# People who would strangle other kids to save their own are fucked up **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 1, 2008, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people-who-would-strangle-other-kids-to-save-their-own-are-fucked-up/439760 "2008-03-01T19:11:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![Ale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f19dbf/32.png) [@Ale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ale)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2008, 10:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people-who-would-strangle-other-kids-to-save-their-own-are-fucked-up/439760/201 "2008-03-03T10:04:12Z")
[QUOTE=Bryan Ekers] Entity: But wait, pushing that button also causes everyone in Asia to die of Explosive Diarrhea Disease! _Now_ will you consider the moral aspects? Me: [pushing button] Yeah, Asia, whatever. [/QUOTE] Oh, you _had_ to do that, hadn´t you? I tell you, I´m not cleaning up this mess. If it´s worth anything, I´d like to point out that, in fact, there are plenty of people with a fucked up mind. I know we all are aware of crazies talking to a lamp post; but what I mean, and for me it was a moment of illumination when I realized it, (_thanks_ dad) is that many people around you, act normal, look normal, don´t talk to lamp post and yet, something, somewhere in their minds is fucked up. One day they´ll bewilder you with something so completely and utterly out of the left field that you´d just won´t be able to understand. A seemingly reasonable person can snap when certain combination of stimuli hit their brains, and then go back to normal. Sometimes I wonder if all of us have one or more bonkers buttons waiting to be pushed. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2008, 12:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people-who-would-strangle-other-kids-to-save-their-own-are-fucked-up/439760/202 "2008-03-03T12:47:09Z")
[QUOTE=Czarcasm] Yes, they should be arrested _using non-violent means whenever possible, which is why I am in favor of developing non-violent arrest methods_. [/QUOTE] And in cases where it is not possible, apparently nothing ought to be done. As pointed out, the only reason you can take this stance is because others recognize that such a position is untenable, and act on your behalf. And please spare us the nonsense about how you don’t ask others to use violence on your behalf. You’re paying taxes to support the police and military, and you aren’t out there non-violently protesting when police arrest murderers and rapists. As mentioned, you are perfectly willing to reap the benefits of realism while simultaneously enjoying the moral posturing of pacifism. Another win-win situation for hypocrisy. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Mellivora\_capensis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8797f3/32.png) [@Mellivora\_capensis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mellivora_capensis)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2008, 12:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people-who-would-strangle-other-kids-to-save-their-own-are-fucked-up/439760/203 "2008-03-03T12:47:37Z")
[QUOTE=Czarcasm] Yes, they should be arrested _using non-violent means whenever possible, which is why I am in favor of developing non-violent arrest methods_. … [/QUOTE] **Czarcasm** , whilst I admire the nobility behind the concept, I simply cannot see how one can arrest a sentient being without it containing an implied threat of violence, or without it being a violent act in and of itself. Arrest and incarceration, no matter how passive, is a form of violence. You are forcibly (by law, and on resistance, by physical force) confining and restricting, to a space of a mere few square meters, a sentient being. How can that not be a violent act? Incarceration, in my view, is an intensely violent act. It is simply acceptable to society as a means of justice because it can be wrought upon an individual without drawing blood. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2008, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people-who-would-strangle-other-kids-to-save-their-own-are-fucked-up/439760/204 "2008-03-03T19:13:54Z")
[QUOTE=Mellivora capensis] **Czarcasm** , whilst I admire the nobility behind the concept, I simply cannot see how one can arrest a sentient being without it containing an implied threat of violence, or without it being a violent act in and of itself. Arrest and incarceration, no matter how passive, is a form of violence. You are forcibly (by law, and on resistance, by physical force) confining and restricting, to a space of a mere few square meters, a sentient being. How can that not be a violent act? Incarceration, in my view, is an intensely violent act. It is simply acceptable to society as a means of justice because it can be wrought upon an individual without drawing blood. [/QUOTE] If you want to expand the definition of violence to include restriction of movement of another, that’s your problem. I define it as physically injuring another. Hitting, kicking, striking with an object, shooting, stabbing etc. I do not include incarceration, verbal assaults, intimidation etc. I am against physical violence. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2008, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people-who-would-strangle-other-kids-to-save-their-own-are-fucked-up/439760/205 "2008-03-03T19:26:26Z")
[QUOTE=Shodan] And in cases where it is not possible, apparently nothing ought to be done. As pointed out, the only reason you can take this stance is because others recognize that such a position is untenable, and act on your behalf. [/quote] I take this “stance” because I have to. > [@Shodan](#): > > And please spare us the nonsense about how you don’t ask others to use violence on your behalf. You’re paying taxes to support the police and military, and you aren’t out there non-violently protesting when police arrest murderers and rapists. What the _hell_ are you talking about? Nowhere did I say I go out protesting the arrests of murderers and rapists, and I’ve never said I was against incarceration itself. I would rather you argue against the points I’ve made, not some imagined points that exist only in your head. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2008, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people-who-would-strangle-other-kids-to-save-their-own-are-fucked-up/439760/206 "2008-03-03T19:31:14Z")
[QUOTE=Shodan] And in cases where it is not possible, **apparently nothing ought to be done.** As pointed out, the only reason you can take this stance is because others recognize that such a position is untenable, and act on your behalf. [/QUOTE] Emphasis mine. You’re a fucking moron. Where does he even imply that? Regards, Lobohan ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2008, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people-who-would-strangle-other-kids-to-save-their-own-are-fucked-up/439760/207 "2008-03-03T19:48:57Z")
[QUOTE=Mellivora capensis] **Czarcasm** , whilst I admire the nobility behind the concept, I simply cannot see how one can arrest a sentient being without it containing an implied threat of violence, or without it being a violent act in and of itself. Arrest and incarceration, no matter how passive, is a form of violence. You are forcibly (by law, and on resistance, by physical force) confining and restricting, to a space of a mere few square meters, a sentient being. How can that not be a violent act? Incarceration, in my view, is an intensely violent act. It is simply acceptable to society as a means of justice because it can be wrought upon an individual without drawing blood. [/QUOTE] I think (and I see **Czarcasm** does, too) that there’s a difference between _force_ and _violence_. To me, pinning someone’s arms is force, but not violence. Same with those glue-guns, if they could get them to work properly. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2008, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people-who-would-strangle-other-kids-to-save-their-own-are-fucked-up/439760/208 "2008-03-03T19:50:50Z")
[QUOTE=Czarcasm] If you want to expand the definition of violence to include restriction of movement of another, that’s your problem. I define it as physically injuring another. Hitting, kicking, striking with an object, shooting, stabbing etc. I do not include incarceration, verbal assaults, intimidation etc. I am against physical violence. [/QUOTE] If I was an amoral criminal, let alone a war criminal, and I knew I was up against a police force or army that was restricted to offering “verbal assaults, intimidation, etc.” in order to coerce me non-violently into “incarceration”, I would simply - and violently - refuse to go. I would expect the vast majority of amoral criminals would react the same way. Indeed, before long, they would probably be running the country, unless there were moral people who were _not_ pacifists around to stop them. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2008, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people-who-would-strangle-other-kids-to-save-their-own-are-fucked-up/439760/209 "2008-03-03T19:55:31Z")
[QUOTE=MrDibble] I think (and I see **Czarcasm** does, too) that there’s a difference between _force_ and _violence_. To me, pinning someone’s arms is force, but not violence. Same with those glue-guns, if they could get them to work properly. [/QUOTE] I too can see this difference. The problem is, particularly in a discussion concerning the punishment of war criminals, “force” must ultimately be backed up with a willingness to use violence on the part of _someone_ to be in any way effective. I do not fancy one’s chances going after the bad guys with “arm pinning”, harsh language, and non-functioning glue guns. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2008, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people-who-would-strangle-other-kids-to-save-their-own-are-fucked-up/439760/210 "2008-03-03T20:46:11Z")
[QUOTE=Malthus] I too can see this difference. The problem is, particularly in a discussion concerning the punishment of war criminals, “force” must ultimately be backed up with a willingness to use violence on the part of _someone_ to be in any way effective. I do not fancy one’s chances going after the bad guys with “arm pinning”, harsh language, and non-functioning glue guns. [/QUOTE] Maybe my solution wouldn’t be an instant success. It would take a lot of time and effort to convince people that violence is a temporary solution that leads to larger problems(though you would think the last 3000 years or so of recorded history would be a big enough clue). Of course, I have to ask-How is that “using violence to stop violence” solution to the world’s problems working out for y’all? ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2008, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people-who-would-strangle-other-kids-to-save-their-own-are-fucked-up/439760/211 "2008-03-03T21:12:32Z")
[QUOTE=Czarcasm] Maybe my solution wouldn’t be an instant success. It would take a lot of time and effort to convince people that violence is a temporary solution that leads to larger problems(though you would think the last 3000 years or so of recorded history would be a big enough clue). Of course, I have to ask-How is that “using violence to stop violence” solution to the world’s problems working out for y’all? [/QUOTE] I admire your faith, but I do not share it. I am generally not responsive to “solutions” to current pressing problems which would “only” require, through some unknown process, everyone on earth to agree with some philosophy or other. Should the day come when the lion lies down with the lamb, I would of course be happy; until that millenial day dawns, however, I would rather muddle on the best I can facing the rather imperfect reality that not everyone is of good will, and that we have to deal with this fact - sadly and unfortunately with things like armies and police; and these armed with rather more than harsh language. In my opinion, these people are doing a hard job on my behalf and I for one thank them for it. I think there is all the difference in the world between a person using violence to restrain the immoral, and violence used by the immoral. It isn’t a perfect situation, but in my opinion, it is the harder road - and ultimately the more moral one - to deal with reality and the facts as they are, including difficult moral decisions concerning war and peace, violence and punishment, then to merely wish for some unlikely perfection. ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2008, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people-who-would-strangle-other-kids-to-save-their-own-are-fucked-up/439760/212 "2008-03-03T21:25:37Z")
[QUOTE=Czarcasm] I take this “stance” because I have to. What the _hell_ are you talking about? Nowhere did I say I go out protesting the arrests of murderers and rapists, and I’ve never said I was against incarceration itself. I would rather you argue against the points I’ve made, not some imagined points that exist only in your head. [/QUOTE] Disclaimer: I am most often on the opposing side of **Shodan** but I believe you’re misunderstanding his point. He’s saying (I think) that you have the luxery of your position of non violence, because others act (sometimes violently) in your behalf and at your behest, since you do pay taxes that support the police, the armed forces etc, and are not out there protesting every arrest and conviction. THe police, corrections departments etc have the resposability to act to protect ‘society’ as a whole from those who may cause it harm, and they sometimes will act in a violent manner. And I agree that it’s impossible to be in favor of incarceration (when justified) without accepting that there may be some violent encounters inherant in that incarceration. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2008, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people-who-would-strangle-other-kids-to-save-their-own-are-fucked-up/439760/213 "2008-03-03T21:39:39Z")
“Using violence to restrain the immoral” certainly sounds good, but is that why we really go to war? Is that why _any_ country really goes to war? Taking my approach, meeting war with peace will at first mean that one side will instantly lose the war. One side wins, one side loses, the world spins on. Alternate and current approach? War is met with war, war is prolonged, many more die, the more powerful force eventually wins, and the losing side has learned a valuable lesson-might makes right, and next time they’ll win the war by fighting harder and better. The next war is bigger and “better”, more are dead and injured, and the same lesson is learned-might makes right. Rinse and repeat. War is hardly ever “good against evil”-just ask the soldiers and populace of both sides. ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2008, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people-who-would-strangle-other-kids-to-save-their-own-are-fucked-up/439760/214 "2008-03-03T21:54:12Z")
Doesnt’ address the point wrt incarceration. If you agree that society has the right/responsability/duty/obligation to protect itself and it’s citizens against the actions of those few (violent) criminals, how does one accomplish that w/o at least a tacit acceptance that some violence will happen, and often by those who are protecting society? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2008, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people-who-would-strangle-other-kids-to-save-their-own-are-fucked-up/439760/215 "2008-03-03T22:03:37Z")
[QUOTE=wring] Doesnt’ address the point wrt incarceration. If you agree that society has the right/responsability/duty/obligation to protect itself and it’s citizens against the actions of those few (violent) criminals, how does one accomplish that w/o at least a tacit acceptance that some violence will happen, and often by those who are protecting society? [/QUOTE] By _seriously_ searching out non-violent means of capture and restraint. By spending more money on crime prevention, social services, and mental health than on weapons of war and the prison system. ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2008, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people-who-would-strangle-other-kids-to-save-their-own-are-fucked-up/439760/216 "2008-03-03T22:22:50Z")
[QUOTE=Czarcasm] By _seriously_ searching out non-violent means of capture and restraint. By spending more money on crime prevention, social services, and mental health than on weapons of war and the prison system. [/QUOTE] probably would reduce, but not prevent some acts of violence by those we’ve hired to protect us. ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2008, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people-who-would-strangle-other-kids-to-save-their-own-are-fucked-up/439760/217 "2008-03-03T22:28:12Z")
ya know what, though? this isn’t even my argument, so I’ll let **Shodan** fight his own battle. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2008, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people-who-would-strangle-other-kids-to-save-their-own-are-fucked-up/439760/218 "2008-03-03T22:32:55Z")
[QUOTE=wring] probably would reduce, but not prevent some acts of violence by those we’ve hired to protect us. [/QUOTE] Is reducing better than increasing? I’m just saying that there is a world of difference between “I wish that this violence would stop escalating” and “No matter what happens, the escalation stops with me.” If both sides’ position is that they will quit fighting if the other side quits first, escalation is the only possible outcome. ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2008, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people-who-would-strangle-other-kids-to-save-their-own-are-fucked-up/439760/219 "2008-03-03T22:39:12Z")
see post 217 ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2008, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people-who-would-strangle-other-kids-to-save-their-own-are-fucked-up/439760/220 "2008-03-03T22:40:20Z")
[QUOTE=Czarcasm] “Using violence to restrain the immoral” certainly sounds good, but is that why we really go to war? Is that why _any_ country really goes to war? Taking my approach, meeting war with peace will at first mean that one side will instantly lose the war. One side wins, one side loses, the world spins on. Alternate and current approach? War is met with war, war is prolonged, many more die, the more powerful force eventually wins, and the losing side has learned a valuable lesson-might makes right, and next time they’ll win the war by fighting harder and better. The next war is bigger and “better”, more are dead and injured, and the same lesson is learned-might makes right. Rinse and repeat. War is hardly ever “good against evil”-just ask the soldiers and populace of both sides. [/QUOTE] I dunno, you are the one who desired to incarcerate war criminals. Now you wish to “meet war with peace”. Seems to me that these desires are incompatible - meeting war criminals with peace sounds more like a plan to be _ruled_ by war criminals, than one to incarcerate them, on the theory that somehow by giving in to the violent that the violent will learn that violence does not pay, and so give it up as a technique. I do not believe that, generally, one side in a conflict has a monopoly on truth and justice; I do however believe that there are “just” and “unjust” conflicts, and that a person of goodwill can tell the two apart - that violence used to repell aggression isn’t the exact equivalent of one to commit aggression. I do not, in short, agree that it is all subjective and that any side using violence is equally bad. I could wish that it were otherwise, and that there are no bad people in this world - only incompatible desires - and that with goodwill and understanding, all conflicts could be solved without resort to force; but it is not so. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people-who-would-strangle-other-kids-to-save-their-own-are-fucked-up/439760.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people-who-would-strangle-other-kids-to-save-their-own-are-fucked-up/439760.md?page=12)