# Perfect initial design. **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [June 15, 2010, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/perfect-initial-design/543358 "2010-06-15T22:21:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2010, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/perfect-initial-design/543358/21 "2010-06-16T00:21:53Z")
> [@Telperion](#): > > It occurs to me that there are any number of foods and beverages that are still produced using recipes and methods that are centuries old, so that should probably count for something. Can you name a specific one? Cooks tend to make small changes all the time, and ingredients vary in availability and consistency. ---
**Author:** ![Telperion](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telperion/32/509_2.png) [@Telperion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telperion)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2010, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/perfect-initial-design/543358/22 "2010-06-16T00:25:58Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > Can you name a specific one? Cooks tend to make small changes all the time, and ingredients vary in availability and consistency. Well, of course no food is going to be exactly identical over many hundreds of years, but Wikipedia tells me the process used for making cheddar cheese dates from around 1170 so that seems like it would be a good contender. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2010, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/perfect-initial-design/543358/23 "2010-06-16T00:38:40Z")
> [@Telperion](#): > > Well, of course no food is going to be exactly identical over many hundreds of years, but Wikipedia tells me the process used for making cheddar cheese dates from around 1170 so that seems like it would be a good contender. In the category of processes you may be correct. The Wikipedia article on manufacturing Cheddar mentions a number of improvements in ingredients, but the steps in that process, and many other processes, may remain unchanged across the ages. ---
**Author:** ![Kent\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kent_clark/32/105_2.png) [@Kent\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kent_Clark)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2010, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/perfect-initial-design/543358/24 "2010-06-16T00:44:45Z")
Coca-Cola was bottled in generic, straight-side bottles starting in 1899. In 1916, the distinctive “contour” bottle was introduced, and has remained unchanged. ---
**Author:** ![RealityChuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/realitychuck/32/195_2.png) [@RealityChuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityChuck)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2010, 1:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/perfect-initial-design/543358/25 "2010-06-16T01:19:59Z")
Other than size, the staple has been unchanged since the 6th century B.C. The current staple in office use dates from 1877. ---
**Author:** ![ZipperJJ](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zipperjj/32/211_2.png) [@ZipperJJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZipperJJ)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2010, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/perfect-initial-design/543358/26 "2010-06-16T01:24:36Z")
> [@Claude\_Remains](#): > > Straight pins can be found with plastic ball ends or even “t” shaped ends. Aren’t those used for different purposes, tho? You wouldn’t put a pin like that into a garment where you’d want to hide the pins. You use the ones with a ball for visibility, and the ones with a T top for heavy fabrics. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2010, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/perfect-initial-design/543358/27 "2010-06-16T01:29:22Z")
> [@RealityChuck](#): > > Other than size, the staple has been unchanged since the 6th century B.C. The current staple in office use dates from 1877. I didn’t realize anyone was making stainless steel in the 6th century B.C. ---
**Author:** ![mittu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecd19e/32.png) [@mittu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mittu)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2010, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/perfect-initial-design/543358/28 "2010-06-16T01:38:15Z")
The design of the nail hasn’t changed as far as I can tell, some Roman nails dating from around 85 A.D. were found that certainly look like nails we would use today (tapering to a point with a flat head). The nails were made of iron which still seems to be an option today. ---
**Author:** ![Xema](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/9de053/32.png) [@Xema](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xema)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2010, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/perfect-initial-design/543358/29 "2010-06-16T01:54:32Z")
> [@mittu](#): > > … Roman nails dating from around 85 A.D. were found that certainly look like nails we would use today Yes, but modern nails are available in a huge variety, in many cases in shapes and sizes very specific to their task. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2010, 3:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/perfect-initial-design/543358/30 "2010-06-16T03:45:31Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > I didn’t realize anyone was making stainless steel in the 6th century B.C. Stainless steel staples are pretty exceptional today. Mind you I doubt that zinc plated mild steel staples were much used in the 6th century BC either. ---
**Author:** ![Hakuna\_Matata](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a88e4f/32.png) [@Hakuna\_Matata](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hakuna_Matata)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2010, 4:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/perfect-initial-design/543358/31 "2010-06-16T04:19:34Z")
The ice cube–shapes are different but has anyone invented a truly revolutionary way that is fundamentally different? Shoe Laces–other means to tie your shoes have been invented but the shoe lace is the same isn’t it? Zippers other then that…I got nothing ---
**Author:** ![EdwardLost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/bbe5ce/32.png) [@EdwardLost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EdwardLost)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2010, 4:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/perfect-initial-design/543358/32 "2010-06-16T04:35:04Z")
Violins haven’t changed much in centuries. Maybe not improved upon at all. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2010, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/perfect-initial-design/543358/33 "2010-06-16T04:41:34Z")
Everything mentioned in this thread has been subject to improvement, or at least change, over time. The wooden spoon might be close, but for all we know, the first model was made from a bone. I think the value of many items in their original form can be expressed in terms other than perfection. And look at more estoric aspects of the original design as well. When Igor Sikorsky developed the first controllable helicopter, he devised the single screw with tail rotor design that is still used in the vast majority of all helicopters today. There have been numerous improvements in helicopters over the past 70 years, but his simple design principle is as elegant today as it was then, and quite extraordinary at the time. ---
**Author:** ![mittu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecd19e/32.png) [@mittu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mittu)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2010, 5:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/perfect-initial-design/543358/34 "2010-06-16T05:46:00Z")
The wooden spoon is no more close than many other things mentioned in the thread that have been ruled out. If you rule things out because different types of the same idea exist today then the wooden spoon is well out of the window. Even if you only include wooden spoons and forget all others then handle is bound to be far thinner than early wooden spoons, be a different shape (a better shape) and be smoother. The wooden spoon has been modernised like everything else, including the helicopter (many many many times and ongoing to this day). ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2010, 6:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/perfect-initial-design/543358/35 "2010-06-16T06:07:47Z")
> [@mittu](#): > > The wooden spoon is no more close than many other things mentioned in the thread that have been ruled out. If you rule things out because different types of the same idea exist today then the wooden spoon is well out of the window. Even if you only include wooden spoons and forget all others then handle is bound to be far thinner than early wooden spoons, be a different shape (a better shape) and be smoother. The wooden spoon has been modernised like everything else, including the helicopter (many many many times and ongoing to this day). I didn’t intend to disagree with that. I pointed out the wooden spoon as something simple, and some modern forms may have great similarity to ancient ones. The helicopter has certainly gone through far more improvements in a few decades than the wooden spoon has over millenia, but is far more complex, consisting of many more parts, and subject to many more factors in it’s basic operation. Of course specifying a ‘wooden’ spoon is kind of cheat anyway. If we specify ‘wrought iron’ nails, then they would be pretty close to ancient forms as well. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2010, 6:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/perfect-initial-design/543358/36 "2010-06-16T06:25:40Z")
The original Volkswagen Beetle comes pretty close. It was in production for something like 30 years, and in that time the only change they made was to make the back window bigger. And don’t mention the new Beetle: That’s not a change on the original design, that’s a completely new product that just happens to have some superficial similarities. > [@](#): > > The ice cube–shapes are different but has anyone invented a truly revolutionary way that is fundamentally different? > > Shoe Laces–other means to tie your shoes have been invented but the shoe lace is the same isn’t it? > > Zippers > > other then that..I got nothing 1: Cylindrical ice pieces with a hole through the middle, shaved ice, ice of any shape made from frozen beverage rather than water so they don’t dilute the drink, ice cubes sealed in plastic so they don’t dilute any drink, and so on. 2: Round or flat laces, with or without aguilets, and made from a variety of materials. Also strung in various ways, if that’s what you’re counting. 3: Plastic or metal, and if plastic, the nicer kind with the individual teeth, or the cheap heliacal kind? And sealed at the bottom like pants flies, separable at the bottom like a coat, or with another pull at the bottom? ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2010, 6:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/perfect-initial-design/543358/37 "2010-06-16T06:36:10Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > The original Volkswagen Beetle comes pretty close. It was in production for something like 30 years, and in that time the only change they made was to make the back window bigger. And don’t mention the new Beetle: That’s not a change on the original design, that’s a completely new product that just happens to have some superficial similarities. Great call! The Super Beetle incorporated a new steering mechanism and curved windshield, among other changes, but considering the level of complexity, the Beetle is a standout. ---
**Author:** ![Blue\_Mood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ac91a4/32.png) [@Blue\_Mood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blue_Mood)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2010, 10:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/perfect-initial-design/543358/38 "2010-06-16T10:47:59Z")
The Rubik’s Cube. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2010, 10:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/perfect-initial-design/543358/39 "2010-06-16T10:54:16Z")
The Post-It note. It hasn’t really changed in the past 40 years since it was invented. > [@Chronos](#): > > And don’t mention the new Beetle: That’s not a change on the original design, that’s a completely new product that just happens to have some superficial similarities. Actually, the New Beetle isn’t even a new design - it’s just a Golf with some altered body work. ---
**Author:** ![panman\_1960](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/919ad9/32.png) [@panman\_1960](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panman_1960)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2010, 11:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/perfect-initial-design/543358/40 "2010-06-16T11:16:45Z")
a stick is still a stick. If you put a pointy end on it, it could be a number of things and then it is a spear/arrow/skewer… but just a stick? still a stick. Of course in my mind as a kid it was a rifle/raygun/bow/wand. But it was still a stick. Can you improve on a stick without making it something else? later, Tom. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/perfect-initial-design/543358.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/perfect-initial-design/543358.md?page=3)