# Person openly carrying an AR-15. Reasonable articulable suspicion of crime? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 27, 2018, 10:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/person-openly-carrying-an-ar-15-reasonable-articulable-suspicion-of-crime/823583 "2018-10-27T10:00:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2018, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/person-openly-carrying-an-ar-15-reasonable-articulable-suspicion-of-crime/823583/221 "2018-10-30T20:49:00Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > Yeah, it is a suggestion that I have made a few times on these boards. Akin to “sex ed.”, your parents could opt you out of it, if they so chose, but it would be offered in public schools, at different age groups, where kindergarten is pretty much “If you see an unattended gun, don’t touch it, get away from it, and tell an adult.”, with gun handling and shooting coming later. Yeah, no. Make it like drivers ed, sure: a completely optional class that you have to opt into that is held partially or (in the case of guns) entirely off-school-grounds, sure. If you can get there to be actual consequences for failing it, even better! But make it a class by default is required without specific opt-out? Ha, no. And have it be _a standard class that’s taught every year from kindergarten on?_ Putting aside that there’s not enough content on the subject to fill a class unless you’re breaking down and rebuilding antiaircraft weaponry by the fifth grade, the notion that we’re normalizing weaponry usage for our little child soldiers is horrifying. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2018, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/person-openly-carrying-an-ar-15-reasonable-articulable-suspicion-of-crime/823583/222 "2018-10-30T21:03:01Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > You call the ability to buy as many guns as you want from a list of 700 types “severely limited”? Yes. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2018, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/person-openly-carrying-an-ar-15-reasonable-articulable-suspicion-of-crime/823583/223 "2018-10-30T21:32:18Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > Not on school grounds, I trust? … You could do a lot of it on school grounds, and then have a range day of “practical application”, not unlike how driver’s ed typically has a classroom portion and a driving practice portion. In the classroom you could review relevant gun laws (like, “hey, kids aren’t allowed to possess these at school, so if you see / hear about one, tell a teacher”) and use inert plastic models to explain the basic components and function of a firearm and practice safe handling. You wouldn’t need to have functional firearms or live ammunition in the classroom. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2018, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/person-openly-carrying-an-ar-15-reasonable-articulable-suspicion-of-crime/823583/224 "2018-10-30T21:38:08Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > You could do a lot of it on school grounds, and then have a range day of “practical application”, not unlike how driver’s ed typically has a classroom portion and a driving practice portion. In the classroom you could review relevant gun laws (like, “hey, kids aren’t allowed to possess these at school, so if you see / hear about one, tell a teacher”) and use inert plastic models to explain the basic components and function of a firearm and practice safe handling. You wouldn’t need to have functional firearms or live ammunition in the classroom. That’d work. See?! I can be reasonable! ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2018, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/person-openly-carrying-an-ar-15-reasonable-articulable-suspicion-of-crime/823583/225 "2018-10-30T21:39:59Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > So your point is that gun laws are racist? No, my point is that when legislatures make laws based on gut feelings you often end up with bad laws. I’m strongly in favor of gun control legislation, but I want it to be enacted with thoughtful consideration. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2018, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/person-openly-carrying-an-ar-15-reasonable-articulable-suspicion-of-crime/823583/226 "2018-10-30T21:46:28Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > Yeah, no. Make it like drivers ed, sure: a completely optional class that you have to opt into that is held partially or (in the case of guns) entirely off-school-grounds, sure. If you can get there to be actual consequences for failing it, even better! > > But make it a class by default is required without specific opt-out? Ha, no. And have it be _a standard class that’s taught every year from kindergarten on?_ Putting aside that there’s not enough content on the subject to fill a class unless you’re breaking down and rebuilding antiaircraft weaponry by the fifth grade, the notion that we’re normalizing weaponry usage for our little child soldiers is horrifying. You know how many kids shoot themselves or other kids because they don’t know that basic safety instructions about a gun? I’m for making it as close to universal and mandatory as possible. Kids are curious, and if you put a gun in their hand in a safe environment, they are less likely to play with their parent’s gun, or a gun they found in the couch cushions at their friend’s house. I said nothing about “every year”, though it is probably not a bad idea to have at least an annual update on safety. It’s not like it would be a whole year long, it doesn’t even have to be a week, a few hours on one or two days is all that is really necessary. The right fought against teaching kindergarten sex ed, because they thought that that meant they were being taught how to have sex, rather than how to recognize and report being molested. Same thing here, I am proposing something that will give children knowledge to keep themselves safer, so avoid objecting to it on the grounds that we are teaching kids how to shoot. Avoiding talking about guns as a way of protecting kids against them is probably going to be about as successful as teaching abstinence only as a way of preventing pregnancies and STDs. ---
**Author:** ![WreckingCrew](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wreckingcrew/32/4080_2.png) [@WreckingCrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WreckingCrew)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2018, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/person-openly-carrying-an-ar-15-reasonable-articulable-suspicion-of-crime/823583/227 "2018-10-30T21:54:39Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > \*\*I didnt say that. \*\* > > The only difference between a “deer rifle” and a “assault weapon” are cosmetic differences. > You certainly can (and many people have) use a AR15 for hunting deer. > In fact, it is you that can’t tell the difference, not knowing anything about calibers, range, muzzle velocity, and so forth. You make a fantastic point here. I can’t tell the difference between a legal rifle and an illegal one. Therefore, if I see anyone walking down the street carrying a rifle, I shall inform the police and let them use their expertise to determine if it is legal or not. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2018, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/person-openly-carrying-an-ar-15-reasonable-articulable-suspicion-of-crime/823583/228 "2018-10-30T21:57:20Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > You know how many kids shoot themselves or other kids because they don’t know that basic safety instructions about a gun? > > I’m for making it as close to universal and mandatory as possible. Kids are curious, and if you put a gun in their hand in a safe environment, they are less likely to play with their parent’s gun, or a gun they found in the couch cushions at their friend’s house. > > I said nothing about “every year”, though it is probably not a bad idea to have at least an annual update on safety. It’s not like it would be a whole year long, it doesn’t even have to be a week, a few hours on one or two days is all that is really necessary. > > The right fought against teaching kindergarten sex ed, because they thought that that meant they were being taught how to have sex, rather than how to recognize and report being molested. > > Same thing here, I am proposing something that will give children knowledge to keep themselves safer, so avoid objecting to it on the grounds that we are teaching kids how to shoot. > > Avoiding talking about guns as a way of protecting kids against them is probably going to be about as successful as teaching abstinence only as a way of preventing pregnancies and STDs. I have strong doubts that a classroom environment would be able to strongly implant gun safety into a young child in any brief period of time. It _could_ teach them how to flip off the safety, though, and if you let them handle one make them think they know what they’re doing. Show off your cool skills for your friends, kids! Also, why does your argument not apply to cars as well? Kids can in theory steal their parents keys’ and attempt to joyride. Why doesn’t that happen? Oh, right, because parents keep a closer eye on their car keys than they do their damn guns. _Couch cushions??_ ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2018, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/person-openly-carrying-an-ar-15-reasonable-articulable-suspicion-of-crime/823583/229 "2018-10-30T22:15:53Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > I have strong doubts that a classroom environment would be able to strongly implant gun safety into a young child in any brief period of time. It _could_ teach them how to flip off the safety, though, and if you let them handle one make them think they know what they’re doing. Show off your cool skills for your friends, kids! Did you learn fire safety in elementary school? I remember being given lighters and matches. I remember being told to not play with them, or with fire. I didn’t play with them until I joined boy scouts. > [@](#): > > Also, why does your argument not apply to cars as well? Kids can in theory steal their parents keys’ and attempt to joyride. Why doesn’t that happen? Oh, right, because parents keep a closer eye on their car keys than they do their damn guns. There is that too. But, there is also the fact that then they have to take those keys, take them out to the car, start the car, put it into gear, then they can start causing problems. Lotta work for a 6 year old. The moment they touch a gun, they can start causing problems. > [@](#): > > _Couch cushions??_ [Yes,](https://www.miamiherald.com/news/local/crime/article220727840.html)[couch](https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2015/11/30/georgia-6-year-old-dead-finds-gun-in-couch-cushion-fatally-shoots-herself/?utm_term=.60485821884b) [cushions.](https://www.usnews.com/news/national-news/articles/2018-06-26/child-fires-gun-found-in-couch-cushions-in-ikea) ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2018, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/person-openly-carrying-an-ar-15-reasonable-articulable-suspicion-of-crime/823583/230 "2018-10-30T22:28:12Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > Did you learn fire safety in elementary school? I remember being given lighters and matches. I remember being told to not play with them, or with fire. I didn’t play with them until I joined boy scouts. I do not recall being given matches and lighters in elementary school, no. Could just be my bad memory, but I honestly don’t think it happened. We _were_ taught how to exit the building if the alarm went off, though. > [@k9bfriender](#): > > There is that too. But, there is also the fact that then they have to take those keys, take them out to the car, start the car, put it into gear, then they can start causing problems. Lotta work for a 6 year old. > > The moment they touch a gun, they can start causing problems. I am firmly of the opinion that parents who keep guns in their couch cushions should take the time and go to the effort of carefully teaching their children gun safety. I mean, they probably _can_ be taught it, by the time they’re eight or so.(?) I just don’t think school is the place to try and do that - particularly since there are a nontrivial number of parents who would be apoplectic at the idea that you’re teaching their children to play with guns. > [@k9bfriender](#): > > [Yes,](https://www.miamiherald.com/news/local/crime/article220727840.html)[couch](https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2015/11/30/georgia-6-year-old-dead-finds-gun-in-couch-cushion-fatally-shoots-herself/?utm_term=.60485821884b) [cushions.](https://www.usnews.com/news/national-news/articles/2018-06-26/child-fires-gun-found-in-couch-cushions-in-ikea) Yeah, letting every damn idiot keep and bear arms is just a _super_ idea. _Thanks_ founding fathers. Can’t we just make an amendment to have people get licensed for the things, dammit? We do that for cars! And for quite a lot of people, losing their cars would have a much greater direct impact on their life than losing their guns. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2018, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/person-openly-carrying-an-ar-15-reasonable-articulable-suspicion-of-crime/823583/231 "2018-10-30T22:41:55Z")
> [@Telemark](#): > > No, my point is that when legislatures make laws based on gut feelings you often end up with bad laws. I’m strongly in favor of gun control legislation, but I want it to be enacted with thoughtful consideration. Were the actions of the Black Panthers something that should have been stopped through legislation not motivated by racism? Do you think that, if the gun legislation passed with a more benign motivation, the Black Panthers would have been more comfortable leaving the safety of their communities in the hands of the people who passed the legislation? I don’t think so. Further, I think the fact that they passed the racially motivated legislation is proof that the Black Panthers were wise to take up arms in self-defense. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2018, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/person-openly-carrying-an-ar-15-reasonable-articulable-suspicion-of-crime/823583/232 "2018-10-30T23:54:31Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > You call the ability to buy as many guns as you want from a list of 700 types “severely limited”? An absolutist, opposed to any sort of discussion whatsoever, would think so, yes. An easier way to tell them is the use of the terms “slippery slope” or “gun grabbers”. No point in engaging someone who refuses to engage, or try to discuss something with people who refuse to discuss anything but their own zealotry. It isn’t a reasoned position at all, but an emotional one. All we can do is try to contain them for the good of us all. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2018, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/person-openly-carrying-an-ar-15-reasonable-articulable-suspicion-of-crime/823583/233 "2018-10-30T23:55:57Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > You certainly can (and many people have) use a AR15 for hunting deer. The same people who’d use an RPG if they could get one, right? > [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > So that’s a “no” on the hunting experience question then? So you’re refusing to admit the point but can’t make yourself say so to me, right? ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2018, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/person-openly-carrying-an-ar-15-reasonable-articulable-suspicion-of-crime/823583/234 "2018-10-30T23:59:27Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > … So you’re refusing to admit the point but can’t make yourself say so to me, right? What point? I asked you if you had any hunting experience, and you refused to answer, but your posts on the subject betray an extreme ignorance. What should we conclude from this? ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2018, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/person-openly-carrying-an-ar-15-reasonable-articulable-suspicion-of-crime/823583/235 "2018-10-31T00:00:15Z")
It’s okay. We both know. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2018, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/person-openly-carrying-an-ar-15-reasonable-articulable-suspicion-of-crime/823583/236 "2018-10-31T00:02:44Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > It’s okay. We both know. 😉 No, we don’t both know. I haven’t seen you make anything even approaching a coherent point in this thread, so I don’t have a clue what you’re referring to. AFAICT, it’s just jibberish. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2018, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/person-openly-carrying-an-ar-15-reasonable-articulable-suspicion-of-crime/823583/237 "2018-10-31T00:04:45Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Were the actions of the Black Panthers something that should have been stopped through legislation not motivated by racism? > > Do you think that, if the gun legislation passed with a more benign motivation, the Black Panthers would have been more comfortable leaving the safety of their communities in the hands of the people who passed the legislation? I don’t think so. Further, I think the fact that they passed the racially motivated legislation is proof that the Black Panthers were wise to take up arms in self-defense. I think we’re actually on the same page here, I’m not sure what point you’re trying to make. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2018, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/person-openly-carrying-an-ar-15-reasonable-articulable-suspicion-of-crime/823583/238 "2018-10-31T00:07:22Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > So, you are saying that you don’t think that there are any substantial differences between a deer rifle and an AR-15. I can point out over a half dozen. > > I could use it for opening my beer too, that’s not the issue. The issue is, would you use a deer rifle for combat? > You are the one that is stating that they are the same, while also stating that they are different. I’m not the confused one here. I know the difference, and can point it out and articulate it. You are the one that is claiming ignorance. Go ahead. Do it. It’s not caliber. It’s not action type, as three popular deer rifles are semi-autos. It is not magazine capacity, since not every state has such limitations and the one that do allow for quick changes between. And all the rest are cosmetic. Yes, since the Remington Model 700 bolt action rifle is a standard issue sniper weapon in the USA armed service. And, I’d have no problem hunting deer with a AR 15- with a reduced magazine. Other than cosmetic issues,\* as I pointed out by quoting the actual laws-\* there is no “bright line” dividing what is a hunting weapon vs a “assault weapon”. If there were lawmakers wouldn’t have any issue defining one. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2018, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/person-openly-carrying-an-ar-15-reasonable-articulable-suspicion-of-crime/823583/239 "2018-10-31T00:09:10Z")
> [@WreckingCrew](#): > > You make a fantastic point here. I can’t tell the difference between a legal rifle and an illegal one. Therefore, if I see anyone walking down the street carrying a rifle, I shall inform the police and let them use their expertise to determine if it is legal or not. Well, since assault weapons aren’t illegal in Right to carry states, there are no illegals ones to call the police about. It is\* amazing \*the depth of ignorance in the gun grabbers. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2018, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/person-openly-carrying-an-ar-15-reasonable-articulable-suspicion-of-crime/823583/240 "2018-10-31T00:10:44Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > The same people who’d use an RPG if they could get one, right? No, since RPGs are illegal in the USA, they are very inaccurate and they wouldnt leave any edible meat. They arent any good as anti personnel weapons. It is amazing the depth of ignorance in the gun grabbers. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/person-openly-carrying-an-ar-15-reasonable-articulable-suspicion-of-crime/823583.md?page=11) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/person-openly-carrying-an-ar-15-reasonable-articulable-suspicion-of-crime/823583.md?page=13)