What would your reaction be if the cops say “That’s nice dear, but it’s perfectly legal, have a nice day”?
I’d consider it “brandishing” if it’s not slung or on his back.
Good examples-Thank you.
In the OP UV asked if openly carrying a rifle was sufficient for a Terry stop. He believes it is. While most cops would like to able to stop and question such a person, (I mean, its common sense, right?) the law doesn’t allow it. The law requires an articulable suspicion that the person has committed, is committing, or is about to commit a crime. I fail to see a way to articulate the suspicion based on simply (and legally) carrying the weapon. “Because… guns!” is not enough. I’d ask UltraVires to articulate what would make him believe that a rifle-carrier was about to commit a crime. Personally, I think that people who go around with an ARs on their backs are jackasses but the police have their collective hands tied.
“I just wanted you around in case he does do something crazy. I mean, crazier than wearing his rifle to the supermarket, which is already clearly insane, but legal.”
(Note: I actually wouldn’t call the cops on such a dude myself, but I would get out of dodge, because the asshole clearly has threatening intentions if he’s carrying a rifle outside of a situation where it’s normal to show off your rifle.)
What if that doesn’t match the legal definition of “brandishing”?
“Hello, police - there is someone brandishing a rifle!”
“How is he brandishing it?”
“He is carrying it on his shoulder.”
“That’s not brandishing, and it isn’t against the law.”
“But I’m scared!”
'sigh - OK, we’ll have a talk with him."
Officer goes up to the guy carrying. “Pardon me - I need to talk to you.”
Person Carrying: “No.”
Officer: “Stand where you are.”
PC: “My name is so-and-so, I live at such-and-such an address, and I was born on such-and-such a date. Am I free to go?”
Officer: “Why are you carrying that gun?”
PC: “No answer. Am I free to go?”
Officer: “We got a call from someone who feels threatened.”
PC: “Not my problem. Am I free to go?”
Officer: “Look, we just want everyone to feel safe. How about if you leave the gun at home next time?”
PC: “No. Am I free to go?”
Officer: “Why are you carrying the gun?”
PC: “OK, last time. I have given you my name and other identifying information. I am not answering any more questions, I have committed no crime, and I don’t consent to any searches. Am I free to go?”
Officer: “I am just trying to find out what is going on here.”
PC: “I’ll take that as a Yes. Have a nice day.” Person Carrying walks away.
Regards,
Shodan
PC: “Why are you following me, officer?”
Officer: “Who said I’m following you?”
Well now I hate to break it to you, dear, but that is not the reaction I would get here. Multiple officers would respond. That may be foreign to you, but it is the reality here.
Again, nobody open carries here. Let me ask you this, if you saw someone carrying a rocket launcher down your street, would you say to yourself, “I’m sure there is nothing amiss here, they must have the proper permits and peaceful intentions.” Or would you think, that is odd, perhaps I should alert the authorities? A bit of hyperbole I realize, but that is the reaction people around here would have if someone were walking down the street with a rifle.
Finally, just to really drive the point home, I am a park ranger. We don’t have hunting where I work, but I have been around other parks during hunting season. So yes, I have seen people carrying their rifles to hunt. What they don’t do is keep carrying if they walk down the street to get some coffee. In fact doing so would likely be dangerous because walking into the local convince store carrying a rifle would likely result in the person behind the counter pulling out the gun under the counter thinking it was a stick up, because they had never seen someone walk in carrying a gun with good intentions.
I invite you to try this experiment in Providence, RI. Please let me know when you are coming, because I love seeing all of those flashing lights.
It usually turns out different in real life because the other guys won’t stick to the script you wrote.
I’ve seen enough varied reactions to OC by police across the country that I don’t think one can definitively state how the police will react to a particular situation with certitude.
well, not literally nobody. That guy managed to buy some dog biscuits and a bottle of wine while OCing in RI. No gun pulled from under the counter, no multiple officers responding, etc.
I would think to myself “that must be one big-ass possum tearing up that guy’s trash”.
Not on that day. If you dig deeper on line you will find that the gentleman in question has been stopped by police on numerous occasions. I don’t even need to click the link, I know exactly whom you are referring too. This isn’t the first time I have had this discussion on this board about open carry in RI.
But fine, don’t believe me. Come to RI and carry your rifle, and be prepared to meet some new friends. Note, I never said that it is illegal to carry a long gun in RI, it just isn’t done. And doing so will draw the attention of the police. They will see it as suspicious behavior, and they will respond. You may find this foolish, and obviously you disagree but that is the culture here.
So, when you wrote “nobody open carries here” you already knew you were wrong?
I have no desire to go to Rhode Island (probably lucky for both of us) and very little desire to OC a long gun in almost all situations.
This is really gong to be a matter of opinion on what constitutes “imminent”, but for determining a threat, I see no usefully safe distinction between two-hand carry and actually aiming the weapon because it’s a quick and simple transition (speaking from long experience).
Of course not everyone is going to agree with what I call “usefully safe”, but if anyone’s asking me for a useful definition of brandishing, I feel like two-hand carry is a good responsible place to draw the line for long arms.
You got me. There is one guy here who open carries. Did you read the article you linked to, including the part that when he was being issued a carry permit, the people responsible for issuing the permit argued with both him and each other about whether he should be issued said permit, because they didn’t know the actual regs, because applications for carry permits are so rare.
Of course, while you are correct that you found someone who got a carry permit in RI, I will note that the site you linked to discusses this person getting an open carry handgun permit. It says nothing about long gun carry, which is the actual point of the OP here. So to get back to the question at hand here, yes I believe that someone carrying an AR 15 is suspicious and I would call the police. I would also expect a response from the police to my call because that is the local standard of my community.
And if I behave as described, by simply repeating over and over “I refuse to answer questions. Am I free to go?” what do you suggest the police do? They can’t arrest me without reasonable suspicion that I have committed a crime. Carrying a rifle is not a crime. Detain me more than briefly? “Briefly” doesn’t have a clear legal definition, but a Terry stop requires a reasonable, articulable suspicion that I am involved in a crime of some sort. Carrying a rifle is not a crime. If they tell me not to do it again, I will ignore them.
Should the police enforce local standards (as defined, apparently, by you) or the law, when they are in conflict?
Regards,
Shodan
Yes, it’s no great surprise to me that Rhode Islanders, even those responsible for issuing permits, are ignorant about gun laws. As for whether it’s common or not, I defer to your experience that it’s not common in Rhode Island. I have not argued otherwise. It was only a few years ago that the East Providence Police Department lost their CCW case in the Rhode Island Supreme Court.
Progress is slower in some states than others.
I never would have thought RI would have such a jackbooted totalitarian police culture. And I thought Florida was bad. Thanks for the heads up.
I think you’re being really hyperbolic; people don’t typically open carry around here either (I can speak for Austin, Houston and Dallas), and it would be unusual to an extreme to see anyone outside of a law enforcement officer* wearing or carrying a gun. I think I’ve seen ***ONE *** grumpy old fart wearing a pistol in a holster in real life, and a tiny handful of people on the news at various protests.
I suspect the real answer would be that if someone was doing something threatening with the gun, the cops would be called tout suite. But if they were just wearing it on their hip, or had it slung over their shoulder, or was just carrying it around, I think most people would react like this: “WTF does that guy have a rifle? Oh yeah, that’s legal now. <rolls eyes and shakes head>”
- The only time I’ve seen a person wearing a gun and really wondered what the heck was up was in about 1993 in College Station when this guy walks into the sandwich shop in a super-starched white dress shirt, tie, cowboy hat, black slacks and boots… and a discreet little Sig-Sauer automatic in a holster on his belt. He turned a little and saw the Texas Ranger badge. I remember thinking “Oh, well that makes sense. Holy shit, what’s a Ranger doing here? In the College Station Schlotzsky’s?”