# Permanent internal checkpoints, every \*@#! day. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 29, 2008, 4:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/permanent-internal-checkpoints-every-day/474885 "2008-11-29T04:32:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![bubba\_jr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e95f7d/32.png) [@bubba\_jr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bubba_jr)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2008, 4:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/permanent-internal-checkpoints-every-day/474885/1 "2008-11-29T04:32:40Z")
I want to scream and swear like a little girl because I’m so mad, (BBQ pit), I want factual answers (general questions), I want people’s opinions (IMHO), but in the end I think it boils down to a debate on the merits and legality of the internal border patrol checkpoint. I’ll try and phrase my points and questions in that direction. I was never on the debate team but I do like to argue (friendly arguments of course). Back ground: I live south of and work north of an internal Border Patrol checkpoint. That means everyday on my way to work, I, at minimum have to state my citizenship to an armed federal agent to continue moving freely throughout my own(supposedly free) country. Been doing this for a bit over a year. About 60% of the time its a quick “US citizen”, “yep” or a wave through. The other 40% of the time, the questions come. I was getting sick of this crap and about 2 months ago one BP agent(Glorified Mall Security Guard[GMSG]) really really pissed me off. GMSG: how you doing Me: fine GMSG: US citizen Me: yup GMSG: where are you going? Me: (pointing forward) thata way. GMSG: excuse me Me: (pointing forward again) thata way. GMSG: How far are you going? Me: As far as my free American self feels like taking me. GMSG: what do you do for a living? Me: Thats none of your business. Devolved into a 5 minute argument until I was let go. I did some research and got a lot smarter, and learned how to piss them off a lot more, exercise you’re constitutional rights. Tuesday’s encounter. GMSG: how ya doin? Me: fine GMSG: US citizen Me: Yes sir, (I actually did say sir, they call me sir a lot, I call them sir) GMSG: How far are you headed? Me: Am I free to go sir? (that’s my business, this is a free country right?) GMSG: You can’t leave until you answer my question! (I can’t be detained for refusal to answer a question, I need a cite for this) Me: Am I free to go sir. The lazy sack slides on his sunglasses and comes waddling down from the stairs to his shack to inform me… GMSG: I asked you a question!!! Me: Am I free to go now sir? GMSG: You’re not leaving until you answer my question. Me: (look straight ahead, getting pissed off since the monkey is yelling at me like I stole a cookie, say nothing) GMSG: (screaming and spitting) DO YOU HAVE A PROBLEM WITH ME ASKING YOU A QUESTION??? Me: YES I DO!! I am an American citizen traveling freely throughout the United States. GMSG: I’m just trying to do my job here Me: (already pissed off), No sir, your job is 50 miles thata way, on the border. GMSG: well we have human smuggling, drugs BLAH BLAH BLAH Me: and… Am I free to go sir? GMSG: You need to answer my question!!! Me: Sir am I being detained? GMSG: Where are you going?!?!?!?!? Me: AM I BEING DETAINED At that point another Agent yelled at him to let me go, and I did say “Thank You.” I know some people are going to say I should be thankful that they are protecting my freedoms by violating my rights daily. I think its bullshit. I’m in the process of writing a letter of complaint to the Chief Patrol Officer, which of course will also be sent to both of my senators and my congressman, just trying to find the info I need. I’m just so damn sick of it, I’m just trying to go to work and be a good little American as a DoD contractor making stuff that kills people. And I get to check in with a government agent everyday on my way to the my shop, seems more like East Germany to me. I never had to deal with this crap when I lived in the Northeast, I never had to deal with this crap when I lived and worked south of the KGB checkpoints, now I’m a suspect everyday, and treated as such. ---
**Author:** ![Mosier](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ea924/32.png) [@Mosier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mosier)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2008, 4:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/permanent-internal-checkpoints-every-day/474885/2 "2008-11-29T04:37:15Z")
You’re not treated as a suspect until you act suspicious. Having the right to do something doesn’t make you less of an asshole for doing it. You’ve got a point though. Once the checkpoint confirms citizenship I don’t see the point in them hassling you any further. Do you really think it’s unreasonable to have checkpoints like these within 50 miles of the border? How close to the border is “close enough” in your eyes for a checkpoint to be legitimate? ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2008, 4:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/permanent-internal-checkpoints-every-day/474885/3 "2008-11-29T04:37:34Z")
On the one hand, I totally get where you’re coming from with the exercise of your rights; without knowing more about this situation, it sounds pretty hinky. On the other hand, you could exercise them without pissing people off, at least not as badly, by explaining to them. Say something like, “I’m a big fan of exercising my constitutional rights when confronted by law enforcement officers, and so I prefer only to answer questions that I am required by law to answer.” Daniel ---
**Author:** ![asterion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4da419/32.png) [@asterion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asterion)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2008, 4:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/permanent-internal-checkpoints-every-day/474885/4 "2008-11-29T04:40:51Z")
On the border and no farther. If they can’t get it right the first time then forget it. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2008, 4:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/permanent-internal-checkpoints-every-day/474885/5 "2008-11-29T04:42:36Z")
> [@Mosier](#): > > You’ve got a point though. Once the checkpoint confirms citizenship I don’t see the point in them hassling you any further. Do you really think it’s unreasonable to have checkpoints like these within 50 miles of the border? How close to the border is “close enough” in your eyes for a checkpoint to be legitimate? As close as they can conveniently build the guard shacks. I’d think fifty to a hundred yards is far enough. ---
**Author:** ![Mosier](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ea924/32.png) [@Mosier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mosier)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2008, 4:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/permanent-internal-checkpoints-every-day/474885/6 "2008-11-29T04:45:37Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > As close as they can conveniently build the guard shacks. I’d think fifty to a hundred yards is far enough. Have you been anywhere near the border? There’s a lot of reasons 50-100 yards to the border wouldn’t be convenient, not the least of which is terrain. Are you saying that you suspect the checkpoints are built at INCONVENIENT places? ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2008, 4:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/permanent-internal-checkpoints-every-day/474885/7 "2008-11-29T04:45:47Z")
I have been through these in West Texas, they are pretty obnoxious. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2008, 4:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/permanent-internal-checkpoints-every-day/474885/8 "2008-11-29T04:46:44Z")
> [@Mosier](#): > > Have you been anywhere near the border? There’s a lot of reasons 50-100 yards to the border wouldn’t be convenient, not the least of which is terrain. Are you saying that you suspect the checkpoints are built at INCONVENIENT places? Okay, 200 yards. Is 400 neough? Fifty miles seems a bit absurd. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2008, 4:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/permanent-internal-checkpoints-every-day/474885/9 "2008-11-29T04:48:26Z")
They are built on major Coyote corridors. Places where highway traffic is funneled through a few very specific areas. They also have border patrol vehicles patrolling ranches and the backwater desert areas. They are strategically placed, so it’s not haphazard, but it is still annoying. ---
**Author:** ![Mosier](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ea924/32.png) [@Mosier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mosier)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2008, 4:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/permanent-internal-checkpoints-every-day/474885/10 "2008-11-29T04:57:34Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > Okay, 200 yards. Is 400 neough? > > Fifty miles seems a bit absurd. Fifty miles does seem a bit far, but I wouldn’t call it absurd. It’s a 30 minute drive at normal highway speeds. 400 yards is barely enough time to see a checkpoint and stop safely at highway speeds. In fact, 400 yards seems much more absurd to me than 50 miles does. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2008, 5:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/permanent-internal-checkpoints-every-day/474885/11 "2008-11-29T05:02:11Z")
100 Miles per hour is normal driving speed? ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2008, 5:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/permanent-internal-checkpoints-every-day/474885/12 "2008-11-29T05:08:28Z")
> [@Mosier](#): > > Fifty miles does seem a bit far, but I wouldn’t call it absurd. It’s a 30 minute drive at normal highway speeds. 400 yards is barely enough time to see a checkpoint and stop safely at highway speeds. In fact, 400 yards seems much more absurd to me than 50 miles does. They are giant metal sheds and usually traffic is stopped a ways from them. Of you cant stop within 400 yards you are going way too fast. ---
**Author:** ![Mosier](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ea924/32.png) [@Mosier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mosier)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2008, 5:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/permanent-internal-checkpoints-every-day/474885/13 "2008-11-29T05:08:42Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > 100 Miles per hour is normal driving speed? Ok, you win by about 9 minutes. My argument is in shambles. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2008, 5:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/permanent-internal-checkpoints-every-day/474885/14 "2008-11-29T05:08:57Z")
> [@Mosier](#): > > Fifty miles does seem a bit far, but I wouldn’t call it absurd. It’s a 30 minute drive at normal highway speeds. 400 yards is barely enough time to see a checkpoint and stop safely at highway speeds. What, they don’t have the technology in Texas to build signs you can see from more than 400 yards away? I live near a border. They don’t seem to have cars rocketing into the guard barriers here because the border creeps up on them. They use signs and whatnot to let people know the border’s coming up. It doesn’t seem too complicated. ---
**Author:** ![Stealth\_Potato](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Stealth\_Potato](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stealth_Potato)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2008, 5:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/permanent-internal-checkpoints-every-day/474885/15 "2008-11-29T05:44:56Z")
> [@Mosier](#): > > You’re not treated as a suspect until you act suspicious. Having the right to do something doesn’t make you less of an asshole for doing it. There’s nothing asshole-ish about firmly insisting upon your rights. The problem lies strictly with the overzealous dirtbag of an agent who cares more about his ego and his perceived authority than he does about the rights of citizens. It also lies in great measure with the fuckers who dreamed up the idea of “internal border checkpoints” in the first place – seriously, what the _ **fuck?** _ I didn’t even know such things existed until now. Under what legitimate authority do they claim to be able to waylay and detain you in the first place? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2008, 5:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/permanent-internal-checkpoints-every-day/474885/16 "2008-11-29T05:45:09Z")
It’s unclear to me if the OP is seeking any factual information about the legality of Border Patrol checkpoints. In _United States v. Martinez-Fuerte_, 428 U.S. 543 (1976), the Supreme Court upheld the constitutionality of a checkpoint 66 miles from the Mexican border. As long as the stop and question procedure is routinely and evenly applied to all vehicles, the checkpoint involves minimal officer discretion and is not likely to result in abuse, and the appearance of authority of the officers at the checkpoint is sufficient to allay the concerns of lawful travelers over the legitimacy of the stop, the intrusion is brief enough and the interests of the government compelling enough to make the process constitutional. ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2008, 6:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/permanent-internal-checkpoints-every-day/474885/17 "2008-11-29T06:03:32Z")
> [@Stealth\_Potato](#): > > It also lies in great measure with the fuckers who dreamed up the idea of “internal border checkpoints” in the first place – seriously, what the _ **fuck?** _ I didn’t even know such things existed until now. Under what legitimate authority do they claim to be able to waylay and detain you in the first place? I can remember a checkpoint north of San Diego many, many years ago. Ostensibly, it was more about agriculture, trying to prevent fruit flies or something from spreading north. But the concept isn’t that new. ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2008, 6:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/permanent-internal-checkpoints-every-day/474885/18 "2008-11-29T06:32:18Z")
> [@Mosier](#): > > Once the checkpoint confirms citizenship I don’t see the point in them hassling you any further. How exactly do these checkpoints confirm citizenship? American citizens traveling from one point within the United States to another point within the United States are not required to carry proof of citizenship with them, so exactly what good does stopping people at some random point in Arizona or New Mexico and simply _asking_ them if they’re citizens do? What if the person says “Yes” (or for that matter “Si, si! Americano! Si!”), and the border patrol agent doesn’t believe them? Exactly how long can a person be detained at one of these checkpoints, on what grounds, and what–for a person traveling entirely within the United States–constitutes proof of citizenship anyway? > [@](#): > > Do you really think it’s unreasonable to have checkpoints like these within 50 miles of the border? How close to the border is “close enough” in your eyes for a checkpoint to be legitimate? Border checkpoints should be sited so that people who are actually _crossing a border_ are subjected to them. I can imagine a case where there is a single controlled-access highway crossing an international border and the border control area is several miles inside the territory of that country, with no intervening onramps or offramps. For that matter, a border control point might be located in an international airport in Iowa; passengers disembarking from any flight coming into that airport from outside the country would have to clear customs and border control. Conversely, a border control checkpoint might actually be located outside the territory of the country operating it; if there is a ferry that leaves a port in country A and travels to a port in country B, then the two countries might agree that country B will be allowed to set up its checkpoint at the ferry terminus in country A, before the passengers even board the ferry, let alone set foot on country B’s soil. None of these apply to the checkpoints which are the subject of this thread. They are sited so that people traveling entirely within the United States nonetheless have to pass through them. ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2008, 11:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/permanent-internal-checkpoints-every-day/474885/19 "2008-11-29T11:19:52Z")
Why would you care if you have nothing to hide? Good citizens would cooperate with their government. (Please read this in the most sarcastic tone.) Seems like they’re wasting their time too. I know of a few 7/11 parking lots in northern Virginia where they could catch more illegals. ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2008, 11:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/permanent-internal-checkpoints-every-day/474885/20 "2008-11-29T11:33:54Z")
> [@MEBuckner](#): > > Conversely, a border control checkpoint might actually be located outside the territory of the country operating it; if there is a ferry that leaves a port in country A and travels to a port in country B, then the two countries might agree that country B will be allowed to set up its checkpoint at the ferry terminus in country A, before the passengers even board the ferry, let alone set foot on country B’s soil. FWIW, America makes use of just such arrangements - [United States border preclearance - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_border_preclearance) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/permanent-internal-checkpoints-every-day/474885.md?page=2)