# Person openly carrying an AR-15. Reasonable articulable suspicion of crime? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 27, 2018, 10:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/person-openly-carrying-an-ar-15-reasonable-articulable-suspicion-of-crime/823583 "2018-10-27T10:00:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2018, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/person-openly-carrying-an-ar-15-reasonable-articulable-suspicion-of-crime/823583/21 "2018-10-27T16:13:07Z")
> [@Flyer](#): > > Openly carrying a gun is very nearly an iron-clad guarantee that the person in question is NOT planning to commit a crime. There have been a lot of times where a person openly carrying a gun been about to start shooting people in some public place. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2018, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/person-openly-carrying-an-ar-15-reasonable-articulable-suspicion-of-crime/823583/22 "2018-10-27T16:17:04Z")
> [@Flyer](#): > > Most criminals are smart Bullshit. To take just one example, folks who are planning on going out in a blaze of glory don’t always hide their weaponry. The OP mentions videos of people testing their right to open carry. I know this is a bit of a hijack, but it’s an honest question: are there any videos of people who _aren’t_ white doing this? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2018, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/person-openly-carrying-an-ar-15-reasonable-articulable-suspicion-of-crime/823583/23 "2018-10-27T16:35:24Z")
Good discussion in Pinner v. State, an Indiana Supreme Court case that draws on the reasoning in Florida v JL. The answer is no: the mere display of a legally carried firearm is not reasonable articulable suspicion. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2018, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/person-openly-carrying-an-ar-15-reasonable-articulable-suspicion-of-crime/823583/24 "2018-10-27T16:45:46Z")
> [@DavidwithanR](#): > > Solving this situation through convoluted misapplication of current US laws might be the smartest thing in the very short term, but changing the law to make the law reasonable (which it currently isn’t) is the real first step. The US gathering the courage to change the 2nd amendment to its constitution to reflect reason and reality is the only permanently useful solution. I’d agree that my logic was convoluted if it weren’t for the fact that in most of these situations that we’re talking about the people were very explicitly trying to intimidate people with the gun on their backs. But I certainly agree we should amend that archaic piece of idiocy. Not that I think the current federal government is really in the mood for doing anything reasonable. ---
**Author:** ![Patch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a183cd/32.png) [@Patch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Patch)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2018, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/person-openly-carrying-an-ar-15-reasonable-articulable-suspicion-of-crime/823583/25 "2018-10-27T16:54:32Z")
> [@DavidwithanR](#): > > There is no reason to OWN that gun other than a murder plot. Openly carrying it is not even required; merely wanting to buy it is sufficient for questioning. :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Batano](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/b487fb/32.png) [@Batano](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Batano)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2018, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/person-openly-carrying-an-ar-15-reasonable-articulable-suspicion-of-crime/823583/26 "2018-10-27T17:34:27Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Good discussion in Pinner v. State, an Indiana Supreme Court case that draws on the reasoning in Florida v JL. > > The answer is no: the mere display of a legally carried firearm is not reasonable articulable suspicion. Would carrying an axe or sword be grounds for reasonable suspicion? I once got a bunch of weird looks when I came into the city from the countryside to get my axe handle repaired. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2018, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/person-openly-carrying-an-ar-15-reasonable-articulable-suspicion-of-crime/823583/27 "2018-10-27T18:04:06Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > … Do I need to turn in my conservative card for having this opinion? Yes … errr … maybe. Truthfully, I’ve got somewhat mixed feelings on this too, and I don’t think one rule will fit all circumstances. On the one hand, if we said, “yes”, I could imagine a few panty-twisted liberal bed-wetters parking themselves outside of a gun range / gun store and calling the cops on everyone that walks out with a rifle, just to harass them by proxy via the police. The cops aren’t justified in stopping all those people, IMHO. Likewise if there’s some announced “Second Amendment Rally” or something and hundreds of people are showing up to protest / support some government policy at the capitol building, many with scary guns. The cops shouldn’t have free rein to detain and investigate everyone open-carrying a rifle in those circumstances either. OTOH, I’m not sure a hard and fast “no, Terry stop is never allowed for the mere open possession of a long gun” is the best rule either. There might be circumstances where it would make sense and the police ought to have some latitude to investigate (spitballing here, but something like pacing back and forth on the sidewalk outside of George Soros’ house). One guy walking down a street is on the border in my mind. It would depend on the particulars. Is it the middle of the night or daylight? Is the gun cased / slung / carried in-hand? Is the guy wearing body armor and a balaclava or dressed in jeans and a T-shirt (or hunting camo on a rural road). Is the street residential or commercial. Is it near a gun store / range? ---
**Author:** ![E-DUB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/e-dub/32/403_2.png) [@E-DUB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-DUB)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2018, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/person-openly-carrying-an-ar-15-reasonable-articulable-suspicion-of-crime/823583/28 "2018-10-27T18:13:15Z")
Don’t they tell us: “If you see something, say something.”? Guy walking down the street with AR-15=something. ---
**Author:** ![UnwittingAmericans](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/d9b06d/32.png) [@UnwittingAmericans](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UnwittingAmericans)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2018, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/person-openly-carrying-an-ar-15-reasonable-articulable-suspicion-of-crime/823583/29 "2018-10-27T18:15:42Z")
Whatever. News organizations are derelict in not obtaining and publishing crime scene photos of mass shootings. Legislatures that suppress the release of same are complicit in the ongoing slaughter. ---
**Author:** ![Crafter\_Man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crafter_man/32/458_2.png) [@Crafter\_Man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crafter_Man)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2018, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/person-openly-carrying-an-ar-15-reasonable-articulable-suspicion-of-crime/823583/30 "2018-10-27T18:23:14Z")
> [@DavidwithanR](#): > > There is no reason to OWN that gun other than a murder plot. I own several AR-15s. Therefore, it means I am plotting murder? :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2018, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/person-openly-carrying-an-ar-15-reasonable-articulable-suspicion-of-crime/823583/31 "2018-10-27T18:31:54Z")
> [@DavidwithanR](#): > > There is no reason to OWN that gun other than a murder plot. Openly carrying it is not even required; merely wanting to buy it is sufficient for questioning. This post is sheer is ignorance on display. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2018, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/person-openly-carrying-an-ar-15-reasonable-articulable-suspicion-of-crime/823583/32 "2018-10-27T18:37:25Z")
> [@Flyer](#): > > Most criminals are smart enough to realize that advertising their plans to commit a crime is not a good idea. The one big thing I learned from being on a grand jury a number of years back was that most criminals are dumber than shit. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2018, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/person-openly-carrying-an-ar-15-reasonable-articulable-suspicion-of-crime/823583/33 "2018-10-27T18:38:57Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > This post is sheer is ignorance on display. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2018, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/person-openly-carrying-an-ar-15-reasonable-articulable-suspicion-of-crime/823583/34 "2018-10-27T18:44:39Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > 😃 😉 I tried to add a sheer, and didn’t proofread. I’d rather have my grammatical error than that deeply-flawed understanding about firearms. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2018, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/person-openly-carrying-an-ar-15-reasonable-articulable-suspicion-of-crime/823583/35 "2018-10-27T18:48:19Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > This post is sheer is ignorance on display. But more seriously, what an AR-15 or similar weapon is good for is to kill a lot of people in a hurry. That’s pretty much its **only** use. Please explain to me why civilized persons should not regard anyone who owns or desires to own such a weapon as someone who doesn’t belong in a civilized society. In response to **Crafter\_Man** , your ownership of AR-15s or similar weapons doesn’t mean you’re plotting murder. However, **your** desire to retain a right to ownership of such weapons **enables** those who would use them to slaughter large numbers of their fellow citizens in a short time, as happened just this morning. **You** make **their** atrocities possible. Congratulations. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2018, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/person-openly-carrying-an-ar-15-reasonable-articulable-suspicion-of-crime/823583/36 "2018-10-27T18:51:09Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > There have been a lot of times where a person openly carrying a gun been about to start shooting people in some public place. As a bystander with incomplete information, the question isn’t: is the probability over 50% that the person with a prominently-held rifle likely to commit a crime? It’s: when I see someone prominently holding a rifle, am I significantly likelier than normal to be on the verge of witnessing, or falling victim to, a crime? It may be that 99.99% of the time when you see someone with a rifle, they’re not about to commit a mass shooting. But it also may be that 99.9999% of the time when I see someone without a rifle, they’re not about to commit a mass shooting. If my risk of being in the presence of a mass shooter just went up by a couple orders of magnitude, it’s rational for me to be wigged out. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2018, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/person-openly-carrying-an-ar-15-reasonable-articulable-suspicion-of-crime/823583/37 "2018-10-27T18:54:14Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > But more seriously, what an AR-15 or similar weapon is good for is to kill a lot of people in a hurry. That’s pretty much its **only** use. Please explain to me why civilized persons should not regard anyone who owns or desires to own such a weapon as someone who doesn’t belong in a civilized society. … I disagree. They’re useful for hunting small game, they’re useful for recreation. They’re very modular and can be adjusted to suit the needs of a wide range of shooters (different grips, stocks, fore ends, optics / iron sights, etc. They are, for rifles, light-weight and maneuverable which makes them easy to use in a situation like home defense, etc. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2018, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/person-openly-carrying-an-ar-15-reasonable-articulable-suspicion-of-crime/823583/38 "2018-10-27T19:00:26Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > … However, **your** desire to retain a right to ownership of such weapons **enables** those who would use them to slaughter large numbers of their fellow citizens in a short time, as happened just this morning. > > **You** make **their** atrocities possible. Congratulations. Would you say that airline passengers made 9/11 possible? Technically, it’s probably true, but I think you’d probably recognize that’s a fairly asinine thing to say, right? ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2018, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/person-openly-carrying-an-ar-15-reasonable-articulable-suspicion-of-crime/823583/39 "2018-10-27T19:12:41Z")
Seems like the main difference is carrying vs. brandishing. if someone has a pistol holstered in their belt, I wouldn’t call the cops or feel alarmed. But if someone is holding out their pistol with both hands in a supermarket, I’d call 911 ASAP and/or assume a mass shooting is imminent. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2018, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/person-openly-carrying-an-ar-15-reasonable-articulable-suspicion-of-crime/823583/40 "2018-10-27T19:21:17Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > The OP mentions videos of people testing their right to open carry. I know this is a bit of a hijack, but it’s an honest question: are there any videos of people who _aren’t_ white doing this? [There sure are](https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=black+open+carry). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/person-openly-carrying-an-ar-15-reasonable-articulable-suspicion-of-crime/823583.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/person-openly-carrying-an-ar-15-reasonable-articulable-suspicion-of-crime/823583.md?page=3)