# Persistent Obsession **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [November 19, 2019, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/persistent-obsession/843669 "2019-11-19T20:15:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2019, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/persistent-obsession/843669/81 "2019-12-11T16:00:24Z")
> [@Machinaforce](#): > > I get what you’re trying to say with the alcohol story, but I don’t think it’s the same here. Because in this case there is a claim to the truth of how reality really is: [Transcending the Illusion of Separateness | Creative by Nature](https://creativesystemsthinking.wordpress.com/2017/06/10/transcending-the-illusion-of-separateness/comment-page-1/?unapproved=26795&moderation-hash=83f9c438ae76704992936b8969b3de64#comment-26795) > > Like in the link it talks about how separateness is an illusion. That what we take to be me and “mine” is really just things that are from outside us and not inherent. That’s just one part but you get it. In a sense it’s not like the alcohol because it’s arguing against their being differences. Anyone can _claim_ that. And, _in their experience,_ it might even be true; it might not be, they might be lying or mistaken; but take that bit you linked to, where the claim is that: “There’s only beauty in living in the eternal.” Again, start by reminding yourself that maybe even someone saying that knows it’s false. But then ask: what if _that_ person only finds beauty that way, while other people find beauty in other ways? So he starts off with something he’s genuinely noticed, but then he starts uselessly running his mouth; is that possible? He goes on to frame it as a choice: it’s a life like that, or a life where “isolation brings feelings of insecurity, fear and anxiety”. And, again: maybe he’s lying, or something. But is it possible that it truly seemed that way to _him,_ and he’s just too dim to realize that other people might be doing just fine on a different path? ---
**Author:** ![Machinaforce](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/aeb1de/32.png) [@Machinaforce](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machinaforce)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2019, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/persistent-obsession/843669/82 "2019-12-11T19:00:21Z")
I know I was about to cite the “experience” line but then there was the string of logic or arguments made in the article ---
**Author:** ![Machinaforce](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/aeb1de/32.png) [@Machinaforce](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machinaforce)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2019, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/persistent-obsession/843669/83 "2019-12-11T23:16:22Z")
Most of it referring to how you are a product of other things and that nothing in the world stands alone, so to speak. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2019, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/persistent-obsession/843669/84 "2019-12-12T01:14:56Z")
> [@Machinaforce](#): > > Most of it referring to how you are a product of other things and that nothing in the world stands alone, so to speak. But, near as I can tell, that’s _irrelevant_. If he thinks it’s relevant, then near as I can tell you should probably rethink what he’s telling you; and if you think it’s relevant, then near as I can tell you should — well, probably rethink a lot of stuff. I’m trying to put myself in your shoes, here; put yourself in mine, for a moment, so I can get some clue as to why you’d ever mention that point. Picture me on the brink of making pretty much _any_ choice: say I give it a healthy amount of thought, say I nod upon reaching a decision, and say that _right then_ a guy pops in to say, hey, pal, maybe hold up for a moment and reconsider: you’re not factoring in how you’re a product of other things; and nothing, so to speak, stands alone! Uh, okay: what decision would this get me to reverse? _Tell me that story_: I was about to do something; but then a staggering new fact got brought to my attention, and so I reversed course. That’d be a heck of a thing, but — what _is_ it? ---
**Author:** ![Machinaforce](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/aeb1de/32.png) [@Machinaforce](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machinaforce)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2019, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/persistent-obsession/843669/85 "2019-12-18T01:04:52Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > But, near as I can tell, that’s _irrelevant_. If he thinks it’s relevant, then near as I can tell you should probably rethink what he’s telling you; and if you think it’s relevant, then near as I can tell you should — well, probably rethink a lot of stuff. > > I’m trying to put myself in your shoes, here; put yourself in mine, for a moment, so I can get some clue as to why you’d ever mention that point. Picture me on the brink of making pretty much _any_ choice: say I give it a healthy amount of thought, say I nod upon reaching a decision, and say that _right then_ a guy pops in to say, hey, pal, maybe hold up for a moment and reconsider: you’re not factoring in how you’re a product of other things; and nothing, so to speak, stands alone! > > Uh, okay: what decision would this get me to reverse? _Tell me that story_: I was about to do something; but then a staggering new fact got brought to my attention, and so I reversed course. That’d be a heck of a thing, but — what _is_ it? It’s mostly in regards to how I navigate the world and what can I call “me” (which I guess is like a compass that helps my decision making process easier). If as the link says nothing is my own then I am lost. Did you read the link though? One thing I wonder a lot is how people aren’t off put by the links I have read. What is it about them that isn’t upended? ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2019, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/persistent-obsession/843669/86 "2019-12-18T01:11:34Z")
> [@Machinaforce](#): > > One thing I wonder a lot is how people aren’t off put by the links I have read. What is it about them that isn’t upended? I just dismiss them as irrelevant and uninteresting. Do you get thrown off because you don’t follow the teachings of [insert deity here]? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2019, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/persistent-obsession/843669/87 "2019-12-18T02:09:00Z")
> [@Machinaforce](#): > > It’s mostly in regards to how I navigate the world and what can I call “me” (which I guess is like a compass that helps my decision making process easier). If as the link says nothing is my own then I am lost. > > Did you read the link though? One thing I wonder a lot is how people aren’t off put by the links I have read. What is it about them that isn’t upended? I read it. Why would any of it upend anything? That’s not just a flip remark; I’m asking for something specific, so I’ll give you some specifics to respond to. Say I tell you about my plans for the weekend: what I’ll eat for breakfast, how I hope to get in a bit of exercise, whether I’m going to volunteer at a soup kitchen — and maybe I’ll catch a movie at some point, unless I run into an old friend and we wind up having a good long chat or something? Oh, and maybe I’ll donate some blood, after returning a couple of library books? Not the most interesting life, I’ll grant you; but it’s what I had in mind. So tell me: _what linked fact,_ if brought to my attention, _would upend that?_ ---
**Author:** ![Machinaforce](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/aeb1de/32.png) [@Machinaforce](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machinaforce)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2019, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/persistent-obsession/843669/88 "2019-12-20T20:53:22Z")
> [@Procrustus](#): > > I just dismiss them as irrelevant and uninteresting. Do you get thrown off because you don’t follow the teachings of [insert deity here]? It’s not about the deity is more about the arguments behind what they are saying. Like the Zen Koan that mentions “what was your face before your father and mother were born”. Implying that you are inherently blank or “no-thing” since everything we take to be “us or me” is from somewhere outside of us or inherited, so it isn’t really us. I can’t point to something and say “that is so me” ---
**Author:** ![Machinaforce](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/aeb1de/32.png) [@Machinaforce](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machinaforce)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2019, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/persistent-obsession/843669/89 "2019-12-20T20:57:26Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > I read it. Why would any of it upend anything? > > That’s not just a flip remark; I’m asking for something specific, so I’ll give you some specifics to respond to. Say I tell you about my plans for the weekend: what I’ll eat for breakfast, how I hope to get in a bit of exercise, whether I’m going to volunteer at a soup kitchen — and maybe I’ll catch a movie at some point, unless I run into an old friend and we wind up having a good long chat or something? Oh, and maybe I’ll donate some blood, after returning a couple of library books? > > Not the most interesting life, I’ll grant you; but it’s what I had in mind. So tell me: _what linked fact,_ if brought to my attention, _would upend that?_ The types of books, the movie, and what you speak to your friend about, even the nature of the friendship, such things would not take place if there was not a “you” and traits to attribute to that. There would be no compass to help you decide what to do with your day without a “self”. ---
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2019, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/persistent-obsession/843669/90 "2019-12-20T20:58:15Z")
> [@Machinaforce](#): > > It’s not about the deity is more about the arguments behind what they are saying. Like the Zen Koan that mentions “what was your face before your father and mother were born”. Implying that you are inherently blank or “no-thing” since everything we take to be “us or me” is from somewhere outside of us or inherited, so it isn’t really us. I can’t point to something and say “that is so me” That isn’t a Zen Koan, that is a non sequitur. It does not make even the remotest amount of sense on any level. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2019, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/persistent-obsession/843669/91 "2019-12-21T01:10:18Z")
> [@Machinaforce](#): > > The types of books, the movie, and what you speak to your friend about, even the nature of the friendship, such things would not take place if there was not a “you” and traits to attribute to that. There would be no compass to help you decide what to do with your day without a “self”. Okay, but — I’m still _here,_ y’know? And the books are still _there,_ kind of like the movie and the friend and all the other stuff. To put it another way: say I’m heading to the doctor, to get a shot in the arm. Say, too, that someone says, “hey, don’t you know that _hurts?_” And I see a guy get a shot in the arm, and he winces and says “gosh, that hurts” — and I think, huh; I don’t want to get hurt! Pain BAD! So I reverse course away from the doctor — but then someone else tells me, “do you not get that suffering a little, from that shot, can keep you from getting sick and suffering WORSE?” And so I think, huh, okay; I guess I’ll turn back around, and get that shot after all! Or: say I’m subsisting on a junk-food diet, and someone points out the long-term ramifications of passing up healthier — though less-delicious — offerings in favor of empty calories. You get how that could make a guy rethink his choices and maybe start doing the opposite, right? Or: say a Christian comes to me and says, look, if you don’t change your ways in life, you’ll wind up getting tortured by hellfire in the afterlife; wouldn’t you rather have a heavenly eternity in paradise? Granted, that one’s never actually worked on me yet; but I can see how it _could,_ because I can see the _point_ of that pitch. That’s what I’m asking: I get how I could change my mind about stuff if you tell me it’s painful, or tell me it’s medicinal; or offer religious claims, instead of nutritional ones; or accuse me of stark hypocrisy; or reveal a way to get rich; or appeal to my compassion; and so on. So what will _you_ say, right before I catch up with an old friend over a good meal, to make me say, _“whoa, suddenly there’s no compass; how, then, can I now decide whether to stick with that course of action, or reverse course instead?”_ Why would I not still want the same things, with the same traits still in place as I make the same choices? Granted, various other sales pitches could effect a change; but how the heck do you figure _this_ one would work? ---
**Author:** ![Machinaforce](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/aeb1de/32.png) [@Machinaforce](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machinaforce)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2019, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/persistent-obsession/843669/92 "2019-12-23T00:58:59Z")
> [@Darren\_Garrison](#): > > That isn’t a Zen Koan, that is a non sequitur. It does not make even the remotest amount of sense on any level. It’s in line with what the link is saying about how nothing is truly “you” because it comes from outside of you or somewhere else. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2019, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/persistent-obsession/843669/93 "2019-12-23T01:27:12Z")
> [@Machinaforce](#): > > It’s in line with what the link is saying about how nothing is truly “you” because it comes from outside of you or somewhere else. Then perhaps your link is full of crap. ---
**Author:** ![Machinaforce](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/aeb1de/32.png) [@Machinaforce](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machinaforce)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2019, 3:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/persistent-obsession/843669/94 "2019-12-23T03:17:34Z")
> [@Telemark](#): > > Then perhaps your link is full of crap. I want to just write it off as that, but I can’t deny the logic in it. like how do we define “me” and what makes it up and all that. I want to just say “F it” and move on but again it seems to make sense. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2019, 4:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/persistent-obsession/843669/95 "2019-12-23T04:13:04Z")
> [@Machinaforce](#): > > I want to just write it off as that, but I can’t deny the logic in it. like how do we define “me” and what makes it up and all that. I want to just say “F it” and move on but again it seems to make sense. So what? There are people I care about. There are things I enjoy. There’s a whole life I’m in the middle of — and if a guy says stuff that Seems To Make Sense, well, gosh, that sure is great and all, but, again: people I care about and things I enjoy, y’know? All those are still, like, _right there_. Say I’m about to smoke a cigarette: if you point out that such a course of action could ruin my health, _then,_ sure, maybe I’ll rethink my decisions and drop that bad habit; but if you instead tell me that nothing is truly me, then — _what?_ That’s what I’m asking: even if it Seems To Make Sense, then _so what?_ ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2019, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/persistent-obsession/843669/96 "2019-12-23T16:39:09Z")
> [@Machinaforce](#): > > I want to just write it off as that, but I can’t deny the logic in it. You’ve been saying the exact same thing for the last five years. It appears that nothing has made an impression on you. Are you still getting anything useful from these threads? ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2019, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/persistent-obsession/843669/97 "2019-12-24T17:05:04Z")
> [@Machinaforce](#): > > I want to just write it off as that, but I can’t deny the logic in it. like how do we define “me” and what makes it up and all that. I want to just say “F it” and move on but again it seems to make sense. I’m not sure what additional logic besides the obvious biological explanation is required. Our “faces” are all products of genetic combination of our respective biological parents. Any philosophical explanation, religious or otherwise, is superficial justification to give life meaning. Don’t get me wrong, finding meaning in life is important. Especially when it becomes obvious we’re born to a losing battle. But we must fight on for as long as we live. It’s our duty. ---
**Author:** ![RioRico](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f04885/32.png) [@RioRico](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RioRico)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2019, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/persistent-obsession/843669/98 "2019-12-24T20:26:15Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > I’m not sure what additional logic besides the obvious biological explanation is required. Logics are fun. We can devise so many of them to explain anything. > [@](#): > > Our “faces” are all products of genetic combination of our respective biological parents. Any philosophical explanation, religious or otherwise, is superficial justification to give life meaning. Or rather, to give ourselves comfort, thinking that life has meaning. My cousin’s god worked in mysterious ways by killing her baby, now in her Savior’s arms. Should I strip off her comfort blanket? > [@](#): > > Don’t get me wrong, finding meaning in life is important. Especially when it becomes obvious we’re born to a losing battle. But we must fight on for as long as we live. It’s our duty. I like this: **The purpose of life is to find (or create) a purpose.** That’s a spiritual or philosophical goal. Biologically, our purpose is to survive and reproduce. All else is gravy. ---
**Author:** ![Machinaforce](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/aeb1de/32.png) [@Machinaforce](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machinaforce)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2019, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/persistent-obsession/843669/99 "2019-12-25T00:04:45Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > I’m not sure what additional logic besides the obvious biological explanation is required. Our “faces” are all products of genetic combination of our respective biological parents. Any philosophical explanation, religious or otherwise, is superficial justification to give life meaning. Don’t get me wrong, finding meaning in life is important. Especially when it becomes obvious we’re born to a losing battle. But we must fight on for as long as we live. It’s our duty. I don’t think it’s meant to be a literal face but more a remark on the self. The stuff that we like to attribute to “me” is all external and not inherent to us. So how can my like and dislikes be me, how can my responses to stimuli be me especially when such things are only in relation to other stimuli (like the link says that what we take to be our selves is just something in relation to other things, nothing that stands alone). With that being said is anything truly mine? Am I just a collection of stuff that has already happened? You asked “so what” and in this case the so what is challenging what I take to be me and how I’ve lived and operated in reality up to this point. It’s all based on this “self” that has likes and dislikes, etc. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2019, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/persistent-obsession/843669/100 "2019-12-25T03:11:14Z")
> [@Machinaforce](#): > > You asked “so what” and in this case the so what is challenging what I take to be me and how I’ve lived and operated in reality up to this point. It’s all based on this “self” that has likes and dislikes, etc. But are the likes and dislikes still _there?_ I dislike the taste of cilantro, and I like the taste of chocolate. And if you slowly and patiently explain to me that such likes and dislikes aren’t truly mine — that they’re not _inherent_ to me, that they’re _external,_ that what I’ve been taking to be a self is just something in relation to other things — okay, for the sake of argument let’s go with that for just a moment; even so: what, then, will happen the _next_ time I taste cilantro and the next time I taste chocolate? Will “dislike” still result in one case? Will “like” still result in the other case? _Is that still unchanged?_ [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/persistent-obsession/843669.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/persistent-obsession/843669.md?page=6)