# People **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [September 7, 2016, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people/765296 "2016-09-07T19:43:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![Machinaforce](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/aeb1de/32.png) [@Machinaforce](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machinaforce)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2016, 9:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people/765296/161 "2016-09-14T09:16:56Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > Yes. > If someone is in tears and they tell me they got fired today, I can’t possibly empathize, because I am not them. > Even if they’re telling me how bad it feels and asking for my support, it’s irrational to feel empathy as I am not that person and can’t know what they feel, right? > > BTW, for those very bad at reading social cues: that was sarcasm. > > Wait, what? > So the survival _instinct_ is logical, but empathy, another instinctive behaviour, is not? Didn’t you see the link, empathy isn’t instinct. It’s triggered if not learned. As for you apparent “sarcasm” that is the truth behind empathy. No matter what people say, they cannot understand how someone else feels because they aren’t that person. It’s the height of hubris to say otherwise. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2016, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people/765296/162 "2016-09-14T14:57:03Z")
> [@Machinaforce](#): > > Didn’t you see the link, empathy isn’t instinct. It’s triggered if not learned. Such an opinion would run contrary to the general consensus. Aside from empathy making sense for a social species, from an evolutionary point of view, plenty of data shows it to be instinctive particularly for those close to us. Have you heard of mirror neurons? > [@](#): > > As for you apparent “sarcasm” that is the truth behind empathy. No matter what people say, they cannot understand how someone else feels because they aren’t that person. It’s the height of hubris to say otherwise. It’s the height of hubris to think I know how someone feels \* when they’re telling me how they feel\* :dubious: Very surprised you bit that bullet ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2016, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people/765296/163 "2016-09-14T15:45:12Z")
> [@Machinaforce](#): > > I can even argue that empathy is a lie, as **you can never understand how someone else is feeling. You may think you do, but that is nothing more than hubris.** I’ll hazard a guess that someone who is screaming, with burns over 70% over their body, is in physical pain. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2016, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people/765296/164 "2016-09-14T16:15:56Z")
> [@Machinaforce](#): > > I can even argue that empathy is a lie, as you can never understand how someone else is feeling. You may think you do, but that is nothing more than hubris. Bullshit. You can reasonably argue that it includes a component of hubris (and I doubt anyone would quibble), but ‘nothing more than hubris’? Bullshit. Empathy persists as a concept because it has a somewhat reliable hit rate. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2016, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people/765296/165 "2016-09-14T18:52:29Z")
I think you’re ceding too much ground even saying that **Mangetout**. There’s nothing inherent about empathy that it must rely on guesswork. In most cases either a person is telling us how they feel, or showing in some obvious way such are screaming in pain or crying. Sent from my Mi-4c using Tapatalk ---
**Author:** ![Machinaforce](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/aeb1de/32.png) [@Machinaforce](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machinaforce)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2016, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people/765296/166 "2016-09-14T19:08:01Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > Bullshit. You can reasonably argue that it includes a component of hubris (and I doubt anyone would quibble), but ‘nothing more than hubris’? Bullshit. > > Empathy persists as a concept because it has a somewhat reliable hit rate. No, it’s just an unreliable leftover from human evolution, like armpit hair. ---
**Author:** ![Machinaforce](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/aeb1de/32.png) [@Machinaforce](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machinaforce)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2016, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people/765296/167 "2016-09-14T19:09:23Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > I think you’re ceding too much ground even saying that **Mangetout**. > > There’s nothing inherent about empathy that it must rely on guesswork. In most cases either a person is telling us how they feel, or showing in some obvious way such are screaming in pain or crying. > > Sent from my Mi-4c using Tapatalk Even thought such “obvious methods” you are still making a guess as to what they are Feeling. It’s the greatest delusion mankind has. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2016, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people/765296/168 "2016-09-14T19:11:35Z")
> [@Machinaforce](#): > > Why does it matter if they mean anything to you? Why do you care what I think? ---
**Author:** ![Machinaforce](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/aeb1de/32.png) [@Machinaforce](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machinaforce)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2016, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people/765296/169 "2016-09-14T19:36:35Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > Such an opinion would run contrary to the general consensus. Aside from empathy making sense for a social species, from an evolutionary point of view, plenty of data shows it to be instinctive particularly for those close to us. Have you heard of mirror neurons? > > It’s the height of hubris to think I know how someone feels \* when they’re telling me how they feel\* :dubious: > Very surprised you bit that bullet I think dont understand the actual consensus, and you still haven’t read the link. There is no data to show that it is instinctual. And in regards to mirror neurons, their function and purpose still remains unknown. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2016, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people/765296/170 "2016-09-14T20:34:16Z")
> [@Machinaforce](#): > > Such an analogy is incorrect actually. Well, explain yourself, then. Why is it wrong to invest wisely in empathy for others, on the grounds that they will likely display empathy for you? If all you’ve got is “Nuh-uh!” then you aren’t worth debating. ---
**Author:** ![Machinaforce](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/aeb1de/32.png) [@Machinaforce](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machinaforce)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2016, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people/765296/171 "2016-09-14T20:43:03Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > Well, explain yourself, then. Why is it wrong to invest wisely in empathy for others, on the grounds that they will likely display empathy for you? > > If all you’ve got is “Nuh-uh!” then you aren’t worth debating. Because the “investment” isn’t worth the return. Also as I have stated, empathy is a lie. You cannot understand someone else because you aren’t them. You don’t invest in a maybe with poor returns. Kindness to others is hope that they will return the favor and they often don’t. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2016, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people/765296/172 "2016-09-14T20:56:17Z")
> [@Machinaforce](#): > > Because the “investment” isn’t worth the return. Also as I have stated, empathy is a lie. You cannot understand someone else because you aren’t them. > > You don’t invest in a maybe with poor returns. Kindness to others is hope that they will return the favor and they often don’t. Your very existence at the moment is probably due to someone having “invested” in you without getting anything in return, at least not immediately. A parent is “investing” in a baby by feeding it, changing its diaper, etc., and in return they get a crying, fussing baby that soils its diapers, makes a stink, wakes up the parents by crying in the night, etc. Any “expectation of return” is ludicrous in that situation, yet countless parents around the world do just that - show unconditional love or “investment” in their kids. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2016, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people/765296/173 "2016-09-14T20:58:37Z")
> [@Machinaforce](#): > > Even thought such “obvious methods” you are still making a guess as to what they are Feeling. It’s the greatest delusion mankind has. A hospital patient, with burns over 70% of his body, screaming and writhing - hmmm, let’s guess, is he screaming because he’s in agony…or because the Mariners lost to the Orioles? How could one possibly guess? It’s an enigma! :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Machinaforce](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/aeb1de/32.png) [@Machinaforce](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machinaforce)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2016, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people/765296/174 "2016-09-14T21:02:13Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > A hospital patient, with burns over 70% of his body, screaming and writhing - hmmm, let’s guess, is he screaming because he’s in agony…or because the Mariners lost to the Orioles? How could one possibly guess? It’s an enigma! :rolleyes: Because it ultimately comes down to you guessing. Doesn’t matter how much proof you think you have, ultimately it’s a guess. ---
**Author:** ![Machinaforce](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/aeb1de/32.png) [@Machinaforce](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machinaforce)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2016, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people/765296/175 "2016-09-14T21:03:13Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > Your very existence at the moment is probably due to someone having “invested” in you without getting anything in return, at least not immediately. > > A parent is “investing” in a baby by feeding it, changing its diaper, etc., and in return they get a crying, fussing baby that soils its diapers, makes a stink, wakes up the parents by crying in the night, etc. Any “expectation of return” is ludicrous in that situation, yet countless parents around the world do just that - show unconditional love or “investment” in their kids. Thank you for proving my point. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2016, 6:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people/765296/176 "2016-09-15T06:13:09Z")
I must say that for someone who claims to strenuously avoid giving a shit about other humans, it’s awful nice of you to come and share your wisdom and insight with us. How is it that you could possibly know we’d want that though? I mean, it being impossible to know the minds of others. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2016, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people/765296/177 "2016-09-15T13:45:48Z")
If the OP said he felt regretful, for having started this thread, or embarrassed, for having suggested we can’t know how people feel even when they’re telling us how they’re feeling …I would empathize, is all I’m saying. ---
**Author:** ![Machinaforce](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/aeb1de/32.png) [@Machinaforce](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machinaforce)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2016, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people/765296/178 "2016-09-15T19:10:27Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > If the OP said he felt regretful, for having started this thread, or embarrassed, for having suggested we can’t know how people feel even when they’re telling us how they’re feeling …I would empathize, is all I’m saying. Even then telling you isn’t proof enough. People lie ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2016, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people/765296/179 "2016-09-16T01:02:19Z")
> [@Machinaforce](#): > > Even then telling you isn’t proof enough. People lie Firstly you haven’t given any reason why that would make it \* irrational \*. People can lie in all kinds of situation, in business, relationships etc. Are all interactions with other humans irrational, by your logic, due to a nonzero possibility of deception? Secondly as pointed out there are situations where the chance of someone lying is effectively zero: eg looking after a burns victim. You haven’t commented on this at all. Finally you’ve been using the term “hubris” several times. But this is a very strange word choice here. It’s hubris to take at face value what someone is said to me? ---
**Author:** ![Machinaforce](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/aeb1de/32.png) [@Machinaforce](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machinaforce)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2016, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people/765296/180 "2016-09-16T01:35:58Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > Firstly you haven’t given any reason why that would make it \* irrational \*. People can lie in all kinds of situation, in business, relationships etc. > Are all interactions with other humans irrational, by your logic, due to a nonzero possibility of deception? > > Secondly as pointed out there are situations where the chance of someone lying is effectively zero: eg looking after a burns victim. You haven’t commented on this at all. > > Finally you’ve been using the term “hubris” several times. But this is a very strange word choice here. It’s hubris to take at face value what someone is said to me? I have already stated why such things are irrational. Every human conversation is based on the belief that they are telling you the truth. You cannot know for certain if they aren’t lying, to say otherwise is illogical. There is no situation where there is a nonzero chance of lying. Lastly yes, it is hubris to take anything people say at face value. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people/765296.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/people/765296.md?page=10)