I read on a message board somewhere about a guy who considered shooting someone he encountered on the road because he didn’t like her driving to be acting in self-defense, so it seems people are dumb all over.
I don’t have children of my own. But it doesn’t matter. Go through the logical steps. Really think about it, don’t just have a knee-jerk reaction.
A little toddler is alone in a room. There is a pistol, sitting on a table, with the safety on. In order to harm himself with the pistol, the toddler would have to do the following. He would have to take the safety off. How would he know where the safety was? You really think it’s likely that he would fool with it enough to accidentally take the safety off? Let’s say he does get the safety off; now he has to cock it. In other words, pull back the slide, which requires a degree of force and grip far greater than what a toddler could accomplish. Then he would have to point it at himself, after all of that, and while pointing it at himself, he would have to pull the trigger. Even if the hypothetical gun were already cocked and already in firing mode with the safety off, eliminating the two biggest obstacles to a child firing it, he would still have to consciously point it at himself, place his finger inside the trigger guard on the trigger, and then pull the trigger, to harm himself with the pistol.
Now, the same little toddler is alone in a room with a tub of water. In order for him to drown, he would have to crawl over to the tub, climb over the side, and fall in.
Does it really take Dr. House to understand this? It seems pretty simple to me.
Let’s both be honest though – we’re both brick walls just holding up opposite sides of the same roof. God love us both for it.
There are a couple different ways I could respond. The flip version would be that I hope people see the first two with a certain amount of curiosity and the later with a certain amount of mirth. A moron who would carry a firearm (or a dildo for that matter) into a mall as you describe probably isn’t smart enough to load it let alone pose a threat. The less flip version is that I hope people would take appropriate action in all three cases; in other words, they are all much the same.
Of course, I always was a Wendy O Williams fan and she had problems with differentiations like that as well.
Hey, you can’t make an omelette without killing a few scapegoat minorities.
Stranger
OK - from the original drift that I contributed to I am now drifting yet again and in another direction. If one of the mods wishes to warn me for it, I have no objections. I’m warning myself already.
I have read on message boards that people opposed to private ownership of firearms have considered bombing dealers much as those against abortion bombed abortion and family planning clinics. I don’t know how serious they were but I don’t doubt that its happened. I know for a fact that those same kinds of people have visited gun shows and hunter education classes with the intent of slipping live rounds into firearms; the eventual goal to cause injury or death. Pennsylvania greatly reworked their hunter education program (I guess no one is going to be really surprised if I admit to being an instructor?) because of the threat such efforts constituted to the safety of all our participants. Usually the argument is defense of others more than self-defense (with firearms or abortion) but I’ve heard self-defense floated as well.
You are indeed right – there are dumb people all over. Doesn’t matter what the topic is or what side of it you are on; they are out there. Figure out a way to register and control them and you may just have my vote.
I attribute my phobia about pretty much any weapon to growing up with a sociopathic stepfather who kept guns (handguns, an Uzi and an AK47), hunting bows, big-ass knives and blow guns in the house at all times. Usually loaded, in the case of the guns. Hopefully that’s not why most people have this sort of phobia.
I can’t even go to the hunting equipment section of a sporting goods store. I’ve actually come close to having panic attacks being around all that stuff. To me, all those things scream “danger!” because, as others pointed out, they’re for killing things. I’m a thing, and I don’t wanna be killed.
My biggest moment of bravery when it comes to guns: I was doing a TV spot that involved shooting a bunch of holes in a briefcase. I wasn’t really able to direct the filming, but I stayed for the whole thing–squeezed into a corner with my heart racing. Better than I expected to manage.
I don’t hold it against anyone who’s into guns and uses them safely. I wouldn’t allow a guest to come into my home with a gun, and I’d probably be uncomfortable in someone else’s home if they had a bunch of guns on display. But I don’t hate or fear gun owners if they’re responsible about it.
Aaaah, from there we could drift into a discussion of the current racist tendencies in some of the gun laws and their application; denying firearms to those inner city people wishing to protect themselves while arming more affluent white commuters from the suburbs -------- but lets save that for next month.
You responded with the same bullshit argument made earlier.
Am I supposed to read your mind and divine some other meaning from what you posted?
:rolleyes:
Thanks! Am I being fair in assuming that in your case most weapons evoke a response and not just firearms? Would it be fair to say that guns, no matter who was holding them, evoke the same response? I’m trying to see how close you are to the type of person I am thinking of/curious about.
My sympathy for you for what you went through; things like that really aren’t OK with me at all. I really appreciate you jumping in like this.
That’s interesting, because I’m Canadian. Carrying a gun is as foreign an idea to me as carrying a lance and shield, and I have no need to see our carrying laws changed in any way. I don’t have a lot of faith in the good judgement of other people, but I’m not afraid of guns.
Still got your vote?
I am not afraid of them as objects - I have fired a fully auto AK47, but am concerned about their general availability in the US.
Thanks.
Yeah, pretty much any weapon will creep me out to varying degrees. I know that’s vague, because a kitchen knife, a table leg or a plastic bag can be a weapon too. I guess it’s stuff that’s made specifically for that purpose that will cause a response.
Usually no matter who’s holding a weapon, I’m wanting to get out of there. I’ve only seen a cop with his gun drawn once, and that’s something that I think would motivate anyone to clear out cuz that means bad shit is happening.
The story behind that: this was in LA, when I was in art school. The school was in a bad neighborhood, and I was coming out of one of the buildings (there were drawing studios in a commercial building with lots of other businesses)–middle of the afternoon–and ran into two cops who were crouched down, guns drawn. I think I actually squealed a little bit. They hustled me out of the way and ran into the building, and I didn’t bother to hang around to see what was going on.
I do. Please provide a cite.
I dislike the idea that those of us who dislike guns and prefer not to be around them have some kind of irrational phobia of them. I don’t like being around violent weapons. Yes, I do find people who collect fancy swords and knives as baffling as people who collect guns. I know some people in this thread have specifically denied making this point, but I did get into an argument awhile ago with someone who repeatedly tried to explain to me that I have a phobia of guns and that it was okay. This is patently untrue. I lived in Israel for a year when I was an undergrad and saw guns every since freaking day. When my classes went on field trips, we were escorted by an armed guard. If I were afraid of guns, I would have panic attacked to death. I dislike guns, I do not understand the desire to own them, and while I don’t automatically think less of someone for owning a gun, if they go on about how much they love guns and how awesome their collection is, yeah, I will start to think that we’re not gonna be friends. Because I don’t like them and I don’t think guns are awesome, I don’t want you to take me to the shooting range so you can show me how awesome they are, and I don’t want you to show me your collection.
This issue is so politicized that people really feel the need to prove themselves right a lot of the time. “No, really, you’ll love the shooting range! You should come! Just this once!” But I really don’t want to go. “You’ll come this one time and you’ll see!” No. “What’s wrong with all of you liberal hippies, anyway? It’s like talking to a brick wall!” Etc., etc.
Quoted for truth. In this thread, I’ve been painted by Argent and one or two other people as one of their vehement anti-gun opponents, assuming I’m a tree-hugging, finger-wagging busybody trying to make everyone give up their guns. 
I’m anything but. I’m from Texas, for cripes sake. I may even end up owning a gun myself at some point if we move back to the US, if circumstances seem necessary, but it’s not like I’m getting wood at the prospect.
Like you, I’m not panicked by guns but I freely admit that I rather dislike them, and can certainly understand why some people would have an (anything but irrational) fear of them. I might also have reservations about being friends with someone who was really gung ho on their gun or knife collection. [Shrek: “d’ya think he’s compensatin’ fer somethin’?”] And I’d certainly not let one of my kids play over at Argent’s or Z’s house: call me hysterical, but someone who pooh-poohs the possibility of a small child being interested in playing with this big shiny metal thing and underestimates how (horrifyingly) clever even really little kids can be, is not someone I deem to have a hell of a lot of good judgment around the little ones in this or any other matter.
Good “on the street” intelligence being used to associate ‘non-criminal’ suspects with known criminal elements.
It wouldn’t get them all, but it would get the most well known ones and anyone who associates with them, who would tend to be the most dangerous anyway.
You’re assuming the gun has been properly secured. When a toddler kills himself or someone else with a gun, the gun hasn’t been secured.
I’m honestly having trouble understanding how you got to here from what I said.
You proposed a hypothetical involving leaving kids alone around pick one of two very dangerous objects, and because I’d rather leave a kid alone around the one that causes LESS accidental kid deaths, I’m pooh-poohing the danger? (Michigan Public Health Institute statistics show 1236 child deaths from drowning in 2000 and “only” 174 from accidental firearm discharge)
If your children were ever friends of my hypothetical children, I’d hope you’d be more interested in the fact my guns are in a safe AND trigger locked (the shotgun is also action locked with a separate key), with ammo in a separate place, because I’m probably the most paranoid person about gun safety in real life that I know.
Addendum to last: I’m not judging how safe my kids would be around your swimming pool based on your (presumed) answer to the hypothetical.
It wasn’t my hypothetical, but anyway. It was Argent who seemed to be going into details and laughing off the slightest possibility that (1) a toddler would be interested in this shiny object, (2) he wouldn’t futz around and play with the different buttons, (3) he would never have the strength to cock it (or whatever), and (4) he ever have any interest in looking down the barrel to figure out what was down there, or (5) he’d drop it in a way that would result in the firearm going off in his direction.
On the other hand Zeriel, by your post you seem to indicate that you’re very aware of the dangers involved. But can you understand that I’d want to know you really well and have a very high level of trust in your sense of responsibility before letting one of my kids over at your house, or the house of any gun owner? 'Cause it seems to me that for every responsible gun owner, there’s another creating weird hypotheticals and self-justifications and seeing no difference between a pistol and a potato peeler.
ETA in response to your addendum: Argent was positing a half-filled bathtub*, not a swimming pool. But FWIW, I wouldn’t have my kid over at someone’s house with a swimming pool without my being there, without (again) a very high level of trust in the owner’s vigilence and understanding of the dangers involved.
*Which was a silly comparison: my daughter could easily stand up and climb out of a tub, and has been able to since she was two (not that I’d leave her alone with a tub anyway, but the danger is much smaller than “OMG THEREZ WATERZ SHE’S GONNA DROWN!!”)
Good question.
The only time I see guns these days are being carried by policeman at train stations (I commute into central London) and they do scare me yes, even though I know the guys that have them are trained well. Growing up with no guns has to be part of it I’m sure but if I ever did see a civilian openly carrying a gun I would be worried why are they so scared that they have to carry a weapon? If they’re so scared that they openly carry a weapon will they make a rational decision at a time of stress? If I lived somewhere were I was so scared that I had to go armed I’d probably move rather than arm myself.