# Permission to ask a dumb question about illegal immigration ... **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [March 12, 2002, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/permission-to-ask-a-dumb-question-about-illegal-immigration/97914 "2002-03-12T21:15:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 15\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![SuaSponte](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/67e7ee/32.png) [@SuaSponte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SuaSponte)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2002, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/permission-to-ask-a-dumb-question-about-illegal-immigration/97914/1 "2002-03-12T21:15:56Z")
Repeatedly in the media, I’m reading how “people smuggling,” bringing in illegal immigrants into the US, Australia, the EU, etc., has become an immensely widespread and profitable business for criminal groups. Prices up to around $5,000 are routinely cited as the going rate to be stuffed into a cargo hold, led through the Southwestern American deserts, etc., in order to get into these countries. Now comes the really dumb question (ready?): Why don’t these people just take a plane instead? I’m thinking that if a poor worker in, say, Ecuador is able to save or borrow $5k to pay a “coyote” to get him across the US border, he could instead get a tourist visa and use part of the $5k to buy a plane ticket to New York City. Once in the US (EU, etc.), our hypothetical Ecuadorean could simply “forget” to go home when his tourist visa expired. Now I know that immigration has been greatly restricted since 9/11, but the phenomenon of people smuggling was going on well before then. Is there something basic about the availablility of tourist visas, for example, that I’m not aware of? Sua ---
**Author:** ![Ned](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/848f3c/32.png) [@Ned](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ned)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2002, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/permission-to-ask-a-dumb-question-about-illegal-immigration/97914/2 "2002-03-12T21:23:55Z")
It isn’t quite that simple. > [@](#): > > You must demonstrate that you are properly classifiable as a visitor under U.S. law. You may provide evidence that shows the purpose of your trip, your intent to depart the United States, and arrangements you have made to cover the costs of your trip. It is impossible to specify the exact form the evidence should take since circumstances vary greatly. > > · If you are traveling to the U.S. on business, you may present a letter from the U.S. business firm indicating the purpose of your trip, your intended length of stay, and the firm’s intent to cover travel costs. > > · If you are traveling to the U.S. for pleasure, you may use letters from relatives or friends in the U.S. whom you plan to visit, or confirmation of participation in a planned tour. > > · If you are traveling to the U.S. for medical treatment, you should have a statement from a doctor or institution concerning the proposed medical treatment. > > If you do not have sufficient funds to support yourself while in the U.S., you must present convincing evidence that an interested person will provide support. You are not permitted to accept employment during your stay in the U.S. Depending on individual circumstances, you may provide other evidence substantiating your trip’s purpose and specifying the nature of binding obligations, such as family ties or employment, which would compel your return abroad. ---
**Author:** ![Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/50afbb/32.png) [@Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duck_Duck_Goose)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2002, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/permission-to-ask-a-dumb-question-about-illegal-immigration/97914/3 "2002-03-12T21:26:57Z")
I’m guessing that it has something to do with “networking” and “familiarity”. They know somebody who knows somebody who can get you over the border, and it’s just a whole lot easier than trying to figure out all by yourself how to get a visa, get a plane ticket, get to New York, and what to do once you get there. The way they’ve been doing it, there’s a “network”. It’s a standard routine. If these people were high enough functioning that they could manage to get the visa/ticket/live in New York thing figured out by themselves, they wouldn’t be poor Ecuadorian peasants looking to get a minimum wage job in the U.S.–they’d be Ecuadorian businessmen. ---
**Author:** ![BobT](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8e8cbc/32.png) [@BobT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobT)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2002, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/permission-to-ask-a-dumb-question-about-illegal-immigration/97914/4 "2002-03-12T21:32:17Z")
I would think Immigration officials will probably give an extra once-over to anyone arriving from a relatively poor country, who doesn’t seem to be visiting for pleasure, has no relatives in the country, and quite possibly doesn’t have a return ticket home. ---
**Author:** ![StephenG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/7feea3/32.png) [@StephenG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/StephenG)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2002, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/permission-to-ask-a-dumb-question-about-illegal-immigration/97914/5 "2002-03-12T21:39:50Z")
Mightn’t it also be a question of the ease of _exit_? IIRC, during the Cold War, USSR citizens had a much greater problem getting exit visas from the USSR than entry visas into the US (or anywhere else in the Western World). Generally, one only goes through customs once – to enter the country. However, this is much more apparent when driving than when flying. When flying, you need the passport to book the flight, and again to get a boarding pass … and one could be stopped at any time. I suspect people are willing to be smuggled in as much to avoid officially exiting their country of origin as to avoid officially entering somewhere else. ---
**Author:** ![Balthisar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/balthisar/32/2825_2.png) [@Balthisar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Balthisar)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2002, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/permission-to-ask-a-dumb-question-about-illegal-immigration/97914/6 "2002-03-12T21:47:25Z")
I’ve thought about becoming a pollero myself. I live on the US-Canadian border, and Mexicans (and probably other Latin Americans) can come into Canada without a visa of any type. With our nautical traditions, it’s a very trivial thing to land on either side of the river/lake without customs/immigration taking a second look. (I never WOULD really do this though – just a thought). ---
**Author:** ![Balthisar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/balthisar/32/2825_2.png) [@Balthisar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Balthisar)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2002, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/permission-to-ask-a-dumb-question-about-illegal-immigration/97914/7 "2002-03-12T21:53:13Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by StephenG \* > \*\*IIRC, during the Cold War, USSR citizens had a much greater problem getting exit visas from the USSR than entry visas into the US (or anywhere else in the Western World). \*\* Yeah, but most western-hemisphere countries don’t require an exit visa of any type. Free countries don’t prohibit free travel. > [@](#): > > \*\*Generally, one only goes through customs once – to enter the country. However, this is much more apparent when driving than when flying. When flying, you need the passport to book the flight, and again to get a boarding pass … and one could be stopped at any time. \*\* In the USA, I’ve never needed anything to book a flight or even buy the tickets. Usually the airline checks that you have a passport, visa, or birth certificate (depending on the destination) just to satisfy the destination country. For example, to get into Mexico or Canada from the USA, nothing more than proof of US Citizenship is needed, and only at departure/gate-check. ---
**Author:** ![OxyMoron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/e9a140/32.png) [@OxyMoron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OxyMoron)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2002, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/permission-to-ask-a-dumb-question-about-illegal-immigration/97914/8 "2002-03-12T22:05:31Z")
Sua, my understanding from reporting on the Golden Venture (that was the leaking boat found adrift near New York harbor a few years back, with dozens of Chinese stuffed aboard in appalling squalor) is that the Chinese gangs let their clients pay through debt. It may be most effective with the Chinese smugglers: as I recall, many of them operate in the poverty-stricken coastal province of Fujian, where the local dialect is quite different from Mandarin. That makes the clients doubly linguistically isolated and that much easier to coerce into accepting jobs (often in Chinese restaurants or the garment industry) paying only a dollar or two an hour, and housing stacked twelve to a room. It’s really indentured servitude. Since the charges may be upwards of $25-35 thousand (US), the servitude can last quite a few years. Actually, as I’m describing this I’m realizing that I read a lot of this information in articles following a particularly brutal execution-style murder in the “new Chinatown” of Sunset Park, Brooklyn, a few years after the Golden Venture. A Chinese gang was suspected of having killed one of its clients who had either fallen behind the debt, tried to escape, or both (I don’t remember exactly). Nasty, nasty stuff. Oh, here’s a link with much, much more detail (from the website of the U.S. Embassy in Beijing): [http://www.usembassy-china.org.cn/english/sandt/snakehead.html](http://www.usembassy-china.org.cn/english/sandt/snakehead.html). ---
**Author:** ![D\_Odds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/d_odds/32/2882_2.png) [@D\_Odds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Odds)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2002, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/permission-to-ask-a-dumb-question-about-illegal-immigration/97914/9 "2002-03-12T22:08:56Z")
(i)Ignorance: They don’t know (and no coyote will tell them) how to fool the system into thinking they are simply visiting Disneyland or Vegas, and simply staying once they are here. (I believe we get more of this sort from the Middle East). Plus the coyotes will make them believe that INS can track their every move if they come in through a regulated border crossing. (ii)Money up-front: You have to pay for airline tickets ahead of time. Many illegal immigrants don’t pay until after they are here. And I’ve heard $30,000 to $50,000 numbers for Asian immigrants; that’s more than a lifetime’s savings in some Southeast Asian countries. (iii)Propoganda: Coyotes will sell all those immigrants who they helped come to the US and now drive Mercedes. (This just made me think of the movie The Running Man with Ahnold). ---
**Author:** ![Jet\_Jaguar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jet_jaguar/32/3562_2.png) [@Jet\_Jaguar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jet_Jaguar)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2002, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/permission-to-ask-a-dumb-question-about-illegal-immigration/97914/10 "2002-03-12T22:15:58Z")
**Ned** has it right. It isn’t that they can’t get out of their own country, it’s that the US won’t let them in. It is not easy getting a visa, and immigration policy is set up to keep people out. My wife is from mainland China and when we got married, they (the USA) would not even give her parents a tourist visa so they could attend our wedding. ---
**Author:** ![OxyMoron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/e9a140/32.png) [@OxyMoron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OxyMoron)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2002, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/permission-to-ask-a-dumb-question-about-illegal-immigration/97914/11 "2002-03-12T22:25:47Z")
And here’s the link so it actually works: [http://www.usembassy-china.org.cn/english/sandt/snakehead.html](http://www.usembassy-china.org.cn/english/sandt/snakehead.html) ---
**Author:** ![China\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/779978/32.png) [@China\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/China_Guy)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2002, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/permission-to-ask-a-dumb-question-about-illegal-immigration/97914/12 "2002-03-13T01:17:40Z")
There are a lot of hurdles depending on what country you are from. First, you need a valid passport. Second, you may need an exit permit. Third, you need a valid visa to another country like the US (you may need the visa before you can get an exit permit). Getting the US visa can be very difficult, expensive and time consuming, especially if you come from a country considered to be high risk of staying illegally in the US. Airlines will not allow you to board without a valid visa to the country they are flying to (this is true of US citizens flying abroad to a country like Australia that requires a visa). I personally know of hundreds of property owing professionals who make much more money in their home country than they can in the US, who have been denied business and/or tourist visas. Imagine the difficulty of an uneducated peasant trying to get a visa. Jet Jaguar, I feel your pain. ---
**Author:** ![reprise](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ea666f/32.png) [@reprise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/reprise)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2002, 1:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/permission-to-ask-a-dumb-question-about-illegal-immigration/97914/13 "2002-03-13T01:46:56Z")
**Sua** , many (if not all) of the people who arrive here in Australia via people smugglers come from countries with whom we do not maintain diplomatic relations. There is nowhere within their own country to apply for a visa let alone permanent residence. Even if these people applied for a tourist visa in a third party country and it was granted, the big risk is that if they overstay that visa and are caught (not as unlikely as you might think in a country with a small population like ours), they **will** be deported, and any future application for entry into our country will be prejudiced. Even those who successfully overstay a tourist visa undetected will find it hard to participate in Australian life - they simply won’t have the government records necessary to access our banking system, our health care system, our taxation system, our welfare system etc. They will have to live and work in the cash economy indefinitely. They will never be able to make an application for their family members to join them here. While there is a perception that many people who use people smugglers are quite wealthy, from the documentaries I have seen what often occurs is they spend all available resources getting to a country from which people smugglers operate and then spend many months in virtual slavery “working” for their passage to Australia. For those wishing to settle in Australia longterm, arriving via people smugglers is **still** a better option than overstaying a tourist visa. It’s around a 50-50 gamble these days to arrive by boat in the hope of obtaining refugee status. That’s still better odds for the desperate than the absolute certainty of being deported if they are caught overstaying a visa. Not to hijack, but I’ve often wondered why we have never perceived Oskar Schindler as a “people smuggler”. It’s a word that has a bad connotation these days, and I’m not sure that it’s one which is entirely deserved. ---
**Author:** ![Balthisar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/balthisar/32/2825_2.png) [@Balthisar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Balthisar)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2002, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/permission-to-ask-a-dumb-question-about-illegal-immigration/97914/14 "2002-03-16T16:20:20Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by China Guy \* > \*\*I personally know of hundreds of property owing professionals who make much more money in their home country than they can in the US, who have been denied business and/or tourist visas. Imagine the difficulty of an uneducated peasant trying to get a visa. \*\* My Mexican wife had this exact problem. She is/was a dentist, with property and buildings, with credit – essentially well-to-do (by American standards!), and we couldn’t get a tourist visa. So, we settled on _not_ just waiting for the financee visa and hoping she wouldn’t hate Michigan when she got here. ---
**Author:** ![Cazzle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cazzle/32/75_2.png) [@Cazzle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cazzle)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2002, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/permission-to-ask-a-dumb-question-about-illegal-immigration/97914/15 "2002-03-16T16:32:09Z")
Reprise said it well, but one of the things about these people is that they often arrive without ID, etc. Try getting anywhere without a passport.