561/26 "2010-12-28T14:03:05Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > I have friends who are deeply religious. Sometimes I find it weird that they are so accepting of my atheism. In their view, I’m likely to end up _in hell_. Don’t they care? They’re probably aware that you’ve already actively rejected the notion of Jesus as savior. Pearls before swine and all that. Barnes’ Notes on the Bible: > [@](#): > > Give not that which is holy … - By some the word “holy” has been supposed to mean “flesh offered in sacrifice,” made holy, or separated to a sacred use; but it probably means here “anything connected with religion” - admonition, precept, or doctrine. Pearls are precious stones found in shell-fish, chiefly in India, in the waters that surround Ceylon. They are used to denote anything especially precious, [Revelation 17:4; Revelation 18:12-16; Matthew 13:45.] In this place they are used to denote the doctrines of the gospel. “Dogs” signify people who spurn, oppose, and abuse that doctrine; people of special sourness and malignity of temper, who meet it like growling and quarrelsome curs, [Philippians 3:2; 2 Peter 2:22; Revelation 22:15]. “Swine” denote those who would trample the precepts underfoot; people of impurity of life; those who are corrupt, polluted, profane, obscene, and sensual; those who would not know the value of the gospel, and who would tread it down as swine would pearls, [2 Peter 2:22; Proverbs 11:22]. The meaning of this proverb, then, is, do not offer your doctrine to those violent and abusive people who would growl and curse you; nor to those especially debased and profligate who would not perceive its value, would trample it down, and would abuse you. ---
**Author:** ![Ferret\_Herder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e47774/32.png) [@Ferret\_Herder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ferret_Herder)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2010, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people-who-want-to-convert-my-religion/565561/27 "2010-12-28T14:35:02Z")
> [@Strinka](#): > > If you thought someone was going to be tortured for eternity, wouldn’t you try to prevent that? My family went to a pretty strict Christian church when I was a kid, and this was my fear. I had a friend who didn’t believe in God, and according to that church, you had to accept Jesus as your savior or you were going to Hell forever. I was terrified for her, and tried to get her to go to church with me and so on. I think I eventually exhausted myself with my efforts - she went to a Vacation Bible School session with me one summer (probably just to hang out with me as well as make me shut up already), and when I saw that even the adults’ sessions didn’t get through, I figured there was nothing else I could do other than live a good example. I’m just glad that at the time, I didn’t know anyone else who wasn’t professing to be other than Christian. Dealing with that kind of utter fear and worry over a friend’s fate was really anxiety-provoking. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2010, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people-who-want-to-convert-my-religion/565561/28 "2010-12-28T15:20:43Z")
> [@WhyNot](#): > > Of course it is. > > But I gotta tell ya, if I believed it, I couldn’t “play the long game”, as someone said upthread. There \*is \*no long game, when people I love could die _any day_, for any reason, and end up either in hell or simply not in the grace of God. I’d be in a sheer panic over that. Because, yes, proselytizing _doesn’t_ work, which would mean I’d be utterly helpless, a sinner in the hand of an angry god, as someone with much better rhetorical skills than I once said. People who play the fast game can’t really be trusting that God is in control, can they? Alongside the message, there’s supposed to be a measure of serenity and faith in the work of the Holy Spirit upon the hearts of men and women, as far as I understand it. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2010, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people-who-want-to-convert-my-religion/565561/29 "2010-12-28T15:23:09Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > You could turn it around and ask why religious people don’t do _more_ to convert others. > > I have friends who are deeply religious. Sometimes I find it weird that they are so accepting of my atheism. In their view, I’m likely to end up _in hell_. Don’t they care? What would you prefer them to do? Would that work either? ---
**Author:** ![Ferret\_Herder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e47774/32.png) [@Ferret\_Herder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ferret_Herder)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2010, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people-who-want-to-convert-my-religion/565561/30 "2010-12-28T15:53:48Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > People who play the fast game can’t really be trusting that God is in control, can they? Alongside the message, there’s supposed to be a measure of serenity and faith in the work of the Holy Spirit upon the hearts of men and women, as far as I understand it. Not necessarily, if I understand your point correctly. Their message is that to be a good Christian, you must go out and spread the Word. You are obviously “hiding your light under a bushel” if you do not proselytize. Those who reject the message will be damned to Hell, as will those who never hear it (thus the need to send missionaries to faraway lands). God being in charge doesn’t come into play here. It’s supposedly the job of his flock to spread the Word. If you’re overlooked in some faraway land, that’s the screwup of his lazy and sinful flock. If you’ve heard it but haven’t converted, that might either be Satan influencing you, or maybe some slacker Christian friend/relative just didn’t try hard enough. ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2010, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people-who-want-to-convert-my-religion/565561/31 "2010-12-28T16:00:51Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > People who play the fast game can’t really be trusting that God is in control, can they? No, they can’t. But if God IS in control of who is saved and who isn’t and people choosing Jesus isn’t important, then He’s just a right bastard anyhow for not picking Aunt Clara. And if God\* isn’t\* in control, then I’m panicking again. And loved ones who have lived good lives full of good deeds die every day without accepting Jesus as their personal lord and savior, meaning that they’re going to hell or not going to be in the presence of God. And this happens even though you (general you, not you you) may have set a good example and waited for God to send the Holy Spirit in their direction, so obviously that strategy doesn’t work, either. There’s no winning. The only winning move is not to play, which is why I’m a pagan. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2010, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people-who-want-to-convert-my-religion/565561/32 "2010-12-28T16:11:06Z")
> [@Ferret\_Herder](#): > > Not necessarily, if I understand your point correctly. Their message is that to be a good Christian, you must go out and spread the Word. You are obviously “hiding your light under a bushel” if you do not proselytize. Those who reject the message will be damned to Hell, as will those who never hear it (thus the need to send missionaries to faraway lands). > > God being in charge doesn’t come into play here. It’s supposedly the job of his flock to spread the Word. If you’re overlooked in some faraway land, that’s the screwup of his lazy and sinful flock. If you’ve heard it but haven’t converted, that might either be Satan influencing you, or maybe some slacker Christian friend/relative just didn’t try hard enough. No, my point is entirely this: Interpreting ‘Spreading the word’ to mean getting in people’s faces and annoying them, is quite likely an absurdly selective, and not very useful simplification. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2010, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people-who-want-to-convert-my-religion/565561/33 "2010-12-28T16:15:53Z")
> [@WhyNot](#): > > No, they can’t. But if God IS in control of who is saved and who isn’t and people choosing Jesus isn’t important, then He’s just a right bastard anyhow for not picking Aunt Clara. And if God\* isn’t\* in control, then I’m panicking again. And loved ones who have lived good lives full of good deeds die every day without accepting Jesus as their personal lord and savior, meaning that they’re going to hell or not going to be in the presence of God. And this happens even though you (general you, not you you) may have set a good example and waited for God to send the Holy Spirit in their direction, so obviously that strategy doesn’t work, either. There’s no winning. Well, I’ll concede that the obligation to aggressively proselytise does indeed spring quite naturally out of a cut-and-dried theology like that, but not all of Christianity views things in exactly that way (although the more vocal elements do, but that’s \*why \*they’re vocal) ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2010, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people-who-want-to-convert-my-religion/565561/34 "2010-12-28T16:32:23Z")
I used to have a bunch of Joseph Campbell lectures on tape that I would listen to on headphones while out riding my bike, and during the course of one of those lectures, he said something that really struck me as getting to the root of the urge to proselytize. Basically he said that subconsciously, religious people know their beliefs are irrational. No matter how much they try to convince themselves otherwise, their subconscious minds are still able to see things rationally and see that they don’t add up. This creates a constant state of cognitive dissonance and anxiety which they try to resolve by convincing others to believe the same thing they do. Really, they’re just engaged in a continuous cycle of trying to convince _themselves_, but it never really works, especially since they can’t do it rationally and analytically, but have to rely on the same fallacies and wishful thinking that creates their subconscious tension in the first place. The more emotionally invested they are in their religion, the more desperate their attempts become. Proselytization is a symptom of doubt. ---
**Author:** ![dotchan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9d8465/32.png) [@dotchan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dotchan)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2010, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people-who-want-to-convert-my-religion/565561/35 "2010-12-28T16:34:41Z")
(Full disclosure: Christian, self-identifies as non-denominational but vaguely Reform Protestant leaning with regards to theology.) Why proselytize? 1. God said so. Be witnesses, make disciples of all nations, let your light shine and all that. (There are all sorts of ways to do this. Personally, I happen to think walking the streets and handing out tracts willy nilly is not the best way to do things, but your mileage may vary.) 2. Genuine concern. Not just in not wanting my loved ones to go to hell. I’m always recommending things I like, find helpful, or are just good to others, so why not my faith? 3. Personal ego. We like being able to influence people. (Though in my experience trying to “convert” people that way tends to backfire.) As far as Predestination goes, I see it this way: it’s only my job to get the message out, largely by the way I live my life, but I’m also supposed to be honest and eloquent when asked. It’s God’s job to save people. I’m not allowed to give up on anyone by rationalizing: “Oh, God didn’t choose them”, because I don’t know if that’s true or not. If you’d like to talk to me one on one about theology (i.e. via chat or PM), I’ll be more than happy to oblige. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2010, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people-who-want-to-convert-my-religion/565561/36 "2010-12-28T16:36:50Z")
> [@dotchan](#): > > 1. Genuine concern. Not just in not wanting my loved ones to go to hell. Would God send anybody to Hell who didn’t deserve it? ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2010, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people-who-want-to-convert-my-religion/565561/37 "2010-12-28T16:39:20Z")
> [@WhyNot](#): > > And loved ones who have lived good lives full of good deeds die every day without accepting Jesus as their personal lord and savior, meaning that they’re going to hell or not going to be in the presence of God. And this happens even though you (general you, not you you) may have set a good example and waited for God to send the Holy Spirit in their direction, so obviously that strategy doesn’t work, either. Yeah, there’s some personal obligation there. Anyone who knows enough to complain that Christians aren’t doing enough to save them from Hell already knows enough to take the personal initiative to save themselves from Hell if they were actually concerned. Given that they’re not concerned, expecting Christians to come by and waste their time on them is pretty silly given that there’s people out there actually receptive to hearing the Word. I’m not particularly religious, by the way, but I know enough to understand why being an atheist (or whatever) who’s put out by not being proselytized to by their religious friends is kind of ridiculous. Jesus states that if a town refuses to receive you, shakes its dust off your feet and move on, not to spend the next couple of months there wasting your time just to prove how really, really Christian you are. ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2010, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people-who-want-to-convert-my-religion/565561/38 "2010-12-28T16:41:15Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > The more emotionally invested they are in their religion, the more desperate their attempts become. Proselytization is a symptom of doubt. So if you proselytize, you’re a doubting desperate person with no faith in their beliefs. If you don’t proselytize, you’re a failed Christian who doesn’t love their friends and family enough to save them from Hell. Can’t win for losing, I suppose. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2010, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people-who-want-to-convert-my-religion/565561/39 "2010-12-28T16:41:21Z")
Another way to look at this is in terms of evolution: Those things that are successful in copying themselves tend to prevail over those that do not. ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2010, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people-who-want-to-convert-my-religion/565561/40 "2010-12-28T16:42:22Z")
I think Joseph Cambell’s subconscious must be a lot more rational than mine. Mine is usually spending its time trying to sabotage my efforts because it’s so very _irrational_, like a 2 year old having a temper tantrum, rather than being MORE rational than my conscious mind. Then again, I’ve been heartily accused by many people of many faiths (and none at all) about being too much “in my head” and needing to be more “in my heart.” So maybe my conscious mind is more pointedly rational than others’…but I still wouldn’t trust my subconscious to choose a rational paint color, much less depend on it to see through religion rationally. ETA: Shoot, I can’t seem to Quote a post on Edit. In Re: to **Dio** ’s post above, of course. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people-who-want-to-convert-my-religion/565561.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people-who-want-to-convert-my-religion/565561.md?page=3)