# Percentage of Str8 vs. Gay Pedophiles discussion **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 29, 2014, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/percentage-of-str8-vs-gay-pedophiles-discussion/680061 "2014-01-29T19:47:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Beelzebubba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ed8c4c/32.png) [@Beelzebubba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beelzebubba)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2014, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/percentage-of-str8-vs-gay-pedophiles-discussion/680061/41 "2014-01-31T18:00:40Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > This is about incarceration rates, not raw numbers. And I’m not sure you’re actually responding to what **Czarcasm** and **lance strongarm** were talking about. > > Again, they don’t. > > The people who want to discuss the original topic with you might care since it’s hard to stick to a subject when the discussion goes over the place, but: you’re spouting a bunch of Reagan-era Welfare Queen stereotypes that don’t have much to do with how the welfare system works today, although I’m not sure it was ever anything close to truthful. I apologize for veering off topic, but staying on subject is always a struggle for me. I have ADD (Adult ADD, actually) and my mind is constantly all over the place. I’ll try to take a moment or two before pressing Submit to review my postings to make sure they are on topic…(not I said ‘try’, no promises)! =) I’ve seen what the welfare lifestyle can do with my own eyes. I’ve lived in the Atlanta area for all of my 39 years. I’m sorry if my opinion offends, but I hope you and anyone who reads it can infer that I don’t think black people are inferior to any other race in terms of intelligence. I also believe that we (society as a whole) are missing out on the amazing contributions that many of these black men in prison might otherwise be making! I also admit that racial profiling and racist law enforcement officials are part of the disparity. One in three black men will spend time in prison at some point in their lives according to the Bureau of Justice Statistics. Unlike pedophiles, I believe this is something we can fix… BTW, my attempt to stay on topic doens’t apply to this posting…it starts NOW…if I wish to discuss anything else, I’ll start a new topic. Thanks! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2014, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/percentage-of-str8-vs-gay-pedophiles-discussion/680061/42 "2014-01-31T18:06:16Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Again, they don’t. I think the stats show that blacks are arrested (which is not the same as committing a crime, of course) at a greater proportion than whites, if not specifically for shoplifting. That’s why I brought this up - sometimes the stats are actually true. Or sometimes there is conflicting information, and a big debate ensues. That’s why I think the best thing to say is “it doesn’t matter anyway.” ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2014, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/percentage-of-str8-vs-gay-pedophiles-discussion/680061/43 "2014-01-31T18:12:08Z")
> [@Beelzebubba](#): > > What if I had turned into one? As I mentioned in a previous posting, I was resolute that if I ever found myself sexually attracted to children, I fully intended to kill myself and even knew which gun I would use to do it. I allmost committed suicide as a teenager coming to terms with being homosexual. Sorry to hear that. Does that mean you just wanted to assure you’d never act on the impulse? Or shame? > [@](#): > > Would I feel more sympathetic toward a pedophile/molestor who had been abused as a child? Not only would I feel sympathetic, but I could actually empathize with them as a survivor of childhood sexual abuse. > > Would my smypathy or empathy change my feelings about how they should be punished? \*\* Not at all!\*\* Once the damage is done and switch is flipped that turns them into a pedophile, they must be removed from society regardless of any other factors. How does punishment, other than execution or life in prison, remove them from society? Couldn’t you just banish them, or castrate them? And would you do the same for others with a “switch” in their heads, like serial rapists (of adults) and murderers? What if they just admitted to being attracted to children but hadn’t acted on it? > [@](#): > > Even though chemical (or even physical) castration removes the urge and/or ability to have sex. It doesn’t remove the feelings or thought patterns and doesn’t guarantee that pedophile won’t continue to molest children. Can you show a case where a castrated offender molested someone though? > [@](#): > > The welfare and safety of the many (children) outweighs the liberty of one (the pedophile). Eliminating pedos from society is for the greater good. Sure, but you could say that for all kinds of criminals, right down to common burglars. Would you? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2014, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/percentage-of-str8-vs-gay-pedophiles-discussion/680061/44 "2014-01-31T18:12:58Z")
> [@Beelzebubba](#): > > I’m sorry if my opinion offends, but I hope you and anyone who reads it can infer that I don’t think black people are inferior to any other race in terms of intelligence. I didn’t say you think that. I said your post was laden with stereotypes, which it was. > [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > I think the stats show that blacks are arrested (which is not the same as committing a crime, of course) at a greater proportion than whites, if not specifically for shoplifting. And **Beelzebubba** missed the part about _proportions_, which is why I was trying to explain it. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2014, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/percentage-of-str8-vs-gay-pedophiles-discussion/680061/45 "2014-01-31T18:30:58Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > Can you show a case where a castrated offender molested someone though? They do; castration is not a silver bullet. While it’s not a huge area of study, there has been some research. Let’s see here…This is the first decent study I hit on. Not sure if it’s available for free: [The Impact of Surgical Castration on Sexual Recidivism Risk Among Sexually Violent Predatory Offenders](http://www.jaapl.org/content/33/1/16.full.pdf+html) In a nutshell: recidivism is low, but not nearly zero. ETA: I’m researching wildly different stuff at the moment, but can dig more deeply into the lit on castrations and recidivism later on if anyone wants. . ---
**Author:** ![Beelzebubba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ed8c4c/32.png) [@Beelzebubba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beelzebubba)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2014, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/percentage-of-str8-vs-gay-pedophiles-discussion/680061/46 "2014-01-31T18:41:52Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > Sorry to hear that. Does that mean you just wanted to assure you’d never act on the impulse? Or shame? That I’d never act on the impulse and out of disgust and shame. Honestly, my reasons were to prevent my own future emotional and psychological suffering more than anything. > [@](#): > > How does punishment, other than execution or life in prison, remove them from society? Couldn’t you just banish them, or castrate them? And would you do the same for others with a “switch” in their heads, like serial rapists (of adults) and murderers? Banish them to an island with serial rapists and serial killers, that would be far more cruel than execution by humane means. > [@](#): > > What if they just admitted to being attracted to children but hadn’t acted on it? I don’t know. I admit that my extreme beliefs about punishment would be impossible to implement fairly. I just wish there was a better way to protect children from sexual predators. > [@](#): > > Can you show a case where a castrated offender molested someone though? Do you mean physical castration? I’ll do some research and see what I can find. > [@](#): > > Sure, but you could say that for all kinds of criminals, right down to common burglars. Would you? Pedophiles damage children in ways that will affect them for the rest of their lives. That’s quite different than a burglar. ---
**Author:** ![Beelzebubba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ed8c4c/32.png) [@Beelzebubba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beelzebubba)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2014, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/percentage-of-str8-vs-gay-pedophiles-discussion/680061/47 "2014-01-31T18:43:51Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > I didn’t say you think that. I said your post was laden with stereotypes, which it was. I agree, but not all stereotypes are incorrect. 😃 > [@](#): > > And **Beelzebubba** missed the part about _proportions_, which is why I was trying to explain it. Beelzebubba misses a lot of things… ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2014, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/percentage-of-str8-vs-gay-pedophiles-discussion/680061/48 "2014-01-31T19:20:47Z")
> [@Beelzebubba](#): > > Pedophiles damage children in ways that will affect them for the rest of their lives. That’s quite different than a burglar. Sure. But then so does murder, rape (as an adult victim), domestic abuse and other violent assault, wouldn’t you say? What should we do in those cases? ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2014, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/percentage-of-str8-vs-gay-pedophiles-discussion/680061/49 "2014-01-31T19:22:20Z")
> [@Beelzebubba](#): > > That I’d never act on the impulse and out of disgust and shame. Honestly, my reasons were to prevent my own future emotional and psychological suffering more than anything. I can’t even begin to speak for you or put myself in your shoes. But from my point of view, I find it sad that the victims keep ending up punishing themselves for this. It shouldn’t be that way. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2014, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/percentage-of-str8-vs-gay-pedophiles-discussion/680061/50 "2014-01-31T19:26:13Z")
> [@Beelzebubba](#): > > I agree, but not all stereotypes are incorrect. 😃 When I said your Rush impression didn’t have much to do with how the welfare system works today (if it ever did), I was saying you were incorrect. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2014, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/percentage-of-str8-vs-gay-pedophiles-discussion/680061/51 "2014-01-31T19:38:02Z")
A stereotype is a stereotype. It can’t be correct or incorrect. A stereotype might apply to more than 50% of the population it describes, but that wouldn’t make it correct. It would have to apply to every single person to be correct. Stereotypes are only fair or unfair. All of them are pretty much unfair though, for the same reason. You can’t judge all members of a group by some members of a group. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2014, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/percentage-of-str8-vs-gay-pedophiles-discussion/680061/52 "2014-01-31T19:42:21Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > A stereotype is a stereotype. It can’t be correct or incorrect. I think I like this. The point of a stereotype is that it’s lazy thinking and downplays the humanity of a bunch of people by treating them as an indistinguishable mass based on one trait, or a few. Anyway I am sure that lots and lots of women in the Atlanta area are telling **Beezlebubba** why they are having children and how they are working the welfare system. Why wouldn’t they share that information with him? 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Beelzebubba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ed8c4c/32.png) [@Beelzebubba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beelzebubba)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2014, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/percentage-of-str8-vs-gay-pedophiles-discussion/680061/53 "2014-01-31T19:58:33Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > Sure. But then so does murder, rape (as an adult victim), domestic abuse and other violent assault, wouldn’t you say? What should we do in those cases? I’m a big fan of an ‘eye for an eye’ so I belive murder should be punished by execution unless there are sufficient mitigating circumstances. Crimes against children are especially heinous because their psychological development into adultdhood is profoundly affected. They don’t understand what it being done to them and why. At least adult victims of violent crime (if they aren’t murdered) have the ability to understand what has happened to them and articulate their feelings to someone who can help them cope. Not that it makes their suffering any less difficult. Beyond that, I fold. I don’t know how to answer you about what to do with the rest. The fact that so much evil exists inside of some humans continues to push me from being Agnostic on to being a confirmed Atheist! ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2014, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/percentage-of-str8-vs-gay-pedophiles-discussion/680061/54 "2014-02-01T02:43:27Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Right. And I guess sometimes the Q can also mean “questioning” and the A can also mean “ally.” I’m still working on the meaning of Str8. I think it’s one of those vanity license plate abbreviations I can never figure out, but why would he use it in the thread title? Wait a second–is it supposed to be “straight?” Then why the hell didn’t he spell it out? This isn’t MPSIMS. Am I, as a heterosexual, supposed to be insulted by being reduced to four characters of leetspeak? ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2014, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/percentage-of-str8-vs-gay-pedophiles-discussion/680061/55 "2014-02-01T16:51:14Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > Again, yes, as long as you can do that. > > But I think it’s much more productive to take the higher moral ground. Teaching a mother that gays actually don’t molest kids more often sends the message that her fears would be valid if the opposite were true - that it’s legitimate to judge one by the actions of many. I say teach the mother, and the kid, that you should judge each scout leader, or any human being, on his own merits alone. I don’t know that humans think that way, [stereotyping](http://www.psychologytoday.com/articles/199805/where-bias-begins-the-truth-about-stereotypes) is deeply ingrained in humans. Instructing people to ignore this fundamental part of their minds is a Sisphyean ordeal. So, I argue that it’s more productive (in the sense of acheiving the desired end) to attack the untruth of untrue stereotypes. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2014, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/percentage-of-str8-vs-gay-pedophiles-discussion/680061/56 "2014-02-01T17:15:16Z")
> [@Beelzebubba](#): > > I’m a big fan of an ‘eye for an eye’ so I belive murder should be punished by execution unless there are sufficient mitigating circumstances. Crimes against children are especially heinous because their psychological development into adultdhood is profoundly affected. They don’t understand what it being done to them and why. At least adult victims of violent crime (if they aren’t murdered) have the ability to understand what has happened to them and articulate their feelings to someone who can help them cope. Not that it makes their suffering any less difficult. > > Beyond that, I fold. I don’t know how to answer you about what to do with the rest. The fact that so much evil exists inside of some humans continues to push me from being Agnostic on to being a confirmed Atheist! 1. As a victim of sexual abuse, you wouldn’t be doing me or society any favors with your “eye for an eye” stance(which you totally misunderstand, by the way. 2. Your view of atheists as people that have given up on humanity is rather disturbing. One of the things that make me an atheist is my belief that humans can pull through anything, without aid from ghost or god. That, and the disbelief in gods, of course. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2014, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/percentage-of-str8-vs-gay-pedophiles-discussion/680061/57 "2014-02-04T14:24:59Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > I don’t know that humans think that way, [stereotyping](http://www.psychologytoday.com/articles/199805/where-bias-begins-the-truth-about-stereotypes) is deeply ingrained in humans. Instructing people to ignore this fundamental part of their minds is a Sisphyean ordeal. So, I argue that it’s more productive (in the sense of acheiving the desired end) to attack the untruth of untrue stereotypes. I disagree completely. Of course we ask people to control their base impulses. That’s called civilization. Murder and stealing stuff is also “deeply ingrained in humans,” but we work on using rationality to control those impulses too. And, as I’ve repeatedly noted, some stereotypes are indeed “true,” meaning they describe a majority of the population. Is that a fair reason to act on the impulse? If we prove that 60% of blacks have criminal records (just a hypothetical), would that justify not trusting any black person? ---
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2014, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/percentage-of-str8-vs-gay-pedophiles-discussion/680061/58 "2014-02-04T14:47:28Z")
> [@dropzone](#): > > I’m still working on the meaning of Str8. I think it’s one of those vanity license plate abbreviations I can never figure out, but why would he use it in the thread title? “Str8” is used in same-sex message boards, and has been used for decades in personal ads. It’s most commonly used in describing oneself as “str8-acting” and I’m not the only person who hates it. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2014, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/percentage-of-str8-vs-gay-pedophiles-discussion/680061/59 "2014-02-04T14:48:20Z")
> [@panache45](#): > > “Str8” is used in same-sex message boards, and has been used for decades in personal ads. It’s most commonly used in describing oneself as “str8-acting” and I’m not the only person who hates it. Don’t you mean you “h8” it? ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2014, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/percentage-of-str8-vs-gay-pedophiles-discussion/680061/60 "2014-02-04T15:27:56Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > I disagree completely. > > Of course we ask people to control their base impulses. That’s called civilization. Murder and stealing stuff is also “deeply ingrained in humans,” but we work on using rationality to control those impulses too. They aren’t, actually. Human violence is strategic, it’s not innate (excepting a few mental illnesses). Stereotyping _is_ innate. [QUOTE=lance strongarm] And, as I’ve repeatedly noted, some stereotypes are indeed “true,” meaning they describe a majority of the population. Is that a fair reason to act on the impulse? If we prove that 60% of blacks have criminal records (just a hypothetical), would that justify not trusting any black person? [/QUOTE] No. I think we’re both trying to arrive at the same outcome: less discrimination. Is that fair to say? I think my approach to this particular form of prejudice (that gay men are child molestors) is more likely to work to reduce discrimination, since it’s not fighting against the innate urge to stereotype. Telling the mother of the boy scout that it doesn’t matter if most gay men molest children or not, because that doesn’t mean _this_ gay man will molest her son, is letting the perfect be the enemy of the good. Telling her (and proving) that gay men are no more likely to molest children than any other man may not be as ideologically pure, but I’d wager anything I own that it’d be more effective. Other prejudices demand their own approaches. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/percentage-of-str8-vs-gay-pedophiles-discussion/680061.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/percentage-of-str8-vs-gay-pedophiles-discussion/680061.md?page=4)