# Person openly carrying an AR-15. Reasonable articulable suspicion of crime? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 27, 2018, 10:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/person-openly-carrying-an-ar-15-reasonable-articulable-suspicion-of-crime/823583 "2018-10-27T10:00:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2018, 4:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/person-openly-carrying-an-ar-15-reasonable-articulable-suspicion-of-crime/823583/101 "2018-10-28T04:19:07Z")
> [@PhillyGuy](#): > > Surely you realize that before the 1994 assault weapons ban, hardly anyone owned the guns that were then banned. That’s why it was politically possible to pass the ban, and also one of several reasons why it would be absurd to expect a statistically measurable effect. Yes, that’s one of the many reasons it was a dumbass law. I do, however, give it credit for helping raise the profile and popularity of AR-15s and its cousins. I have little doubt that a good number of Americans would not have purchased them without liberals like **RTFirefly** calling for their ban. ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2018, 4:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/person-openly-carrying-an-ar-15-reasonable-articulable-suspicion-of-crime/823583/102 "2018-10-28T04:20:17Z")
FWIW, I think that unless you have immediate plans to use it, any long gun carried in public should be cased or scabbarded. I don’t mind holstered handguns, but I’d be worried if someone was walking around with a pistol in hand. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2018, 4:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/person-openly-carrying-an-ar-15-reasonable-articulable-suspicion-of-crime/823583/103 "2018-10-28T04:23:47Z")
> [@JRDelirious](#): > > Going back to the original question I do think there is as \*\*UltraVires \*\*and \*\*HurricaneDitka \*\*discussed back in page 1 space for a criterion of circumstantial appropriateness. Walking by the side of a rural road, slung across the body on the back? Probably no big deal. Middle of a main city avenue, carrying at port arms? Maybe you got some splainin’ to do. > > Not too long ago there was a guy who walked around the landside of the Atlanta airport terminal …with an AR-15 loaded with a 100-round drum just to make the point it was all legal. Well, that being true does not negate that it was an extremely obnoxious way of making his point. All things considered, this display at the airport should at the very least get the authorities to come up and have a “all right, Fudd, what’s up?” chat. Which is apparently what they did and nobody had to be arrested. > > _However,_ that guy and others like him seem to have as their particular quest the normalization of _unlimited, unrestricted_ open carry, arguing that it’s up to the other people to get over it. Their clear aspiration is a society where they are not to be ever asked “dude, what’s with the weaponry”. But in reality, all rights are subject to reasonable rules of time, place and manner. If I set up a stack of amplifiers on a flatbed to play a tape of my objections to a tax raise at 120 decibels while driving through a residential zone, I may get busted for disturbing the peace and that does not violate my freedom of speech. Yeah, well, like I said, in a urban area, carrying such a weapon means you’re jerk- but not (in the proper state, of course) a criminal. But yeah, to get back to the OP. Say you saw a man, carrying a AR15, shouldered or slung, in a urban area- in a state where open carrying is perfectly legal. Should you call 911? Should the police stop and question him? I think the answer has to be -\*\* No. \*\* Could you be concerned if it was in your neighborhood, and you didn’t know him? Sure, just like I am concerned if I see a strange car “cruising” up and down my suburban street. I might even note his lic #, perhaps mini-vid on my cellphone. But since what he is doing is 100% legal- I wouldn’t call 911. Now if there had been a spate of car break ins, reported as being done by “guys cruising slowing in the neighborhood”, then maybe. Just liek if you hear gunshots, then saw a guy with a Ak47 walking away. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2018, 4:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/person-openly-carrying-an-ar-15-reasonable-articulable-suspicion-of-crime/823583/104 "2018-10-28T04:24:35Z")
I’m not a fan of open carry long guns, but I don’t think it should be illegal because I don’t trust those opposed to guns to not use that as a launching point for further restrictions. I prefer social ostrtization than criminal penalties. As such it shouldn’t be considered grounds for Terry stop unless there are other circumstances that in conjunction would support one. A Terry stop for open carry would be silly - it checks for weapons when being temporarily detained - uh yeah, there are weapons. ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2018, 4:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/person-openly-carrying-an-ar-15-reasonable-articulable-suspicion-of-crime/823583/105 "2018-10-28T04:33:21Z")
I’m not well versed in these laws but if it’s legal to carry, then carrying at sling arms should not be suspicion of crime. OTOH carrying at port arms should be considered an imminent threat. I’m really not a fan of open carry of assault rifles and I wish it were illegal so we didn’t have to make such distinctions. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2018, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/person-openly-carrying-an-ar-15-reasonable-articulable-suspicion-of-crime/823583/106 "2018-10-28T04:41:25Z")
> [@HMS\_Irruncible](#): > > I’m not well versed in these laws but if it’s legal to carry, then carrying at sling arms should not be suspicion of crime. OTOH carrying at port arms should be considered an imminent threat. > > I’m really not a fan of open carry of assault rifles and I wish it were illegal so we didn’t have to make such distinctions. > [@](#): > > [a position in the manual of arms in which the rifle is held diagonally in front of the body with the muzzle pointing upward to the left](https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/port%20arms) This is what you’re talking about, right? I certainly see how it’s more aggressive than having the rifle slung across one’s back, but I wouldn’t consider it “an imminent threat” either. Someone pointing a rifle at me is a really damn imminent threat. [Someone with a rifle at low ready](https://static1.squarespace.com/static/57ad0720414fb5e8bfce06f5/t/57b40ba8579fb35ec20aefa8/1518509845628/?format=750w) is slightly less imminent. Someone carrying at port arms? That’s at least a step or two down the scale of “imminent threat”, although not quite as far as slung, which itself is not quite as far down the scale as cased. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2018, 6:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/person-openly-carrying-an-ar-15-reasonable-articulable-suspicion-of-crime/823583/107 "2018-10-28T06:40:19Z")
If I see you carrying an AR-15 across your back someplace where there are no varmints to hunt, targets to shoot, or insurgents to fight, I think it’s entirely reasonable to assume that you’re intending to threaten me. Essentially if there’s no other possible reason why you’re carrying the thing, then that’s the reason you’re carrying it. So if I were to see somebody carrying an AR-15 strapped across their back in my local supermarket, then yes, it’s an imminent threat, even if they’re not pointing it at anybody yet. ---
**Author:** ![pkbites](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pkbites/32/204_2.png) [@pkbites](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pkbites)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2018, 6:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/person-openly-carrying-an-ar-15-reasonable-articulable-suspicion-of-crime/823583/108 "2018-10-28T06:43:20Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > But doesn’t carrying a rifle give an officer a reasonable articulable suspicion that crime is afoot? In my state (Wisconsin) the answer is emphatically NO, and this is backed up by court precedent and statute. Unless I can show other extenuating factors I can not detain someone who is legally openly carrying a weapon. Simply openly carrying an AR-15 is not PC nor RS. I can talk to them if I wish, but I cannot force them to stop and talk to me. If they choose to keep walking while I’m talking to them there is nothing I can do about it. YMMV depending on where you are. ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2018, 7:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/person-openly-carrying-an-ar-15-reasonable-articulable-suspicion-of-crime/823583/109 "2018-10-28T07:48:59Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > No, it does not. They could be carrying for many reasons. Getting a reaction is just one. There are many places in the world where carrying a weapon is entirely normal. You are what is colloquially known among the special forces community as a “dumb fuck”. People who have a reasonable need to carry such weapons make a legitimate effort to conceal them unless they are in an actual war zone. Carrying an assault rifle (or the civilian equivalent thereof) in a casual context in a non-warfare state is done specificially to provoke a response. Stranger ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2018, 8:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/person-openly-carrying-an-ar-15-reasonable-articulable-suspicion-of-crime/823583/110 "2018-10-28T08:08:25Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > In the sense that it did not discernibly reduce the lethality or injuriousness of gun violence. What was its effect on deaths and injuries involving that particular class of weapon, and what was the effect when the ban lapsed in 2004? ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2018, 8:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/person-openly-carrying-an-ar-15-reasonable-articulable-suspicion-of-crime/823583/111 "2018-10-28T08:14:32Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Yes, that’s one of the many reasons it was a dumbass law. Hmmm…a law that **kept** assault weapons from getting into wider circulation in the first place was a bad idea. > [@](#): > > I do, however, give it credit for helping raise the profile and popularity of AR-15s and its cousins. I have little doubt that a good number of Americans would not have purchased them without liberals like **RTFirefly** calling for their ban. Seems like the **lifting** of the ban might’ve also had something to do with it. In fact, I have NO doubt that a good number of Americans would not have purchased them without conservatives like **HurricaneDitka** successfully ending the ban, because, y’know, it would have been illegal to purchase them. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2018, 10:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/person-openly-carrying-an-ar-15-reasonable-articulable-suspicion-of-crime/823583/112 "2018-10-28T10:07:00Z")
> [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](#): > > You are what is colloquially known among the special forces community as a “dumb fuck”. Ignorant, drivelsome, rubbish. You’ve clearly never been to Israel, for instance. ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2018, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/person-openly-carrying-an-ar-15-reasonable-articulable-suspicion-of-crime/823583/113 "2018-10-28T14:40:38Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > Ignorant, drivelsome, rubbish. You’ve clearly never been to Israel, for instance. Making use of that thesaurus, I see. The United States is not Israel, and reservists do not publically carry weapons on sling outside of training because the nation is not bordered in all (or indeed, any) sides by enemies dedicated to its eradication. I’ve been around firearms and those who have used them in professional contexts my whole life, and among such people the prevailing mentality os to avoid unnecessary display or presentation so as not to make others nervous or give false sense of imminent need. People who walk around parading their weapons in public _in the United States_ without reason are precipitators of angst and discomfort purely for their own gratification. Stranger ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2018, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/person-openly-carrying-an-ar-15-reasonable-articulable-suspicion-of-crime/823583/114 "2018-10-28T15:05:25Z")
> [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](#): > > You are what is colloquially known among the special forces community as a “dumb fuck”. People who have a reasonable need to carry such weapons make a legitimate effort to conceal them unless they are in an actual war zone. Carrying an assault rifle (or the civilian equivalent thereof) in a casual context in a non-warfare state is done specificially to provoke a response. > > Stranger Well, that one will earn you a warning. I don’t believe any explanation is needed. ---
**Author:** ![Translucent\_Daydream](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/translucent_daydream/32/16170_2.png) [@Translucent\_Daydream](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Translucent_Daydream)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2018, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/person-openly-carrying-an-ar-15-reasonable-articulable-suspicion-of-crime/823583/115 "2018-10-28T15:48:14Z")
I think there will be a lot of “golden calf” discussions at the pearly gates for a lot of 2nd ammendment enthusiasts. Those discussions may or may not go the way that the new arrivals to the pearly gates want. I say this as a owner of a Savage 12 gauge with ducks and stuff etched on it. I’m not a “proud” owner of it, much like I’m not really a “proud owner” of an Oldsmobile. Both are tools to do a thing. ---
**Author:** ![BeenJammin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/beenjammin/32/448_2.png) [@BeenJammin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BeenJammin)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2018, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/person-openly-carrying-an-ar-15-reasonable-articulable-suspicion-of-crime/823583/116 "2018-10-28T16:09:10Z")
> [@Translucent\_Daydream](#): > > …much like I’m not really a “proud owner” of an Oldsmobile. Both are tools to do a thing. This is why I never understood the whole assault rifle thing. Are the firearm “un-initiated” that naive they believe further obfuscation and complexity in the law(s) can possibly have any effect on gun violence? The simple fact the OP framed the discussion as such is telling. Military grade weaponry is clearly regulated in great detail, if you’d care to review ATF regs on explosives and so forth. The line(s) have long since been drawn. It’s legal to own guns. It’s illegal to murder people. There are always going to be murderers preferring guns. There’s always going to be mass murderers preferring bigger guns. At least the gas-guzzler taxes don’t effectively ban Ferraris. Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2018, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/person-openly-carrying-an-ar-15-reasonable-articulable-suspicion-of-crime/823583/117 "2018-10-28T16:35:06Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Yes Cool. > [@](#): > > No Really, I guess this is fodder for another thread, but really? You have no problem with someone getting behind the wheel of the car when they are drunk? I suppose if your idea of freedom is that you get to do anything you want to do, no matter how much danger it puts others into, then I can see that. If your argument is that .08 is too low, and that a more reasonable limit is .12 or something, that’s a debate we can have. If it is simply that we should simply allow people to take control of a car when they are under the influence of intoxicating substances, we simply have a complete breakdown of shared moral framework here. > [@](#): > > Some of them. I oppose others. As an ex-smoker who was a smoker at the time that many of these laws were put into place, I can agree. There are some laws that I think went overboard, but to the general effect, you do agree that some of the laws are acceptable. Is that because of the harm that it can potentially cause others? > [@](#): > > It’s not “a stretch to consider”. I already know that a very vocal minority would like to ban guns. and a vocal minority of your political side would like to ban Muslims. Debating based on what a vocal minority says, rather than what the person that you are talking to says, gets us no where. > [@](#): > > The position **RTFirefly** is arguing in this thread is that we should impose a total ban on AR-15s. Presumably he’d also lump similar firearms into this ban as well, although he hasn’t exactly delineated where he would draw the line. Presumably? Presuming the position of someone else’s argument is a poor way of arguing against someone who isn’t making that argument at all. I see that most people who are for a full ban are pushed there by the gun rights advocates who declare that nothing short of a full ban will have any effect. I personally am in favor of keeping the right to bear arms among well qualified individuals, but I can be pushed out of that position into a full ban as well, if I am convinced by your side that there is no room for reasonable regulations and restrictions that will lead to a lowering of gun violence. > [@](#): > > I accept some restrictions on firearm ownership. We already have quite a few. I don’t think the good caused by banning AR-15s outweighs the bad. I don’t either. But restricting AR-15s and AR-15 style rifles to people who have demonstrated a certain level of responsibility and mental stability would be much more good than bad. I would only support a complete restriction on AR-15 style rifles if it were insisted that having to show responsibility before owning and carrying one was just too much work for the gun owners. > [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Yes, that’s one of the many reasons it was a dumbass law. It was a terrible bill because the gun advocates prevented it from actually having any teeth.they ended up only being able to “ban” certain cosmetic features that gun manufacturers immediately got around. You know the Beltway sniper? He used a legally obtained AR-15 style rifle that had enough cosmetic changes to get around the Assault Weapon Ban. Maybe instead of fighting against legislation and then complaining that you managed to make it ineffective, we work together to come up with ideas to lower the gun violence? > [@](#): > > I do, however, give it credit for helping raise the profile and popularity of AR-15s and its cousins. I have little doubt that a good number of Americans would not have purchased them without liberals like **RTFirefly** calling for their ban. So, you are making another “make the liberals cry” motive? These are expensive guns, you know, how much are you willing to pay per tear? I would say that what has really encouraged people to go out and buy them is the mass shootings that they are used for. If you look at gun sales you see that they spike up quite a bit after someone uses their gun to kill a bunch of people. So, while you may enjoy the idea that people are just buying these guns to upset liberals, they are actually being inspired to buy these guns by people who are using them to kill people. It’s a great sales pitch, isn’t it? 11 dead, 6 wounded. What a great gun! ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2018, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/person-openly-carrying-an-ar-15-reasonable-articulable-suspicion-of-crime/823583/118 "2018-10-28T17:09:40Z")
> [@pkbites](#): > > In my state (Wisconsin) the answer is emphatically NO, and this is backed up by court precedent and statute. > > Unless I can show other extenuating factors I can not detain someone who is legally openly carrying a weapon. Simply openly carrying an AR-15 is not PC nor RS. I can talk to them if I wish, but I cannot force them to stop and talk to me. If they choose to keep walking while I’m talking to them there is nothing I can do about it. > > YMMV depending on where you are. Cite? I don’t dispute that carrying a pistol is not RS for a crime. It is not. But a rifle? As was mentioned before, crime detection is noticing something unusual and then investigating. Even if that “unusual” thing is otherwise perfectly legal. Just like in the Terry case, nothing the officer observed was in and of itself illegal, but sufficiently suspicious. AFAIK, there is no law against carrying an axe or a chain saw down the street. Wouldn’t you look at a guy carrying an axe down the sidewalk or into a restaurant as something needing further investigation? There are many, many things which are absolutely legal, but nonetheless suspicious. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2018, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/person-openly-carrying-an-ar-15-reasonable-articulable-suspicion-of-crime/823583/119 "2018-10-28T18:09:30Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > If I see you carrying an AR-15 across your back someplace where there are no varmints to hunt, targets to shoot, or insurgents to fight, I think it’s entirely reasonable to assume that you’re intending to threaten me. Essentially if there’s no other possible reason why you’re carrying the thing, then that’s the reason you’re carrying it. So if I were to see somebody carrying an AR-15 strapped across their back in my local supermarket, then yes, it’s an imminent threat, even if they’re not pointing it at anybody yet. Why? I mean sure, he’s a jerk show off. But would you call the police on a guy with a handgun strapped to his belt in a holster? ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2018, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/person-openly-carrying-an-ar-15-reasonable-articulable-suspicion-of-crime/823583/120 "2018-10-28T18:13:39Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > In what sense didn’t it work? It was heavily limited and gutted to make sure it wouldn’t have much effect, thereby enabling the gun lobby to say “See? It doesn’t work!” A semiautomatic rifle is a good tool to\* hunt small game\*? :rolleyes: [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/person-openly-carrying-an-ar-15-reasonable-articulable-suspicion-of-crime/823583.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/person-openly-carrying-an-ar-15-reasonable-articulable-suspicion-of-crime/823583.md?page=7)