# People who want to convert my religion **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 28, 2010, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people-who-want-to-convert-my-religion/565561 "2010-12-28T00:51:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![bizerta](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3be4f8/32.png) [@bizerta](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bizerta)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2010, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people-who-want-to-convert-my-religion/565561/41 "2010-12-28T16:42:41Z")
> [@Chimera](#): > > If you see their light, it reassures them that their light is not a mirage. In my opinion, this is the most logical answer to my question. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2010, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people-who-want-to-convert-my-religion/565561/42 "2010-12-28T16:45:48Z")
There seems to be a presumption in this “save them from Hell” thing that God is an asshole who tortures people eternally, no matter how good they may have been in their lives, just because they failed to be convinced, without evidence, which religion was the correct one. How is this belief consistent with a benevolent God? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2010, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people-who-want-to-convert-my-religion/565561/43 "2010-12-28T16:48:45Z")
> [@Jophiel](#): > > So if you proselytize, you’re a doubting desperate person with no faith in their beliefs. > > If you don’t proselytize, you’re a failed Christian who doesn’t love their friends and family enough to save them from Hell. > > Can’t win for losing, I suppose. I said the first part, not the second part. I don’t believe the second part at all. I would argue that being a good Christian was pretty simply defined by Jesus in the parable of the sheep and the goats. Jesus also said the only thing you had to do to earn eternal life was to love God and love your neighbor. Nothing about proselytizing. If you think your loved ones deserve to be eternally tortured, you must not love them very much anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2010, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people-who-want-to-convert-my-religion/565561/44 "2010-12-28T16:50:03Z")
Moving thread from IMHO to Great Debates. ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2010, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people-who-want-to-convert-my-religion/565561/45 "2010-12-28T17:09:42Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Jesus also said the only thing you had to do to earn eternal life was to love God and love your neighbor. Nothing about proselytizing. _“All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you.”_ ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2010, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people-who-want-to-convert-my-religion/565561/46 "2010-12-28T17:16:44Z")
Nevertheless, he said the only two things you had to do to get _eternal life_ was to love God and love your neighbor. He also defined those things as being equivalent in the Parable of the Sheep and the Goats ("…whatever you do to the least of my brothers, you do to me"). Jesus didn’t say you would go to Hell if you didn’t preach at people. Do you think God sends people to Hell who don’t deserve it? ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2010, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people-who-want-to-convert-my-religion/565561/47 "2010-12-28T17:20:48Z")
> [@FriarTed](#): > > **bizerta** , here are the offenses you listed: > > Why do Mormons stop me on the street? > Why do Jehovah Witnesses knock on my door? > Why did they kill so many Jews during the Spanish Inquisition unless they converted to Christianity? > Lastly, why can’t Ed Conrad stop posting his creationist drivel all over the Internet? > ~ > Can we agree that one of these things are not like the others? What doesn’t belong and why? I know the answer. The Catholic Church during the Inquisition had significant secular power, and thus was able to get away with things that would put someone in jail today. Not that Catholics are particularly blameworthy - in Elizabethan England Catholics who would sneak into the country to spread the word got their heads chopped off. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2010, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people-who-want-to-convert-my-religion/565561/48 "2010-12-28T17:21:26Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > [QUOTE=Mijin] > I have friends who are deeply religious. Sometimes I find it weird that they are so accepting of my atheism. In their view, I’m likely to end up in hell. Don’t they care? What would you prefer them to do? Would that work either? [/QUOTE] I’m saying I find it weird that they don’t attempt to convert me, not that I wish they would. * * * A few people have asked which faiths these “deeply religious friends” belong to. Well, the friends I had in mind are either Muslim, probably Sunni, and a couple of people I know belong to a small (_cough_ cult) Christian group that I can’t remember the name of. I’m pretty ignorant on the details: perhaps neither of these faiths believe that non-believers are automatically damned. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2010, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people-who-want-to-convert-my-religion/565561/49 "2010-12-28T17:25:19Z")
> [@athelas](#): > > Yeah, I find proseletyzing to be perfectly rational for religions that feature spiritual rewards/punishments and free will. If you believe in Heaven and Hell, it’s pretty much your _duty_ to do what you can to get people from the latter to the former. You’d be a right bastard not to. And they are absolutely positive about it. Of course, when you ask them to justify their beliefs, it suddenly becomes a matter of faith which is independent of evidence. ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2010, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people-who-want-to-convert-my-religion/565561/50 "2010-12-28T17:25:46Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Jesus didn’t say you would go to Hell if you didn’t preach at people. If you love God (and Jesus), you won’t treat the Great Commission as a polite suggestion to accept or discard as you feel like doing. “Love ya, Jesus, but that stuff you commanded me to do in your name? Yeeeaahhh… kind of busy today and don’t really feel like it. Still think you’re swell though. Honest! Ok, see ya in Heaven!” > [@](#): > > Do you think God sends people to Hell who don’t deserve it? I think that’s a meaningless question. “Deserve” according to whose criteria? If God sends you to hell, one would presume that God thinks you deserve it. My opinion on whether or not you deserve it seems pretty moot. ---
**Author:** ![Superfluous\_Parentheses](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8edcca/32.png) [@Superfluous\_Parentheses](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Superfluous_Parentheses)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2010, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people-who-want-to-convert-my-religion/565561/51 "2010-12-28T17:33:59Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > You could turn it around and ask why religious people don’t do _more_ to convert others. > > I have friends who are deeply religious. Sometimes I find it weird that they are so accepting of my atheism. In their view, I’m likely to end up _in hell_. Don’t they care? My simplistic answer is that, generally, believers view God as an idealized version of _themselves_. Since _they_ wouldn’t put their friends in hell for an eternity just for non-belief, they don’t believe God would do that either. Even if the dogma they supposedly hold true teaches the opposite. And in the end, nobody alive can prove either side correct. > [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > I used to have a bunch of Joseph Campbell lectures on tape that I would listen to on headphones while out riding my bike, and during the course of one of those lectures, he said something that really struck me as getting to the root of the urge to proselytize. Basically he said that subconsciously, religious people know their beliefs are irrational. No matter how much they try to convince themselves otherwise, their subconscious minds are still able to see things rationally and see that they don’t add up. While you give this as a reason to proselytize, in my view it can also work exactly the other way - causing people to shy away from making their belief systems public; especially when the dogma doesn’t match their actual beliefs. ---
**Author:** ![dotchan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9d8465/32.png) [@dotchan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dotchan)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2010, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people-who-want-to-convert-my-religion/565561/52 "2010-12-28T18:26:48Z")
To use a metaphor, Heaven is a very exclusive club. If you’re not on the list, you can’t get in the door. Nothing else matters. The responsibility of a Christian is to send out the invites, so that nobody can use “I was never asked to RSVP” as an excuse. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2010, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people-who-want-to-convert-my-religion/565561/53 "2010-12-28T19:20:09Z")
> [@Jophiel](#): > > If you love God (and Jesus), you won’t treat the Great Commission as a polite suggestion to accept or discard as you feel like doing. “Love ya, Jesus, but that stuff you commanded me to do in your name? Yeeeaahhh… kind of busy today and don’t really feel like it. Still think you’re swell though. Honest! Ok, see ya in Heaven!” Jesus said it, not me. Jesus said all you have to do is love your neighbor. Take it up with him. > [@](#): > > I think that’s a meaningless question. “Deserve” according to whose criteria? If God sends you to hell, one would presume that God thinks you deserve it. My opinion on whether or not you deserve it seems pretty moot. Presumably you would have to agree that God can’t be wrong, so you would also have to agree that whoever God sends to Hell deserves it, right? Therefore if God sends your loved ones to Hell, you would have to agree that they deserve it, because God can’t be wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2010, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people-who-want-to-convert-my-religion/565561/54 "2010-12-28T19:27:46Z")
> [@dotchan](#): > > To use a metaphor, Heaven is a very exclusive club. If you’re not on the list, you can’t get in the door. Nothing else matters. > > The responsibility of a Christian is to send out the invites, so that nobody can use “I was never asked to RSVP” as an excuse. Most clubs don’t torture you forever if you decide not to join. Why do people who turn down the invitation deserve to be tortured? Why do they require an “excuse” not to join a club they’re not interested in? What business is that of the club? Do you really think that your God tortures people forever, even if they’re good people, just because they fail to guess, with no evidence at all, which fantastic religious beliefs are the correct ones? Why would you follow such a God? Pure fear? You might as well worship Cthuhlu. Furthermore, if someone never does receive the invitation, what happens to them? Do they still get tirtured by your God, or do they get a free pass because they weren’t invited. If not being invited gets you a free pass, then wouldn’t it make more sense NOT to invite anybody, because then you would insure they get to heaven? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2010, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people-who-want-to-convert-my-religion/565561/55 "2010-12-28T19:35:32Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Furthermore, if someone never does receive the invitation, what happens to them? Do they still get tirtured by your God, or do they get a free pass because they weren’t invited. If not being invited gets you a free pass, then wouldn’t it make more sense NOT to invite anybody, because then you would insure they get to heaven? Makes me think of this Discworld quote: > [@](#): > > The Gods Of The Disc have never bothered much about judging the souls of the dead, and so people only go to hell if that’s where they believe, in their deepest hearts, that they deserve to go. Which they can’t do if they don’t know about it. This explains why it is important to shoot missionaries on sight. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2010, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people-who-want-to-convert-my-religion/565561/56 "2010-12-28T19:43:52Z")
> [@bizerta](#): > > Why did they kill so many Jews during the Spanish Inquisition unless they converted to Christianity? Nitpick : the Inquisition didn’t kill any Jew refusing to convert, because it only had authority over christians. Being an actual Jew would have been a “get out of jail” card inquisition-wise. The victims of the inquisition were Jews already converted to christianism, or in fact in general their descendants, when they were suspected, rightly or wrongly, to actually secretely keep the Jewish faith, or possibly simply to keep Jewish customs. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2010, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people-who-want-to-convert-my-religion/565561/57 "2010-12-28T19:53:21Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > Nitpick : the Inquisition didn’t kill any Jew refusing to convert, because it only had authority over christians. Being an actual Jew would have been a “get out of jail” card inquisition-wise. This isn’t completely true. Jews were given a choice of converting or being expelled. They were not allowed to live as Jews within the jurisdiction of the Tribunal (same went for Muslims). ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2010, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people-who-want-to-convert-my-religion/565561/58 "2010-12-28T19:53:29Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Jesus said it, not me. Jesus said all you have to do is love your neighbor. Take it up with him. I’m questioning your definition of “love” which apparently begins and ends with saying “I love you”. If you love someone and they say “Do this because this is really, really important to me” and you blow it off without care, I’m personally going to question how much you actually love them and how much you just say you do. If your concept of salvation is “I’m going to heaven because I love Jesus just like it says but I won’t do what Jesus wants me to do and I don’t feel like trying to talk to my neighbors about Jesus but I love them both” then I guess that’s fine for you. I disagree and therefore disagree with your conclusion that evangelizing isn’t important or expected of Christians but I guess that’s where we stand. > [@](#): > > Therefore if God sends your loved ones to Hell, you would have to agree that they deserve it, because God can’t be wrong. Ok? Am I supposed to be all outraged and insist that my loved ones can’t possibly deserve it or something? If God sets the rules and God puts the rules out there and someone decides to ignore those rules and do whatever they want, I should say that’s good enough because I don’t want them to face consequences? I guess I’m not following. ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2010, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people-who-want-to-convert-my-religion/565561/59 "2010-12-28T20:04:18Z")
Too late to edit, but on the topic of loving God, Jesus says: _“‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’”_ I personally can’t reconcile ignoring the Great Commission (or any of Jesus’ teachings) with loving God “with all your heart and all your soul and all your mind”. Maybe other people can but that’s kind of a non-starter for me. You don’t claim to love someone completely and then ignore them when it’s inconvenient or uncomfortable. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2010, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people-who-want-to-convert-my-religion/565561/60 "2010-12-28T20:11:29Z")
> [@Jophiel](#): > > I’m questioning your definition of “love” which apparently begins and ends with saying “I love you”. I’m defining it as Jesus did in the Parable of the Sheep and the Goats. > [@](#): > > Ok? Am I supposed to be all outraged and insist that my loved ones can’t possibly deserve it or something? If God sets the rules and God puts the rules out there and someone decides to ignore those rules and do whatever they want, I should say that’s good enough because I don’t want them to face consequences? > > I guess I’m not following. I’m not saying your _supposed_ to do anything. I’m just asking how you feel about it. Do they deserve it or don’t they? Either they deserve it or God is wrong. Which is it? How about the Jews who died in the Holocaust? They deserve eternal torture too, right? Or else God is wrong. Does this sound like a loving God to you? By the way, where exactly _are_ these “rules” you speak of? As far as I know, God has never said a word to us. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people-who-want-to-convert-my-religion/565561.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people-who-want-to-convert-my-religion/565561.md?page=4)