# People who want to convert my religion **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 28, 2010, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people-who-want-to-convert-my-religion/565561 "2010-12-28T00:51:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2010, 1:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people-who-want-to-convert-my-religion/565561/101 "2010-12-30T13:53:26Z")
> [@Jophiel](#): > > If you love God (and Jesus), you won’t treat the Great Commission as a polite suggestion to accept or discard as you feel like doing. “Love ya, Jesus, but that stuff you commanded me to do in your name? Yeeeaahhh… kind of busy today and don’t really feel like it. Still think you’re swell though. Honest! Ok, see ya in Heaven!” > I think that’s a meaningless question. “Deserve” according to whose criteria? If God sends you to hell, one would presume that God thinks you deserve it. My opinion on whether or not you deserve it seems pretty moot. According to Genesis, the punishment for sin is death…nothing said about losing one’s soul, or eternal punishment! ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2010, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people-who-want-to-convert-my-religion/565561/102 "2010-12-30T14:02:05Z")
> [@Jophiel](#): > > I suppose if you want to take one section of the Gospels and discount the rest, that’s your choice. Seems kind of ridiculous to debate it though when you’re unwilling to look at anything else. Had Jesus only wanted that one thing paid attention to and everything else ignored though, he sure wasted a lot of breath. > I told you how I feel. The one who decides if they deserve it or not is God, not me. My personal opinion is moot. Why didn’t Jesus write a Book and see to it that all people would know the correct translations? He must have been smarter than that! He is quoted as saying many things that contradict each other. Like the rich young man who was said to have been told,when asked how to gain eternal life, was told to sell all he had then follow Jesus! ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2010, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people-who-want-to-convert-my-religion/565561/103 "2010-12-30T14:07:59Z")
> [@Jophiel](#): > > You agree that it’s pointless to debate with someone who is going to ignore the bulk of a text and focus on one thing out of context of the rest of the book? Well, that’s good. As long as we understand each other. > > The parables are stories that focus on a particular aspect of faith. They’re not intended to be the sole lesson any more than the Parable of the Wedding Guests means that you only have to humble yourself to be exalted before God or Jesus telling the rich man about a camel & a needle means that you only have to give away your wealth. > > If you’re unwilling to look at the entire text, a debate is pointless. I suspect you know this already but hope that if you can keep saying “No, only this!” then eventually I’ll give up and you can declare yourself the winner. Congratulations, you win then since this is just going in circles. > I’m waiting for you to get a handle on this “whole text” thing first. Get back to me when you do. This brings up the question of why Jesus was said to speak in parables, according to the NT He said he spoke in parables lest some (of the Jews) understand and convert! Doesn’t sound like Jesus was interested in everyone being saved. He also told the woman who was asking him for help, that he only came for the house of Israel! ---
**Author:** ![Cumberdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8c91f0/32.png) [@Cumberdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cumberdale)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2010, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people-who-want-to-convert-my-religion/565561/104 "2010-12-30T15:05:15Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > Do you imagine they don’t comprehend that trying to ‘save you’ would not only fail, but could break the friendship too? What would you have them do? In the real world, I’m glad they don’t. We do have interesting religious discussions occasionally, but we don’t try to convert each other. I’m just saying that if they truly believed I or anyone else was destined for eternal suffering, then it is their duty to IMO to help others avoid it. If someone approached me like in the Penn Jillete video above, I would at least respect that truly were living what they said they believed. I’d still think they were full of BS and hope they’d grow up some day. Now if they were aggressive, accusatory, spouting fire and brimstone nonsense or various Bible verses frequently, then that would end the friendship. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2010, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people-who-want-to-convert-my-religion/565561/105 "2010-12-30T15:22:12Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Jesus said there are only two commands and defines them as essentially equivalent. Galatians says there is only one command. So yes, you should follow all one of God’s commands. No. Jesus specifically said that all the other commands hung on those two commands. Likewise, Galatians says only that all the commands (again, plural) are summed up in one. Both of them assume the existence of other commandments. For them to be summed up as one, or for two of them to be the most important, there must be more than one or two. And, really, what you are saying is a tautology. Jesus says you must love God, and to love God, you must follow his commands. If his only command was to love God, that would be like a dictionary saying “angry: see mad” and “mad: see angry.” Is that really your learned opinion as a biblical scholar? That everyone was just writing meaningless drivel? Where’s the integrity of preserving the author’s intent? If those were all the commandments, then there would be no reason to write the rest of it. We’d just have a bunch of stories and a two line addendum telling us what we should do. No, the rest of the commandments are clarifications and specific implementations of the first two. Oh, and Monavis is showing us another reason why people proselytize: There are just people out there that just want to win arguments. Why else would s/he be nitpicking people’s explanations? Do you really think any Christian is stupid enough to not know that the Bible was written by men? And, after 2000 years, do you think you can bring up something that hasn’t been thought of before? Do you really think you’re fighting ignorance here? Oh, and Jesus _was reported to say_ (a part you hypocritically left out) to his disciples that, now that he was dead and risen, it was okay to explain the parables. If you were reading the book for comprehension, and not to play a gotcha game with Christians, you’d know that. And, yes, I know you’re going to jump on me for not covering the death thing, but it’s more complicated, and I’m late for bed. I’d offer a link, but for some reason I can’t paste. Stupid Firefox beta. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2010, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people-who-want-to-convert-my-religion/565561/106 "2010-12-30T17:27:13Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > No. Jesus specifically said that all the other commands hung on those two commands. Likewise, Galatians says only that all the commands (again, plural) are summed up in one. Both of them assume the existence of other commandments. For them to be summed up as one, or for two of them to be the most important, there must be more than one or two. Both of those are saying that all of God’s law just boils down to the Golden Rule. All the rest, as Rabbi Hillel said, is commentary. > [@](#): > > And, really, what you are saying is a tautology. Jesus says you must love God, and to love God, you must follow his commands. Jesus said that to love god, you have to love your neighbor. That is the only commandment. > [@](#): > > If his only command was to love God His only command is to love your neighbor. He said that loving your neighbor is how you love God. > [@](#): > > that would be like a dictionary saying “angry: see mad” and “mad: see angry.” Is that really your learned opinion as a biblical scholar? That everyone was just writing meaningless drivel? Where’s the integrity of preserving the author’s intent? There are an abundance of authurial intenmts in the Bible, some of them quite at cross purposes, but in the words attributed to Jesus, he said there was only one real rule – love your neighbor. > [@](#): > > Oh, and Monavis is showing us another reason why people proselytize: There are just people out there that just want to win arguments. Why else would s/he be nitpicking people’s explanations? because the explanations don’t make sense or justify the harassment of religious proselytization. > [@](#): > > Do you really think any Christian is stupid enough to not know that the Bible was written by men? This can’t be a serious question. Have you ever met a fundy? I assure you that the world is full of Christians would would vehemently deny that the Bible had any human authorship. If you don’t know that, then that shows a lack of education on your part. I grew up around people who thought exactly that way. > [@](#): > > And, after 2000 years, do you think you can bring up something that hasn’t been thought of before? It’s been my experience that a lot of lay Christians are, in fact, completely unaware of a lot of the theological problems with their own religion, but even if they weren’t, you’d think that after 2000 years, at least one Christian would have been able to convincingly answer those problems by now. What does it tell you that they they still can’t? > [@](#): > > Do you really think you’re fighting ignorance here? Absolutely. ---
**Author:** ![BlinkingDuck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/eada6e/32.png) [@BlinkingDuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlinkingDuck)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2010, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people-who-want-to-convert-my-religion/565561/107 "2010-12-30T17:39:06Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > You could turn it around and ask why religious people don’t do _more_ to convert others. > > I have friends who are deeply religious. Sometimes I find it weird that they are so accepting of my atheism. In their view, I’m likely to end up _in hell_. Don’t they care? Note - I am no longer religious…but I used to be. It could be that they really don’t care…that you are not worth the bother. It could be that they really, truely do not believe their own religion. I think this is the heart of the manner for many…how else can you explain the neighbor that hits my wifes car then denies it to the insurance company? Doesn’t she know she broke commandments? Doesn’t she know that if she dies at this time she will spend eternity in hell from her mortal sin? Most likely, she believes she can be forgiven while at the same time causing damage to others that she could easily rectify…i.e. she is not a Catholic even though she says/believes she is. What is also possible is that your friends really do care. They are just waiting for the right moment to strike. If they are in your face continually you will not listen to them and become hardened to what they say…but if they wait…then God will provide an opportunity to strike his message home with you. They are waiting for that moment. ---
**Author:** ![dhkendall](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a9adbd/32.png) [@dhkendall](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dhkendall)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2010, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people-who-want-to-convert-my-religion/565561/108 "2010-12-30T18:02:12Z")
> [@Rune](#): > > Why do some people knickers get in such a monumental twist because a random Mormon guy approach them on the street or a Jehovah Witnesses chick ring their door bell or Harah Krishna dopeheads makes a general fool of themselves in the street? It’s not like it takes all of two seconds to say: not interested. Sure it would be a problem if Jehovah Witnesses were a major and dominant political force, but not really any chance of that before the apocalypse. It seems to me that it is the political aspiration of religious groups one should be vary of, not the individual person’s faith. This. I believe I mentioned, either in this thread or somewhere else, that I have a Book of Mormon on my shelf courtesy a door-to-door proselytizer. While I’m a Christian, and content with my Christianity, I also have a curious mind of the world about me (reason numero uno I’m a Doper) and I like to talk with those of other religions to know more about them (again, I can do that here so I’m a Doper), and hopefully they know more about my religion - yes Christianity is the dominant religion in the Western World, but there’s scads of misconceptions about it thanks to the vocal minority of Christians who are our public face. Usually they listen to me as I listen to them and we each learn something in the process. Or, they’re **Diogenes**. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2010, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people-who-want-to-convert-my-religion/565561/109 "2010-12-30T18:09:11Z")
What’s that supposed to mean? ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2010, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people-who-want-to-convert-my-religion/565561/110 "2010-12-30T19:47:28Z")
> [@BlinkingDuck](#): > > It could be that they really, truely do not believe their own religion. I think this is the heart of the manner for many…how else can you explain the neighbor that hits my wifes car then denies it to the insurance company? Doesn’t she know she broke commandments? Doesn’t she know that if she dies at this time she will spend eternity in hell from her mortal sin? Most likely, she believes she can be forgiven while at the same time causing damage to others that she could easily rectify…i.e. she is not a Catholic even though she says/believes she is. While I suspect that many church-goers doubt their faith, I wonder if a lot of the hypocracy you describe is because most people – whether religious or not – think they are the good guy. “I sometimes bend the rules because I have no choice, or for the greater good. I’m not like those jerks who lie and cheat _for no reason_”. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2010, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people-who-want-to-convert-my-religion/565561/111 "2010-12-30T20:08:07Z")
> [@Cumberdale](#): > > In the real world, I’m glad they don’t. We do have interesting religious discussions occasionally, but we don’t try to convert each other. > > I’m just saying that if they truly believed I or anyone else was destined for eternal suffering, then it is their duty to IMO to help others avoid it. It sounds like maybe they are doing exactly what they feel is most conducive to your eventual (possible or otherwise) conversion - that is, trying to remain your friend, whilst being examples of religious people who are not assholes. What I mean is, even if your conversion is their goal, it’s hard to see what they could be doing that would be more effective than what they are currently doing. ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2010, 12:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people-who-want-to-convert-my-religion/565561/112 "2010-12-31T12:12:14Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > No. Jesus specifically said that all the other commands hung on those two commands. Likewise, Galatians says only that all the commands (again, plural) are summed up in one. Both of them assume the existence of other commandments. For them to be summed up as one, or for two of them to be the most important, there must be more than one or two. > > And, really, what you are saying is a tautology. Jesus says you must love God, and to love God, you must follow his commands. If his only command was to love God, that would be like a dictionary saying “angry: see mad” and “mad: see angry.” Is that really your learned opinion as a biblical scholar? That everyone was just writing meaningless drivel? Where’s the integrity of preserving the author’s intent? > > If those were all the commandments, then there would be no reason to write the rest of it. We’d just have a bunch of stories and a two line addendum telling us what we should do. No, the rest of the commandments are clarifications and specific implementations of the first two. > > Oh, and Monavis is showing us another reason why people proselytize: There are just people out there that just want to win arguments. Why else would s/he be nitpicking people’s explanations? Do you really think any Christian is stupid enough to not know that the Bible was written by men? And, after 2000 years, do you think you can bring up something that hasn’t been thought of before? Do you really think you’re fighting ignorance here? > > Oh, and Jesus _was reported to say_ (a part you hypocritically left out) to his disciples that, now that he was dead and risen, it was okay to explain the parables. If you were reading the book for comprehension, and not to play a gotcha game with Christians, you’d know that. > > And, yes, I know you’re going to jump on me for not covering the death thing, but it’s more complicated, and I’m late for bed. I’d offer a link, but for some reason I can’t paste. Stupid Firefox beta. If people know the Bible was written by humans, called the word of God by humans, they they should know that God didn’t have any say in it, just people call it the word of God,or that God inspired it! In what quote did the Gospel writer say Jesus told them it was okay to explain the parables? Again no one can say in truth that Jesus said anything it is the work of the writers. It was after I read the book for Comprehension that I realized it wasn’t God’s word any more than the Koran or other religious teachings. ---
**Author:** ![BlinkingDuck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/eada6e/32.png) [@BlinkingDuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlinkingDuck)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2011, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people-who-want-to-convert-my-religion/565561/113 "2011-01-01T00:43:44Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > While I suspect that many church-goers doubt their faith, I wonder if a lot of the hypocracy you describe is because most people – whether religious or not – think they are the good guy. > “I sometimes bend the rules because I have no choice, or for the greater good. I’m not like those jerks who lie and cheat _for no reason_”. While I agree with you overall…I think there is another element with people like the neighbor. I think religion has gotten wussie over the past few years. The ‘fear of God’ is gone…they don’t believe that even though they committed several mortal sins that they could easily rectify that all they need to do is to pray to God and be forgiven. They don’t really believe they will go to hell (even though it is explicitely said in Catholic mythos) because ‘God loves them and he would never do that to me’ because (like you say above) ‘I am a good person at heart’. The Catholic religion I was brought up in was ‘you cannot fool God’. If you commit a mortal sin thinking you will just go to confession and get it wiped away then you are damned. That sin will not be washed away until you are genuinely contrite…and that means rectifying the damage you did as best you can. The religion I grew up in…God was someone to fear (though he llooovvveeeesss you) and angels were not something you necessarily would like to meet. This fear seems gone these days. ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2011, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people-who-want-to-convert-my-religion/565561/114 "2011-01-01T13:46:28Z")
> [@BlinkingDuck](#): > > While I agree with you overall…I think there is another element with people like the neighbor. > > I think religion has gotten wussie over the past few years. The ‘fear of God’ is gone…they don’t believe that even though they committed several mortal sins that they could easily rectify that all they need to do is to pray to God and be forgiven. They don’t really believe they will go to hell (even though it is explicitely said in Catholic mythos) because ‘God loves them and he would never do that to me’ because (like you say above) ‘I am a good person at heart’. > > The Catholic religion I was brought up in was ‘you cannot fool God’. If you commit a mortal sin thinking you will just go to confession and get it wiped away then you are damned. That sin will not be washed away until you are genuinely contrite…and that means rectifying the damage you did as best you can. > > The religion I grew up in…God was someone to fear (though he llooovvveeeesss you) and angels were not something you necessarily would like to meet. This fear seems gone these days. All religions,even the Catholic one, was started by humans, and they just claimed as all do, that they had the permission to speak for God! ---
**Author:** ![AClockworkMelon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aclockworkmelon/32/10803_2.png) [@AClockworkMelon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AClockworkMelon)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2011, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people-who-want-to-convert-my-religion/565561/115 "2011-01-01T14:56:52Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > I can go one better. It’s pointless to discuss Christianity with someone who is not actually interested in what I believe, but is actually trying to convert me into believing what they believe. If you really cared about what I believe, you wouldn’t argue with me. You would address me with an attitude of ignorance rather than an attitude of you knowing everything and getting all defensive when someone offers evidence that you are wrong. > > But, I’m a sucker, so I’ll do it anyway: loving God is not a debatable point in Christianity. It’s defined straight out. > > [ul][li]John 14:15: “If you love me [Jesus], you will obey what I [Jesus] command.”[/li][li] John 14:21: “[Jesus said] 'Whoever has my commands and obeys them, he is the one who loves me. He who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love him and show myself to him.”[/li][li]John 14:23: “Jesus replied, 'If anyone loves me, he will obey my teaching. My Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him.”[/li][li]John 15:10: “'Jesus said]'If you obey my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have obeyed my Father’s commands and remain in his love.”[/li][li]1 John 2:3: “We know that we have come to know him if we obey his [Jesus’] commands.”[/li][li]1 John 5:3 “This is love for God: to obey his commands. And his commands are not burdensome.”[/li][li]2 John 1:6 “And this is love: that we walk in obedience to his [God’s] commands. As you have heard from the beginning, his command is that you walk in love.”[/ul][/li] > So you cannot claim that loving God and/or Jesus does not include obeying all of His commands. > > All Scripture portions are from the New International Version (NIV). Used with permission. Nicely done, **BigT**. I think this clinches it. Jesus says “to get into Heaven you’ve gotta love me!” Elsewhere he repeatedly defines loving him as synonymous with obeying him. Whatever other definition for love you have is irrelevant because he tells you right there what expectations he has for your “love” of him. ---
**Author:** ![astroidea](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/58956e/32.png) [@astroidea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astroidea)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2011, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people-who-want-to-convert-my-religion/565561/116 "2011-01-01T16:57:18Z")
Religious people tend to be illogical and thus are prone to the bandwagon fallacy and thus they feel the need for other people to jump on their bandwagon to feel secure about their beliefs. :þ /Tongue-in-cheek ---
**Author:** ![dhkendall](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a9adbd/32.png) [@dhkendall](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dhkendall)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2011, 2:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people-who-want-to-convert-my-religion/565561/117 "2011-01-02T02:28:27Z")
> [@AClockworkMelon](#): > > Nicely done, **BigT**. I think this clinches it. > > Jesus says “to get into Heaven you’ve gotta love me!” Elsewhere he repeatedly defines loving him as synonymous with obeying him. Whatever other definition for love you have is irrelevant because he tells you right there what expectations he has for your “love” of him. Unfortunately, a lot of people even misinterpret the simple command “love me”. “Oh, if I love Jesus, I must hate the gays/dark people/Jews” etc. (Apologies if the words in the previous sentence offends, but it didn’t sound right without writing it in “redneckese”. Jesus is made after their image, not who He actually was. If God is outside and we are inside, Jesus is the portal through which we see God. We can either make Jesus a pane of glass, making Him a window through which we see God, or a mirror, through which we see ourselves rather than God. Too many choose the mirror route. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2011, 3:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people-who-want-to-convert-my-religion/565561/118 "2011-01-02T03:43:00Z")
> [@athelas](#): > > Yeah, I find proseletyzing to be perfectly rational for religions that feature spiritual rewards/punishments and free will. If you believe in Heaven and Hell, it’s pretty much your _duty_ to do what you can to get people from the latter to the former. You’d be a right bastard not to. Buddhists don’t believe in Hell – at least, not a Hell that is eternal [(though you can stay in Naraka for literally billions of years)](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naraka_%28Buddhism%29) and not a Hell that you go to for not being a Buddhist. Nevertheless, the [Bodhisattva’s Vow](http://www.katinkahesselink.net/tibet/bodhisatva.htm) includes the words, “However innumerable sentient beings are, I vow to save them.” “Save” meaning “guide to enlightenment through Buddhism,” presumably. Since “sentient beings” includes everything down to microorganisms, you can see what a major commitment that is! ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2011, 3:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people-who-want-to-convert-my-religion/565561/119 "2011-01-02T03:45:48Z")
> [@monavis](#): > > All religions,even the Catholic one, was started by humans, and they just claimed as all do, that they had the permission to speak for God! Nitpick: There is [one religion](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subgenius) that was not started by humans. (We only **look** like humans.) ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2011, 3:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people-who-want-to-convert-my-religion/565561/120 "2011-01-02T03:51:42Z")
> [@dhkendall](#): > > If God is outside and we are inside, Jesus is the portal through which we see God. 😕 In almost all (surviving) versions of Christianity, Jesus **is** God. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people-who-want-to-convert-my-religion/565561.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people-who-want-to-convert-my-religion/565561.md?page=7)