# Perry Mason moment in a murder trial: isn't the case over due to reasonable doubt? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [June 21, 2019, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/perry-mason-moment-in-a-murder-trial-isnt-the-case-over-due-to-reasonable-doubt/835829 "2019-06-21T02:13:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 13\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2019, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/perry-mason-moment-in-a-murder-trial-isnt-the-case-over-due-to-reasonable-doubt/835829/21 "2019-06-21T17:56:37Z")
> [@SamuelA](#): > > I think this SEAL is most likely guilty and most likely a dirtbag. I am just saying though, he should get a fair trial and this recent Perry Mason moment should count as reasonable doubt. It might turn out that way, but it’s not automatic. It’s up to the trier of fact. Even in Perry Mason, the only reason the trial ended (as I recall) when things like this happened was because the prosecution threw in the towel. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2019, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/perry-mason-moment-in-a-murder-trial-isnt-the-case-over-due-to-reasonable-doubt/835829/22 "2019-06-21T18:00:46Z")
> [@Falchion](#): > > I haven’t been following this, but your claim seems to be somewhat inconsistent with the linked story, which says: “The Navy Seal said that he witnessed Mr Gallagher unexpectedly begin stabbing the teenaged fighter after the two men had stabilised his injuries following an airstrike, but that **the stab wounds did not appear to be life-threatening**.” and that “Mr Scott said t **he injured victim may have survived the stabbing** , but he decided to plug his air tube with his thumb in the belief that he would be tortured by Iraqi forces if he survived.” (bolding added). > > Is his testimony being misreported? The medic says the kid would have been tortured to death later. I missed the fact that the stabbing was not life threatening. ---
**Author:** ![Oly](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/oly/32/8255_2.png) [@Oly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oly)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2019, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/perry-mason-moment-in-a-murder-trial-isnt-the-case-over-due-to-reasonable-doubt/835829/23 "2019-06-22T01:35:41Z")
Are you going to accept the word of a confessed murderer (who “confessed” only after he thought he wouldn’t be held accountable) that his injuries were not life threatening? Was there any other independent assessment of the severity of the injuries? ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2019, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/perry-mason-moment-in-a-murder-trial-isnt-the-case-over-due-to-reasonable-doubt/835829/24 "2019-06-22T19:45:09Z")
> [@SamuelA](#): > > Different trial I think and not relevant to this one. > > I think this SEAL is most likely guilty and most likely a dirtbag. I am just saying though, he should get a fair trial and this recent Perry Mason moment should count as reasonable doubt. If someone else confessing to a killing was all it took to derail a murder trial, then mafia guys could never be convicted of murder. Big Tony is on trial for killing Little Paulie, and Medium Sammy gets on the stand and confesses. Oh no! Instant acquittal for Big Tony. But Medium Sammy is in trouble, he’s confessed to the murder. He goes on trial, but then Big Tony gets on the stand and confesses to the murder. Oh no! Instant acquittal for Medium Sammy. But is Big Tony now in trouble again? No, he was acquitted at his trial, because Sammy confessed. Interlocking confessions produces reasonable doubt at both trials. In truth, the finder of fact is entitled to believe or disbelieve any testimony or evidence presented to them. They don’t have to believe the confession, because it’s obviously designed to help out a buddy, and the confessor was given immunity. Sounds like complete bullshit to me. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2019, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/perry-mason-moment-in-a-murder-trial-isnt-the-case-over-due-to-reasonable-doubt/835829/25 "2019-06-23T03:08:09Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Next up - murders committed by Siamese twins. > > Regards, > Shodan [Chained for Life](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chained_for_Life) ---
**Author:** ![jackdavinci](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackdavinci/32/3259_2.png) [@jackdavinci](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jackdavinci)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2019, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/perry-mason-moment-in-a-murder-trial-isnt-the-case-over-due-to-reasonable-doubt/835829/26 "2019-06-23T23:33:43Z")
I am not a legal expert by any means, but… 1. was this a military trial? If so, there are generally different rules. 2. Since you mentioned TV, if this were a legal show, in the rare case where the judge is the protagonist they might say something, but typically at this point in the episode, the prosecutor would be the one designated to ask for acuital, or if really stubborn at least offer a better plea deal. 3. What seems really weird though, is why the prosecutor would offer immunity to a hostile witness. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2019, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/perry-mason-moment-in-a-murder-trial-isnt-the-case-over-due-to-reasonable-doubt/835829/27 "2019-06-23T23:50:04Z")
If I read the article in the OP correctly, it was the judge which granted the immunity, when the witness asserted his Fifth Amendment right to remain silent. ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2019, 5:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/perry-mason-moment-in-a-murder-trial-isnt-the-case-over-due-to-reasonable-doubt/835829/28 "2019-06-24T05:03:05Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > If I read the article in the OP correctly, it was the judge which granted the immunity, when the witness asserted his Fifth Amendment right to remain silent. I haven’t been following the news carefully so I haven’t read anything else, but that’s what I came here to post. I wonder how that goes down. ---
**Author:** ![Omar\_Little](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omar_little/32/269_2.png) [@Omar\_Little](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omar_Little)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2019, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/perry-mason-moment-in-a-murder-trial-isnt-the-case-over-due-to-reasonable-doubt/835829/29 "2019-06-24T23:33:37Z")
> [@SamuelA](#): > > Yes. But in this case, the driver testifies he hit the cop first and the cop was dead when he saw the bullets hit. And the driver specifically says there was no blood spraying from the wounds because the cop was already dead. > > Maybe the driver is lying. I am just saying I don’t see how a rational trier of fact can conclude the chance the accused is guilty is 10 times or more as likely as this alternate explanation. This can all be verified by a medical examiner. You don’t have to believe or disbelieve the driver. ---
**Author:** ![SamuelA](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c77e96/32.png) [@SamuelA](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SamuelA)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2019, 4:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/perry-mason-moment-in-a-murder-trial-isnt-the-case-over-due-to-reasonable-doubt/835829/30 "2019-07-04T04:14:28Z")
> [@Omar\_Little](#): > > This can all be verified by a medical examiner. You don’t have to believe or disbelieve the driver. That’s changing the situation. Suppose you are sitting in the jury pool. The prosecution has made verbal arguments that “he did it” and showed that he could have done it. The defense has produced a witness who has admitted to doing it in open court, and the evidence indicates that he might have done it. The witness doesn’t come across the most credible witness you have ever seen, but he comes across as \*maybe \*telling the truth. How can any rational trier of fact say "well, he _may_ be lying, or he may not be, so let’s just believe **beyond a reasonable doubt** he’s lying. Because in order for the defendant to be factually guilty, it has to be beyond a reasonable doubt that this other witness who confessed to the crime be lying. It is not logically possible otherwise. I’m saying that unless you can go over the trial transcript and show some clear outright, observable _sign_ that indicates the witness is lying, or some clear factual inconsistency in his testimony, to make this decision is irrational. A person’s fate shouldn’t come down to the gut feel of a few random people. Legal, yes, and there are probably thousands of people sitting in prison today convicted by irrational juries. But irrational. ---
**Author:** ![SamuelA](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c77e96/32.png) [@SamuelA](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SamuelA)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2019, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/perry-mason-moment-in-a-murder-trial-isnt-the-case-over-due-to-reasonable-doubt/835829/31 "2019-07-07T17:23:13Z")
Well, it required a jury to vote for it, but the Perry Mason moment appears to have worked. Given the jury deliberated for days, it’s quite likely such a dramatic piece of evidence was the tipping point. > **[Navy SEAL Edward Gallagher sentenced to pay cut and demotion but no more jail...](https://www.cbsnews.com/news/navy-seal-edward-gallagher-acquitted-killing-isis-captive-sentenced-for-posing-with-corpse-2019-07-03/)** > > Gallagher was acquitted one day earlier of killing a 17-year-old ISIS militant > **[Navy SEAL Chief Accused of War Crimes Is Found Not Guilty of Murder...](https://www.nytimes.com/2019/07/02/us/navy-seal-trial-verdict.html)** > > The chief was convicted of a single charge for posing with the dead body of an ISIS captive. Edward Gallagher has been acquitted of murder and his punishment reduced to time served + demotion of one grade. Show’s over folks, the wrist slap has been issued. ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2019, 2:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/perry-mason-moment-in-a-murder-trial-isnt-the-case-over-due-to-reasonable-doubt/835829/32 "2019-07-08T02:45:33Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > If I read the article in the OP correctly, it was the judge which granted the immunity, when the witness asserted his Fifth Amendment right to remain silent. What the hell kind of immunity did the judge grant him? I’ve covered enough cases like this to know most immunity is very specific. Did the judge give him a complete get out of jail free card? I’d have expected him to be granted something about not being prosecuted if found to be an accessory to the killing somehow not more. ---
**Author:** ![SamuelA](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c77e96/32.png) [@SamuelA](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SamuelA)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2019, 3:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/perry-mason-moment-in-a-murder-trial-isnt-the-case-over-due-to-reasonable-doubt/835829/33 "2019-07-08T03:15:33Z")
> [@Jonathan\_Chance](#): > > What the hell kind of immunity did the judge grant him? I’ve covered enough cases like this to know most immunity is very specific. Did the judge give him a complete get out of jail free card? I’d have expected him to be granted something about not being prosecuted if found to be an accessory to the killing somehow not more. “I plead the 5th unless I have total immunity to anything I might say in court in response to questions about the matter at hand” I thought this type of immunity \*had \*to be pretty broad or the witness’s attorneys will just refuse to allow him to testify. (you know, if he has good representation). And appeal to the next court up. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/perry-mason-moment-in-a-murder-trial-isnt-the-case-over-due-to-reasonable-doubt/835829.md?page=1)