# Perry's flat tax: "Cut, Balance and Grow" **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [October 25, 2011, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/perrys-flat-tax-cut-balance-and-grow/600733 "2011-10-25T13:49:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Cyberhwk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/7993a0/32.png) [@Cyberhwk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cyberhwk)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2011, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/perrys-flat-tax-cut-balance-and-grow/600733/41 "2011-10-27T03:40:20Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > Actually, this seems rather progressive for **Qin**. It shows he’s putting thought into things instead of repeating party talking points and taking things he was previously taught at face value. > > He may never be liberal, but a thinking conservative is nice addition to the ranks. It’s really quite amazing how far he’s come since his arrival here. ---
**Author:** ![Da\_Mikster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/bb73d2/32.png) [@Da\_Mikster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Da_Mikster)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2011, 7:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/perrys-flat-tax-cut-balance-and-grow/600733/42 "2011-10-27T07:30:21Z")
Not sure this is what he has in mind… but unintended consequences are kind of a given… so it might be a fairly accurate picture. > **[Flatland USA: Welcome to the Future, Rick Perry-Style](https://www.huffpost.com/entry/flatland-usa-welcome-to-t_b_1032830)** > > Poverty-stricken Americans in Rick Perry's Flatland navigate a landscape filled with danger, as crumbling bridges and collapsing buildings threaten their safety and rolling blackouts and water failures leave them thirsty and in the dark more and more... ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2011, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/perrys-flat-tax-cut-balance-and-grow/600733/43 "2011-10-27T20:36:50Z")
> [@Algorithm](#): > > Capital gains weren’t ever taxed at 92%. > > Additionally, the marginal rates of 90%+ of the 1950s only applied to income over $400,000 - around 3 million in today’s dollars. I don’t think I ever claimed that capital gains were ever taxed at 92%. I was saying that WITHOUT a lower capital gains rate, a lifetime of savings inside a business or something would get taxed at the ordinary rate of 92%. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2011, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/perrys-flat-tax-cut-balance-and-grow/600733/44 "2011-10-27T20:38:11Z")
> [@Sirreal72](#): > > Yeah, that statement is so flawed you have to wonder if anyone proofs these ideas, or if he just has a group of “yes” men hanging around. Within hours someone pointed out (as was done here a few posts ago) that if the flat 20% is optional, you won’t know if it works in your favor unless you do the new “postcard” form AND the old forms. And since the majority of people would pay **more** under the flat 20%, they will most certainly choose the old system and still have to use the old form. > > The more truthful claim would be that under the flat 20% tax “The _wealthy_ will be able to do away with expensive CPAs and file their taxes on a postcard!” Not even then. A lot of really wealthy still need to figure out what their income is. Its not the math that takes all the time and effort. ---
**Author:** ![fumster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e9c0ed/32.png) [@fumster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fumster)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2011, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/perrys-flat-tax-cut-balance-and-grow/600733/45 "2011-10-30T16:32:39Z")
Why is it that when someone proposes a tax plan that raises taxes on 90% of taxpayers, and lowers it on the top 10%, that people see it as a solution to the perceived problem that taxes are too high? “Well team, we are down 1. We can kick for a tie or risk a two point conversion for the win. My plan is to give the ball to the other team”. ---
**Author:** ![fumster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e9c0ed/32.png) [@fumster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fumster)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2011, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/perrys-flat-tax-cut-balance-and-grow/600733/46 "2011-10-30T16:37:04Z")
> [@Sirreal72](#): > > The more truthful claim would be that under the flat 20% tax “The _wealthy_ will be able to do away with expensive CPAs and file their taxes on a postcard!” You are buying into the first part of the craziness. Graduated tax brackets to do not make taxes more difficult than a flat rate. The hard part is determining what your income is. Once you have done that you just look up your liability in a table. Isn’t it the media’s job to point and laugh when candidates say inane things? How does this nonsense get propogated. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2011, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/perrys-flat-tax-cut-balance-and-grow/600733/47 "2011-10-30T22:50:07Z")
Does it not make sense that when there are higher taxes on corporations, they will leave the money in the business and expand? When they can take a pile out and pay small taxes, they are more likely to do so. ---
**Author:** ![amarone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e0b2c6/32.png) [@amarone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amarone)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2011, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/perrys-flat-tax-cut-balance-and-grow/600733/48 "2011-10-31T00:18:45Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > Does it not make sense that when there are higher taxes on corporations, they will leave the money in the business and expand? The problem is, though, that they leave the money in other countries - ones with lower tax rates. I worked for a US/UK company and we certainly did everything we legitimately could to maximize profits in the UK (versus the US) because the tax rates are lower. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2011, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/perrys-flat-tax-cut-balance-and-grow/600733/49 "2011-10-31T02:13:58Z")
> [@amarone](#): > > The problem is, though, that they leave the money in other countries - ones with lower tax rates. I worked for a US/UK company and we certainly did everything we legitimately could to maximize profits in the UK (versus the US) because the tax rates are lower. For many corps, there is no cheaper spot. lots of our largest corporations pay zero tax or get money back. They are among the largest and most successful on the planet. The 35 percent is a canard. Nobody pays it. [http://www.politico.com/news/stories/1011/67196.html](http://www.politico.com/news/stories/1011/67196.html) If you are a Perry fan, here is his latest “presidential type” speech. ---
**Author:** ![amarone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e0b2c6/32.png) [@amarone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amarone)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2011, 2:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/perrys-flat-tax-cut-balance-and-grow/600733/50 "2011-10-31T02:24:12Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > For many corps, there is no cheaper spot. There’s an [estimated trillion dollars or so](http://money.cnn.com/2011/02/16/news/companies/repatriation_lobby.fortune/index.htm) of money made overseas that ain’t coming back at current tax rates. > [@](#): > > lots of our largest corporations pay zero tax or get money back. They are among the largest and most successful on the planet. The 35 percent is a canard. Nobody pays it. Not exactly “nobody”, but I do agree that many large corporations can avoid/minimize tax - especially those who can get their tame politicians (i.e. recipients of donations) to insert loopholes for them. > [@](#): > > If you are a Perry fan. Good God no. ---
**Author:** ![MeanOldLady](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/meanoldlady/32/10737_2.png) [@MeanOldLady](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MeanOldLady)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2011, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/perrys-flat-tax-cut-balance-and-grow/600733/51 "2011-10-31T14:43:26Z")
> [@Jas09](#): > > I think my favorite part of Perry’s plan is how it “simplifies” things by now requiring every tax-paying entity to calculate their liability under both schemes and choose the one that benefits them the most. He even keeps a good number of deductions under the new scheme, so it’s not like the additional work is trivial. > > If I didn’t know better I’d think this was a scheme to make 9-9-9 look reasonable by comparison. Yes, exactly! He went on about simplicity when he unveiled his plan, and smugly remarked how his plan would make life easier by enabling tax payers to file on a form the size of a postcard. Great – but somehow the plan _coexists_ with the current tax code, so while it may be a no-brainer for the rich to accept the 20% flat tax, people like me would still have to tabulate taxes owed under _two_ systems if I wanted to pay less taxes. He doesn’t actually make anything simpler, except for saving money if you’re wealthy. What an ass. Perry’s done, but if he started rebounding at all, his tax plan would enjoy the same level of scrutiny that 9-9-9 did when Cain started polling decently. No one paid attention to 9-9-9 when it appeared that Cain would go nowhere, and similarly, increasing likelihood of landing the nomination will put Perry’s flat tax plan, which really isn’t all that flat, under a microscope. ---
**Author:** ![amarone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e0b2c6/32.png) [@amarone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amarone)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2011, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/perrys-flat-tax-cut-balance-and-grow/600733/52 "2011-10-31T18:59:10Z")
> [@MeanOldLady](#): > > people like me would still have to tabulate taxes owed under _two_ systems if I wanted to pay less taxes. And people like me who already have to calculate in two ways (regular and AMT) would have to do it three times. ---
**Author:** ![waterj2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/858c86/32.png) [@waterj2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/waterj2)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2011, 4:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/perrys-flat-tax-cut-balance-and-grow/600733/53 "2011-11-01T04:56:07Z")
> [@amarone](#): > > And people like me who already have to calculate in two ways (regular and AMT) would have to do it three times. I’m pretty sure that Perry’s flat tax would basically mean an alternative _maximum_ tax that is actually less than the current alternative _minimum_ tax, although perhaps not for all brackets. One advantage of being poor is that I’ve never needed to look into what the AMT is in detail. One [del]insane[/del] unusual twist to the plan is that, as I understand it, you can’t leave the flat tax once you switch to it. So, if you get paid well one year, you have to hedge your bets about which tax plan will be in your best interest in _future_ years as well. Sounds simple to me. [Here’s a quick look](http://motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2011/10/chart-day-cost-perry-tax-plan) at what rates people would end up paying compared to current law. For some reason, it ends up with the $100,000–$200,000 range paying the highest rate at 20%, with higher incomes paying a lower rate, with the $1M range down at 15%. The Tax Policy Center [calculated the revenue](http://www.taxpolicycenter.org/taxtopics/Perry-plan.cfm) this would bring: > [@](#): > > The Perry plan would reduce federal tax revenues dramatically. TPC estimates that on a static basis, the Perry plan would lower federal tax liability by $995 billion in calendar year 2015 compared with current law, roughly a 27 percent cut in total projected revenue. Relative to a current policy baseline, the reduction in liability would be roughly $570 billion in calendar year 2015. So, basically, a trillion (with a T) dollars less per year than a world where Congress lets the Bush tax cuts expire. Maybe Heritage can give the numbers for the Republican alternate universe where tax cuts on the rich unleash massive growth. Actually, are there any real economists defending this plan? Honestly, how is our country in the midst of a massive economic crisis, and we have serious contenders for the Presidency coming up with tax plans that aren’t even remotely serious? This shit reminds me of senior year of high school, when I had to write a 19 page paper for US History. I hated the teacher, who focused more on current events than history (we made it from Columbus to the Civil War, and completely _skipped the War of 1812_), and I was in that awkward stage of a bright teenage boy’s life after he discovers Ayn Rand. I slapped together a flat tax paper, with substantial plagiarization, over the course of the last night I could possibly still hand it in overdue and still graduate. I got a D, which, having already been accepted to the college of my choice suited me fine. That paper was probably a more serious flat tax plan than Rick Perry’s. ---
**Author:** ![Da\_Mikster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/bb73d2/32.png) [@Da\_Mikster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Da_Mikster)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2011, 10:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/perrys-flat-tax-cut-balance-and-grow/600733/54 "2011-11-01T10:33:02Z")
Crap, bullshit and snow, you say? ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2011, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/perrys-flat-tax-cut-balance-and-grow/600733/55 "2011-11-01T18:49:31Z")
> [@waterj2](#): > > I slapped together a flat tax paper, with substantial plagiarization, over the course of the last night I could possibly still hand it in overdue and still graduate. I got a D, which, having already been accepted to the college of my choice suited me fine. That paper was probably a more serious flat tax plan than Rick Perry’s. Hmmmm… \ You wouldn’t happen to know the exact location of that old term paper would you? Are you sure it has not gotten into the wrong hands? ---
**Author:** ![ProbablyProcrastinating](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/57b2e6/32.png) [@ProbablyProcrastinating](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ProbablyProcrastinating)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2011, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/perrys-flat-tax-cut-balance-and-grow/600733/56 "2011-11-01T18:56:38Z")
> [@shiftless](#): > > So, does Perry believe all problems with the current tax system can be summed up as, “it’s too hard to look up my tax on the table.” That is what I hear whenever anyone calls for a flat tax. At least Cain is proposing changing something other than the tax table. I’m not a big flat-tax person but I think the sum of their argument is more, “It’s hard for me to look up OTHER PEOPLE’S taxes on the table and I think they aren’t paying, so I have too many incentives to cheat and too many ways to hide it. But a flat tax seems basically fair and could be more fairly implemented.” Now, there are flaws with that argument as well. But I don’t think it’s about “I can’t figure out my own taxes.” It’s a bit more realistic than that. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2011, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/perrys-flat-tax-cut-balance-and-grow/600733/57 "2011-11-01T21:07:13Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > Does it not make sense that when there are higher taxes on corporations, they will leave the money in the business and expand? When they can take a pile out and pay small taxes, they are more likely to do so. Corporations pay dividends on after tax income. Hence the complaint about double taxation. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2011, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/perrys-flat-tax-cut-balance-and-grow/600733/58 "2011-11-01T21:10:04Z")
> [@amarone](#): > > The problem is, though, that they leave the money in other countries - ones with lower tax rates. I worked for a US/UK company and we certainly did everything we legitimately could to maximize profits in the UK (versus the US) because the tax rates are lower. Most countries do not tax worldwide income like we do. I always felt like tax competition between developed countries was a bit of a race to the bottom (competition ebtween states is cannibalism). ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2011, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/perrys-flat-tax-cut-balance-and-grow/600733/59 "2011-11-01T21:11:48Z")
> [@amarone](#): > > There’s an [estimated trillion dollars or so](http://money.cnn.com/2011/02/16/news/companies/repatriation_lobby.fortune/index.htm) of money made overseas that ain’t coming back at current tax rates. > Not exactly “nobody”, but I do agree that many large corporations can avoid/minimize tax - especially those who can get their tame politicians (i.e. recipients of donations) to insert loopholes for them. > Good God no. It ain’t coming back period. Bush cut thet ax rate to 5% one year so you would imainge that anyone that was going to repatriate would have done it then. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2011, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/perrys-flat-tax-cut-balance-and-grow/600733/60 "2011-11-01T21:19:20Z")
> [@ProbablyProcrastinating](#): > > I’m not a big flat-tax person but I think the sum of their argument is more, “It’s hard for me to look up OTHER PEOPLE’S taxes on the table and I think they aren’t paying, so I have too many incentives to cheat and too many ways to hide it. But a flat tax seems basically fair and could be more fairly implemented.” > > Now, there are flaws with that argument as well. But I don’t think it’s about “I can’t figure out my own taxes.” It’s a bit more realistic than that. No, the argument for flat taxes has always been to widen the base and lower the rate. In other words, in exchange for getting rid of all the loopholes that rich people enjoy, we should lower their tax rates so that you don’t really have disparity between rich person A who can avail himself of a lot of deductions and rich person B who cannot. So you widen the base by subjecting more income to taxes and OBVIOUSLY you MUST lower the rate to make up for the elimination of looholes. And in the process you might end up increasing the tax burden on some not so rich folks but fuck em, you also end up collecting less taxes (every single one of these plans incorporate fantastical assumptions about how much the economy will be stimulated by this tax cut). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/perrys-flat-tax-cut-balance-and-grow/600733.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/perrys-flat-tax-cut-balance-and-grow/600733.md?page=4)