# People **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [September 7, 2016, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people/765296 "2016-09-07T19:43:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![snfaulkner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snfaulkner/32/433_2.png) [@snfaulkner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/snfaulkner)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2016, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people/765296/141 "2016-09-13T21:53:24Z")
Waaaaa! I was nice to someone once and they weren’t nice back! Now I’ll never trust anyone ever again! And I’m going online to tell everyone about how they all suck! ---
**Author:** ![Machinaforce](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/aeb1de/32.png) [@Machinaforce](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machinaforce)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2016, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people/765296/142 "2016-09-13T22:10:27Z")
> [@snfaulkner](#): > > Waaaaa! I was nice to someone once and they weren’t nice back! Now I’ll never trust anyone ever again! And I’m going online to tell everyone about how they all suck! Nothing that dramatic, but being nice isn’t a guarantee that people will return the favor. It’s just a hope. You hope they will do the same even though they are under no obligation to do so. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2016, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people/765296/143 "2016-09-13T22:12:25Z")
> [@snfaulkner](#): > > Waaaaa! I was nice to someone once and they weren’t nice back! Now I’ll never trust anyone ever again! And I’m going online to tell everyone about how they all suck! And I expect them to care enough to have a meaningful discussion with me after I’ve told them they mean nothing to me! ---
**Author:** ![Machinaforce](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/aeb1de/32.png) [@Machinaforce](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machinaforce)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2016, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people/765296/144 "2016-09-13T22:39:32Z")
> [@Telemark](#): > > And I expect them to care enough to have a meaningful discussion with me after I’ve told them they mean nothing to me! Why does it matter if they mean anything to you? Just another example of human weakness. ---
**Author:** ![Fuji](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a9a28c/32.png) [@Fuji](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fuji)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2016, 2:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people/765296/145 "2016-09-14T02:08:25Z")
> [@Machinaforce](#): > > Also the fact about humans being social animals isn’t entirely correct. Yes, it is, as well-attested by 5,000 years of history and eons of biology. > [@](#): > > Such behavior is learned not innate. Only for those crippled by an absence of empathy, i.e. the sociopath. > [@](#): > > If we were a social animals then such things would be instinctual. They are, for healthy humans. Only the sociopath lacks this instinct. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2016, 2:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people/765296/146 "2016-09-14T02:53:23Z")
> [@Machinaforce](#): > > Well considering that I saw no reason to feel empathy I concluded that it was useless to have. But it’s not merely a matter of choosing to be empathetic. Most of us are just wired like that, due to being a social species. And if we try to ignore such feelings, and behave more coldly, that can make us feel guilty and regretful down the line. Now, I’m sure you could roll your eyes at this point and ask why we should give in to our feelings and not just behave rationally? But if we’re going down that road, why do anything? Why do anything that makes you feel happy, or satisfied, or like you’ve accomplished something, if we’re jettisoning feelings and saying everything must be rationalized purely logically? But in my case I don’t just behave empathetically because I’m wired like that. I’m also invested in society. I care more about the lofty goals of society in general than minutia in **Mijin** ’s life. By helping others, both materially and with advice and information, and by never taking more than I’m owed, I’m doing my little bit for progress. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2016, 4:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people/765296/147 "2016-09-14T04:19:28Z")
> [@Machinaforce](#): > > . . . Being nice to others doesn’t mean they will be nice to you. . . . The race is not always to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, but that’s the way to bet. ---
**Author:** ![Machinaforce](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/aeb1de/32.png) [@Machinaforce](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machinaforce)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2016, 4:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people/765296/148 "2016-09-14T04:38:45Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > The race is not always to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, but that’s the way to bet. Such an analogy is incorrect actually. ---
**Author:** ![Machinaforce](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/aeb1de/32.png) [@Machinaforce](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machinaforce)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2016, 4:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people/765296/149 "2016-09-14T04:40:04Z")
> [@Fuji](#): > > Yes, it is, as well-attested by 5,000 years of history and eons of biology. > > Only for those crippled by an absence of empathy, i.e. the sociopath. > > They are, for healthy humans. Only the sociopath lacks this instinct. Actually you are wrong. [https://www.edge.org/response-detail/25395](https://www.edge.org/response-detail/25395) ---
**Author:** ![Machinaforce](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/aeb1de/32.png) [@Machinaforce](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machinaforce)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2016, 4:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people/765296/150 "2016-09-14T04:44:36Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > But it’s not merely a matter of choosing to be empathetic. Most of us are just wired like that, due to being a social species. And if we try to ignore such feelings, and behave more coldly, that can make us feel guilty and regretful down the line. > > Now, I’m sure you could roll your eyes at this point and ask why we should give in to our feelings and not just behave rationally? > But if we’re going down that road, why do anything? > Why do anything that makes you feel happy, or satisfied, or like you’ve accomplished something, if we’re jettisoning feelings and saying everything must be rationalized purely logically? > > But in my case I don’t just behave empathetically because I’m wired like that. I’m also invested in society. I care more about the lofty goals of society in general than minutia in **Mijin** ’s life. By helping others, both materially and with advice and information, and by never taking more than I’m owed, I’m doing my little bit for progress. “Progress” is an arbitrary terms that can’t be defined in any meaningful way. Humans being a social species isn’t entirely correct. There are limits to the social aspect and such things have to be triggered before they can do anything. Your second paragraph is irrelevant to the main point. Besides humans need to be more logical because it’s their illogical was that ruin them. Empathy being one such thing. I wouldn’t say it’s “wired” because I changed it just by concluding it wasn’t necessary. That there was no reason to feel such things for people so I go over it. ---
**Author:** ![Machinaforce](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/aeb1de/32.png) [@Machinaforce](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machinaforce)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2016, 4:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people/765296/151 "2016-09-14T04:46:58Z")
I can even argue that empathy is a lie, as you can never understand how someone else is feeling. You may think you do, but that is nothing more than hubris. ---
**Author:** ![Kamino\_Neko](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kamino_neko/32/34_2.png) [@Kamino\_Neko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kamino_Neko)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2016, 5:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people/765296/152 "2016-09-14T05:00:36Z")
The delusion that everyone is like them is another common trait of psychopaths. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2016, 5:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people/765296/153 "2016-09-14T05:19:57Z")
> [@Machinaforce](#): > > Humans being a social species isn’t entirely correct. There are limits to the social aspect and such things have to be triggered before they can do anything. Saying it’s not entirely correct is a tacit agreement that we are, to some degree, social. That’s why we evolved empathy. That was my point. > [@](#): > > Your second paragraph is irrelevant to the main point. Besides humans need to be more logical because it’s their illogical was that ruin them. Empathy being one such thing. I wouldn’t say it’s “wired” because I changed it just by concluding it wasn’t necessary. That there was no reason to feel such things for people so I go over it. No, you miss my point. There is no logical reason why I should want to eat tasty food, or kiss a pretty girl, or achieve success in business, rather than just lying in a ditch and dying. It all comes down to feelings ultimately. I find it odd when people single out a feeling like empathy as illogical. It’s a staple of sci-fi that there are hyper logical species that think all feelings are nonsense. But it never really makes sense; such species typically show (scientific) curiosity, say. Otherwise why are they even bothering to explore space? ---
**Author:** ![Machinaforce](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/aeb1de/32.png) [@Machinaforce](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machinaforce)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2016, 5:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people/765296/154 "2016-09-14T05:23:26Z")
> [@Kamino\_Neko](#): > > The delusion that everyone is like them is another common trait of psychopaths. No it isn’t ---
**Author:** ![Machinaforce](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/aeb1de/32.png) [@Machinaforce](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machinaforce)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2016, 5:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people/765296/155 "2016-09-14T05:31:36Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > Saying it’s not entirely correct is a tacit agreement that we are, to some degree, social. That’s why we evolved empathy. That was my point. > > No, you miss my point. > There is no logical reason why I should want to eat tasty food, or kiss a pretty girl, or achieve success in business, rather than just lying in a ditch and dying. > It all comes down to feelings ultimately. I find it odd when people single out a feeling like empathy as illogical. > > It’s a staple of sci-fi that there are hyper logical species that think all feelings are nonsense. But it never really makes sense; such species typically show (scientific) curiosity, say. Otherwise why are they even bothering to explore space? No, it’s more like the effect on a drug addict. The mind seeks out experiences that are pleasurable and wants to minimize pain. If that is ones goal then it is logical. As for lying in a ditch, that’s the survival instinct. It takes a great amount of duress to override it. Desire isn’t a feeling. And empathy is most certainly illogical and useless in a universe that is ultimately amoral. You also mistake the goals of hyper logics beings as curious. It’s likely their goal is one motivated by a logic incomprehensible to emotional beings like humans. But that’s beside the point. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2016, 6:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people/765296/156 "2016-09-14T06:16:13Z")
> [@Machinaforce](#): > > Well considering that I saw no reason to feel empathy I concluded that it was useless to have. I guess that counts as logic - my hopes weren’t high to begin with. OK, a perfectly logical argument based on an unsound premise will result in a perfectly wrong answer. ---
**Author:** ![ozaline](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/9fc29f/32.png) [@ozaline](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ozaline)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2016, 6:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people/765296/157 "2016-09-14T06:39:05Z")
> [@Chihuahua](#): > > And I forgot to mention… What do you think happens when your boss figures out an Indian can do your same job for half the price? Is he supposed to keep paying you because of all that poetry in your soul? Last I checked, the market for professional poets is pretty small, and the only thing that matters in this world is what people can get out of you. When the robots replace every truck, and cab driver because they are more cost efficient, safer and environmentally friendly than human drivers we will see a major shift in the economy… it may be a painful transition, but after it’s done there will be a lot more time for poetry. Indeed, that’s not the only job robots are gunning for… the idea that humans must be valued based on their utility will have to give way, because humans will become largely redundant in the work force. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2016, 7:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people/765296/158 "2016-09-14T07:10:55Z")
> [@Machinaforce](#): > > No, it’s more like the effect on a drug addict. The mind seeks out experiences that are pleasurable and wants to minimize pain. If that is ones goal then it is logical. Even supposing I agree completely with this kind of description, this still gives us no reason to single out empathy as illogical. Why do I want to succeed? Feels good. Why do I help people in need? Feels good. > [@](#): > > And empathy is most certainly illogical and useless in a universe that is ultimately amoral. What’s logical about trying to build a spaceship to explore a universe that doesn’t care what humans do? Everything becomes illogical when looked at in these terms. > [@](#): > > You also mistake the goals of hyper logics beings as curious. It’s likely their goal is one motivated by a logic incomprehensible to emotional beings like humans. But that’s beside the point. I’m saying that no sci-fi I’ve come across has really made sense of the motivation of such beings. Saying maybe their logic is incomprehensible to us is akin to saying “god behaves in mysterious ways” i.e. no explanation at all. We have no reason to suppose that behaving 100% logically with no instinctive motivation is something that makes sense and could happen. Why is doing stuff more logical, from first principles, than not doing stuff? But agree this is besides the point. ---
**Author:** ![Machinaforce](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/aeb1de/32.png) [@Machinaforce](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machinaforce)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2016, 7:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people/765296/159 "2016-09-14T07:50:39Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > Even supposing I agree completely with this kind of description, this still gives us no reason to single out empathy as illogical. > > Why do I want to succeed? Feels good. > Why do I help people in need? Feels good. > > What’s logical about trying to build a spaceship to explore a universe that doesn’t care what humans do? > > Everything becomes illogical when looked at in these terms. > > I’m saying that no sci-fi I’ve come across has really made sense of the motivation of such beings. Saying maybe their logic is incomprehensible to us is akin to saying “god behaves in mysterious ways” i.e. no explanation at all. We have no reason to suppose that behaving 100% logically with no instinctive motivation is something that makes sense and could happen. > > Why is doing stuff more logical, from first principles, than not doing stuff? > > But agree this is besides the point. It’s actually fine to single out empathy because that illusion is what we base the rest of our flawed assumptions on. Empathy is illogical because it’s the believe that you understand and feel what someone else is even though you have no evidence for that. You may think you understand, but unless you actually are the other person you don’t. So it’s illogical to think you can feel what someone else is feeling. Actually it is logical when it comes down to seeking a new place to live when this planet becomes ruined, again survival instinct. Perfectly logical. I’m sure there is a way to behave 100% logically but humans won’t find it because they are flawed emotional creatures. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2016, 8:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people/765296/160 "2016-09-14T08:32:36Z")
> [@Machinaforce](#): > > Empathy is illogical because it’s the believe that you understand and feel what someone else is even though you have no evidence for that. You may think you understand, but unless you actually are the other person you don’t. So it’s illogical to think you can feel what someone else is feeling. Yes. If someone is in tears and they tell me they got fired today, I can’t possibly empathize, because I am not them. Even if they’re telling me how bad it feels and asking for my support, it’s irrational to feel empathy as I am not that person and can’t know what they feel, right? BTW, for those very bad at reading social cues: that was sarcasm. > [@](#): > > Actually it is logical when it comes down to seeking a new place to live when this planet becomes ruined, again survival instinct. Perfectly logical. Wait, what? So the survival _instinct_ is logical, but empathy, another instinctive behaviour, is not? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people/765296.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people/765296.md?page=9)