# Perfect Adam and Eve choose to sin -- How? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 1, 2003, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/perfect-adam-and-eve-choose-to-sin-how/158440 "2003-03-01T20:09:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![richardc](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/7cd45c/32.png) [@richardc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/richardc)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2003, 5:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/perfect-adam-and-eve-choose-to-sin-how/158440/21 "2003-03-02T05:52:43Z")
NaSultainne, The Bible does not say that Adam and Eve were created perfect. That’s right. But if Adam and Eve were not perfect, then they were created imperfect. If this is so, then it raises a question about who is really blameworthy for sin and its consequences – God or man? – And I’m curious (no pun intended)… presuming Adam and Eve were perfect, how could they disobey, which would be an imperfect thing to do? Perfection cannot perform an imperfect act. Thank you for the replies, Richard ---
**Author:** ![richardc](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/7cd45c/32.png) [@richardc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/richardc)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2003, 5:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/perfect-adam-and-eve-choose-to-sin-how/158440/22 "2003-03-02T05:53:46Z")
Dave 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![emarkp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3be4f8/32.png) [@emarkp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emarkp)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2003, 7:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/perfect-adam-and-eve-choose-to-sin-how/158440/23 "2003-03-02T07:47:58Z")
You might be interested in [this recent thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=163829). I appear to have killed it. ---
**Author:** ![TheeGrumpy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/779978/32.png) [@TheeGrumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TheeGrumpy)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2003, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/perfect-adam-and-eve-choose-to-sin-how/158440/24 "2003-03-02T18:45:34Z")
> [@](#): > > Originally posted by **JThunder** Where does Genesis 1 say that they were created “simultaneously”? Everyone is familiar with Genesis 1:27 “So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.” This took place on the sixth day - not before and not after - and was followed by a respite from creating. The creation of humanity is recapitulated in 2:7. By 2:18, we read, “the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him.” The next two verses show Adam naming every beast which God creates (instead of creating them before man, as in chapter 1). It’s possible that the naming of the beasts took place on a sixth day, such that Eve could be created before sundown. But that’s a lot of beasts we’re talking about. As I understand Jewish mythology, the “between the lines” story says that Adam and the unnamed female from chapter 1 had a falling out, leaving Adam alone by chapter 2. Some time after the Creation Week, God saw this state of affairs and created Eve, after attempting to partner Adam with giraffes, toucans, and water buffaloes. > [@](#): > > posted by **NuSultainne** …nowhere does the Bible say that they were perfect. The terms used to describe creation are “good” and “very good”. > [@](#): > > posted by **LordAshtar** Only God is perfect. He made man in His own image, but He didn’t run Himself through the Xerox machine. This would mean that any flaws or omissions in the human constitution (or qualities perceived as such), including the capacity for disobedience, must have been deliberately included (or omitted) by God. They are part of the intended design; if they are mistakes, they are the mistakes of a perfect creator. ---
**Author:** ![Rico](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rico/32/3582_2.png) [@Rico](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rico)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2003, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/perfect-adam-and-eve-choose-to-sin-how/158440/25 "2003-03-02T19:37:13Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by David Simmons \* > \*\*Well, at least Adam took it like a perfect husband - he blamed his wife. \*\* No, **cadolphin** told me that he took it like a perfect husband – he did what his wife told him to do. ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Ashtar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ea924/32.png) [@Lord\_Ashtar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Ashtar)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2003, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/perfect-adam-and-eve-choose-to-sin-how/158440/26 "2003-03-02T20:21:31Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by TheeGrumpy \* > \*\*This would mean that any flaws or omissions in the human constitution (or qualities perceived as such), including the capacity for disobedience, must have been deliberately included (or omitted) by God. They are part of the intended design; if they are mistakes, they are the mistakes of a perfect creator. \*\* The capacity for disobedience comes as a natural consequence of free will. Had God created man without the capacity for disobedience, then we wouldn’t have free will. It is my opinion that God wanted to be worshipped. But he didn’t just want mindless drones to do it. What good would that be? He wanted creatures who would choose to worship Him. So he created us. What Adam and Eve did was to be expected. ---
**Author:** ![richardc](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/7cd45c/32.png) [@richardc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/richardc)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2003, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/perfect-adam-and-eve-choose-to-sin-how/158440/27 "2003-03-02T20:39:28Z")
“The capacity for disobedience comes as a natural consequence of free will. Had God created man without the capacity for disobedience, then we wouldn’t have free will.” They had the capacity to disobey, but how is it possible that they disobeyed God? No matter how much “free will” Adam and Eve had, if they were created perfect, then they wouldn’t have disobeyed God. Perfect people can’t make mistakes. And if they were created imperfect, then who is to blame for Original Sin – God or man? ---
**Author:** ![serenitynow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9c0ed/32.png) [@serenitynow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/serenitynow)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2003, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/perfect-adam-and-eve-choose-to-sin-how/158440/28 "2003-03-03T02:06:19Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by richardc \* > \*\*“The capacity for disobedience comes as a natural consequence of free will. Had God created man without the capacity for disobedience, then we wouldn’t have free will.” > > They had the capacity to disobey, but how is it possible that they disobeyed God? No matter how much “free will” Adam and Eve had, if they were created perfect, then they wouldn’t have disobeyed God. Perfect people can’t make mistakes. And if they were created imperfect, then who is to blame for Original Sin – God or man? \*\* Adam and Ever were perfect in that they had the capacity to choose. They were not perfect in the sense that they would never make a wrong choice. Those are two different things. If they were created such that they would never make the wrong choice, then they did not truly have the capacity to choose. If they had been born without the capacity to choose they would have been imperfect. ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2003, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/perfect-adam-and-eve-choose-to-sin-how/158440/29 "2003-03-03T02:26:56Z")
> [@](#): > > They had the capacity to disobey, but how is it possible that they disobeyed God? No matter how much “free will” Adam and Eve had, if they were created perfect, then they wouldn’t have disobeyed God. Perfect people can’t make mistakes. And if they were created imperfect, then who is to blame for Original Sin – God or man? Its pretty opbvious they were not created perfect, so why are you arguing on this assumption? Proofs: 1. They lacked most all knowledge. 2. They chose to ignore the direct command - and the only thing they were told not to do, a very small thing. Twas not curiosity, but desire that drove them to eat. ---
**Author:** ![Terrifel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c68b51/32.png) [@Terrifel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terrifel)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2003, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/perfect-adam-and-eve-choose-to-sin-how/158440/30 "2003-03-03T02:31:42Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by emarkp \* > \*\*You might be interested in [this recent thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=163829). I appear to have killed it. \*\* No way dude, it was dead _before_. If anything, you resurrected it briefly. It’s not your fault that you’re such an impossible act to follow. ---
**Author:** ![JThunder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e95f7d/32.png) [@JThunder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JThunder)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2003, 3:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/perfect-adam-and-eve-choose-to-sin-how/158440/31 "2003-03-03T03:55:42Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by TheeGrumpy \* > \*\* > > > [@](#): > > > > Where does Genesis 1 say that they were created “simultaneously”? > > Everyone is familiar with Genesis 1:27 “So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.” This took place on the sixth day - not before and not after - and was followed by a respite from creating. > \*\* That doesn’t answer my question. Where does Genesis 1 say that they were created _ **simultaneously** _? > [@](#): > > \*\*The creation of humanity is recapitulated in 2:7. By 2:18, we read, “the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him.” \*\* Again I ask: Where does Genesis 1 say that Adam and Eve were created _simultaneously_, as you had claimed? > [@](#): > > \*\* > The next two verses show Adam naming every beast which God creates (instead of creating them before man, as in chapter 1). > > It’s possible that the naming of the beasts took place on a sixth day, such that Eve could be created before sundown. But that’s a lot of beasts we’re talking about.\*\* Possibly, but the text doesn’t say how specific they had to be about naming the various varieties, nor does it state how many different types of animals there were at the time. (Remember that the taxonomical heirarchy is a relatively recent invention, dating only to the time of Linneaus.) So while this passage is certainly problematic, the problems are due in part to unavailable and unspecified details. ---
**Author:** ![richardc](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/7cd45c/32.png) [@richardc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/richardc)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2003, 4:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/perfect-adam-and-eve-choose-to-sin-how/158440/32 "2003-03-03T04:03:21Z")
“Adam and Ever were perfect in that they had the capacity to choose. They were not perfect in the sense that they would never make a wrong choice. Those are two different things. If they were created such that they would never make the wrong choice, then they did not truly have the capacity to choose. If they had been born without the capacity to choose they would have been imperfect.” Wait. How does having the capacity to choose make a thing perfect? And how does _not_ having the capacity to choose make a thing _imperfect_? ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Ashtar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ea924/32.png) [@Lord\_Ashtar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Ashtar)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2003, 4:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/perfect-adam-and-eve-choose-to-sin-how/158440/33 "2003-03-03T04:15:59Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by richardc \* > \*\*And if they were created imperfect, then who is to blame for Original Sin – God or man? \*\* Who was it who committed the sin? ---
**Author:** ![serenitynow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9c0ed/32.png) [@serenitynow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/serenitynow)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2003, 4:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/perfect-adam-and-eve-choose-to-sin-how/158440/34 "2003-03-03T04:26:35Z")
> [@](#): > > \*\* > Wait. How does having the capacity to choose make a thing perfect? And how does _not_ having the capacity to choose make a thing _imperfect_? \*\* God chose to allow man to be a free moral agent. I have simply accepted your premise that Adam and Eve were created perfectly without debating it. Assuming this to be true, then if they were created in any other way, they would have been imperfect. That, however, is not the important point. The first issue that needs to be addressed is what is meant by perfection. Were Adam and Eve created perfect in the sense that there were no flaws in their design or were they created perfect in the sense of moral perfection – that they were incapable of sinning? While I can accept that they were created perfect meaning they had no flaws in design, I don’t see how one could conclude they had the right to choose, but that they did not have the ability to make a wrong choice. In other words, they had the right to choose, but not the ability to choose. Where a choice is predetermined, there is no real choice, is there? Or am I missing something? (It wouldn’t be the first time.) ---
**Author:** ![magog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/fbc32d/32.png) [@magog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magog)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2003, 4:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/perfect-adam-and-eve-choose-to-sin-how/158440/35 "2003-03-03T04:33:52Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Lord Ashtar \* > Who was it who committed the sin? Well, Adam and Eve. However, God created humans, including the ability to know right from wrong, common sense, etc. etc. Being omniscient, God knew that mankind would Fall, and would Fall because humans made the wrong choice. So, perhaps a related question: why did God create humans without the necessary tools to make the right choice? ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Ashtar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ea924/32.png) [@Lord\_Ashtar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Ashtar)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2003, 5:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/perfect-adam-and-eve-choose-to-sin-how/158440/36 "2003-03-03T05:08:50Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by magog \* > \*\*Well, Adam and Eve. However, God created humans, including the ability to know right from wrong, common sense, etc. etc. Being omniscient, God knew that mankind would Fall, and would Fall because humans made the wrong choice. So, perhaps a related question: why did God create humans without the necessary tools to make the right choice? \*\* I believe that God did give us the necessary tools to make the right choice - a conscience. Adam and Eve chose to ignore theirs. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2003, 6:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/perfect-adam-and-eve-choose-to-sin-how/158440/37 "2003-03-03T06:01:57Z")
How much time passed between the time they were told not to eat the fruit and when they finally bit into it? If _your_ children were told not to eat a cookie that was on the table, and they had no experience whatsoever with the consequences of disobeying your directives, what do you think the inevitable outcome would be, and would _your_ reaction be to banish them from the house? ---
**Author:** ![magog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/fbc32d/32.png) [@magog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magog)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2003, 6:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/perfect-adam-and-eve-choose-to-sin-how/158440/38 "2003-03-03T06:34:45Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Lord Ashtar \* > I believe that God did give us the necessary tools to make the right choice - a conscience. Adam and Eve chose to ignore theirs. But God knew that they would disobey Him, and mankind was depending on God to provide them with the facilities (common sense, etc.) to obey or disobey Him. It’s not like “I’m going to give them some ability to withstand Satan, and I hope it’s enough.” He knows. If I remember Milton right, _Paradise Lost_ was concerned about this question, and I don’t think he answered it. ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2003, 1:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/perfect-adam-and-eve-choose-to-sin-how/158440/39 "2003-03-03T13:33:02Z")
Another point: To me, Genesis implies that A&E were pretty intmate before the fall, but saw no flaw in their relations, not knowing good and evil, they could not sin except in that one thing. Certain posters might be thinking that religious people must be super-prudish from some modern sects, but no tribal peoples are this way. Fact is, 95% of all the people who ever lived did so in an environment where mommy and daddy slept together in the same room or seperated from the kids by a tent flap or a thin wall. The early Jews seem to have been the same. Privacy didn’t exist, really. ---
**Author:** ![I\_Brian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c89c15/32.png) [@I\_Brian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/I_Brian)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2003, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/perfect-adam-and-eve-choose-to-sin-how/158440/40 "2003-03-03T16:38:02Z")
Remember as well that according to Genesis, God \*did not[i/] punish Adam and Eve simply for disobeying, but because God feared that they would eat from the Tree of Life and therefore become Gods. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/perfect-adam-and-eve-choose-to-sin-how/158440.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/perfect-adam-and-eve-choose-to-sin-how/158440.md?page=3)